My theory about hppd

[phaedrusattva]

"would not the discipline of the scientific spirit begin with this, no longer to permit oneself any convictions? Probably that is how it is. But one must still ask whether it is not the case that, *in order that this discipline could begin*, a conviction must have been there already, and even such a commanding and unconditional one that it sacrificed all other convictions for its own sake.

It is clear that science too rests on a faith; there is no science "without presuppositions." The question whether truth is needed must not only have been affirmed in advance, but affirmed to the extent that the principle, the faith, the conviction is expressed: "*nothing* is needed *more* than truth, and in relation to it everything else has only second-rate value."

...

Thus the question "Why science?" leads back to the moral problem, "For what end any morality at all" if life, nature, and history are "not moral"?...But one will have gathered what I am driving at, namely, that it always remains a *metaphysical faith* upon which our faith in science rests-that even devotees of knowledge today, we godless ones and anti-metaphysicians, still take *our* fire too from the flame which a faith thousands of years ago has kindled: that Christian faith, which was also Plato's faith, that God is truth, that truth is divine..."


-Nietzsche, from "The Gay Science"

 

[psood0nym]

Well, without getting too much into what this thread has become, the following two facts should tell us something.

HPPD is mitigated by:

1. benzodiazepines

2. sunglasses

HPPD is exacerbated by:

1. CNS arousal

2. stimulant drugs

Both of the mitigating factors tend to lower the amount of stimulation in the brain (unless an inhibitory circuit is inhibited by GABA). Benzodiazepines accomplish this through enhancing the activity of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, and sunglasses do it by decreasing the amplitude of light entering the eye, and, presumably, the intensity of the resulting signal cascade.

My best guess is that, at least in the case of 5-HT psychedelics, the firing patterns that result from the psychedelic's presence are reinforced through continued use (or in rare cases, a single use) via Hebbian conditioning (neurons that "fire together wire together") or more quickly adapting, less understood, processes (receptor masking/unmasking).

This neurostructural misadaptation then persists even in the absence of drugs, and is, naturally, more intense in the presence of greater visual or neurochemical stimulation. HPPD usually goes away after a period of non-use because the new neural arborage atrophies if it is not reinforced. It doesn't get reinforced because the normal neural pathways that underlie visual perception are sufficient to navigate the environment, and the new growth in response to psychedelic stimulation only developed in the first place because of non-environmental stimuli which are no longer present. Stimulants cause greater electrical activity in the brain, thereby increasing the likelihood of random activation of the new connections. Think of a high voltage Jacob's Ladder arcing further with greater voltage; in a similar fashion perhaps general stimulation in the brain also causes greater general activation of the majority of neural circuits, including the new one's that grew in response to psychedelic use.

I'm not advocating any philosophical view here, just giving the simplest explanation using what is known and verifiable and accounts for the observations of what increases and decreases HPPD.

 

[interleukin]

I'm don't think the visual system at the level we are talking about in adult humans would be capable of drug induced plasticity (rewiring). In fact, I'm pretty sure I've read papers where they say that there is a critical period very early in development for plasticity in the visual cortex that is induced by inhibitory neurons.
With my undergraduate level knowledge of neuroscience if I had to guess what was going on I would say downregulation of 5-HT receptors on GABAergic neurons.

 

[psood0nym]

^I've seen studies where sighted individuals who were blindfolded for five days straight and were taught to read braille during this period showed substantial recruitment of the visual cortex while reading braille blindfolded. A group that took their blindfolds off for just a half hour per day did not learn braille at all (and fMRIs showed no recruitment of the visual cortex). This indicates that in the absence of any optical signals the visual cortex is able to adapt to process somatosensory information coming from the finger tips and functionally integrate it into perception in just five days. Presumably this requires robust neuroplastic adaptation, whatever the mechanism. I know what you're talking about regarding critical periods, though (those poor kittens!).

My motive was just to introduce an explanation using known terms and mechanisms. I do see what you're saying about receptor downregulation, and it seems feasible. If inhibitory neurons were kept from firing due to receptor down regulation the result would presumably be greater stimulation, perhaps so much as to result in aberrant firing patterns and hallucinations.

 

[ganja god]

^I'm not the kind of person who pretends to know what I'm talking about when I don't, so I admit all your nuero chemistry talk was lost on me. Though if it is true, which I believe it is, as any nuero chemical explanation I believe is, it does not discount metaphysical beliefs. We are still left wondering why? and what else beyond what we can observe empirically? some more support for my idea; I just tried the om meditation for my first time, which is basically aimed at opening the third eye. When I stopped my hppd was so strong to the point of flat out psychedelic open eyed visuals for a good minute. Of course its not scientific proof, merely more subjective testament, but for whatever its worth..

And I know I said I was resigning from the debate, but I'm enjoying it too much.

 

[the outsider]

Wow, what a thread. I’ll chime in:

Seems to me far too many people (IamMe90, allium etc) are conflating scientific paradigms with spiritual paradigms. Scientific methods apply to the external, objective world, are based on cold mathematical reason and can prove things to an absolute degree of certainty. Spiritual systems apply to the internal, subjective world cannot be ‘proven’. I’d be hesitant to apply the word ‘true’ to any internal concepts I might have, but does that make them less real or valid as far as I’m concerned? Concepts such as chakras and the third eye don’t play a role in my spiritual beliefs, but other concepts such as universal morality & the existence of an inextinguishable spark of Love residing in each conscious being do - of course these cannot be objectively proven by scientific methods, only understood on an intuitive basis having been experienced and divined from rational principles. For all I know, ideas of chakra and the third eye are simply different perspectives on the same thing, but if such frameworks help people come to a better, more holistic understanding of reality who am I to quibble?

I fully agree with ganja god, Rainbow Warrior, Survived Abortion and others claiming a spiritual component to the permanent or semi-permanent visual changes that result from psychedelic use, and the idea of it being labelled a disorder is ridiculous. What the medical community mistakenly call HPPD is simply one of the many ways psychedelics give us the insight and the tools to perceive beauty in the world (beauty in my mind being inseparable from Love which is the highest concept). No-one’s vision was an absolute representation of reality before psychedelics anyway so frankly I don’t see what the big deal is , it’s only a good thing imo.

As for some of the bullshit:

dude if you think an illness recieved from doing drugs is some kind of opening of a minds eye then that is wack....

Illness? Come on man....

You aren't fucking opening your "third eye" when you trip. And this is poor justification for continuing psychedelic use despite semi-permanent consequence.

Doesn't matter if you believe in a literal third eye or not (it's not a concept I've ever adhered to) - clearly when you trip, you are raising your awareness of higher things and that's what's meant by third eye. There are many other semi-permanent consequences from psychedelic use as well, what's the big deal over some minor visual distortions?

If you're so certain in the existence of these things, perhaps you could somehow demonstrate their existence through reliable evidence? If you tell me that this isn't possible, then you can't really blame me or anyone else for not putting too much stock into these concepts

As I explained above they're spiritual concepts, not scientific and as such can't be 'proven', but if a belief in a concept affords people a freer and happier existence does it not have merit?

I'm only subjecting the objects of your beliefs to the same standards that science subjects its own tenets to. It's not as if science only uses rigorous standards of proof on religious concepts and permits anything in its own realm... and if things like "chakras" and "astral projection" really exist as a real phenomenon, they should be qualifiable and demonstrable through those same standards that apply to the rigorous analysis of the physical world that constitute science.

No, because once again we're dealing with the spiritual/internal world not the empirical external one. That's the fundamental difference people seem to be missing

Also, HPPD is something that needs to be properly diagnosed by someone who knows what he's doing, otherwise it's just speculation that you happen to have it.

Come on dude...isn't it patently obvious that the average health professional knows jack about this kinda stuff? Psychiatry as it currently stands seems to be about labelling everyone who doesn't fall into an increasingly narrow midsection of a normal distribution curve as 'disordered', considers amphetamine a therapeutic medicine and regards depression as an unnatural state of mind in need of medication. And why would you allow anyone other than yourself to make absolute statements about your consciousness ('you have HPPD') - it's yours to interpret & do with as you will and a 'disorder' label is not gonna help you.

I have lingering visuals of many sorts and it doesn't bother me, so I don't have HPPD. But I do think that anxiety would go terribly with lingering visuals for some people as I guarantee that they are a real occurrence

Psychiatry becomes even more of a pseudoscience in my book when two people with identical symptoms will receive a different diagnosis based on their reaction to their symptoms. That just seems silly, really

umm delusional much? Hppd is nothing to be proud of or in any way try to be happy or positive about. Ignoring it is the best solution and method, but don't encourage it because you haven't opened shit up pal. To me it sounds like you are trying to protect your beloved psych drugs. It's kind of the same with people finding a few studies saying mdma is probably not neurotoxic and then they base everything on that. When in fact there are hundreds of other research papers saying it is definitely neurotoxic, they are just choosing to believe what they want.
I was the same, and i misused it a little too much but NOTHING compared to some of these other people and i had to pay the longgg and dire consequences.

Oh no, God forbid people should try to be happy and positive about their situations 8) How do you gain from being negative about it? It's nothing like claiming MDMA is not neurotoxic, because that is or isn't an empirical fact. obviously I would defer to the experts in that regard, I don't delude myself. What exactly where these long and dire consequences anyway?

'hallucinogen perception cleansing reorder' ftw

 

[interleukin]

I'm curious to understand the link between psychedelic users and pseudo-scientific/whimsical rationalization of events.
Regarding the spiritual/internal world - do you think robots can ever achieve the same level of intelligence as humans and animals? Would they have an "inextinguishable spark of love" too? What about lower level animals? Single celled organisms? Human beings start off from a single cell - at what point in development does this spark of love enter the system? I understand that you are trying to differentiate hard science from an abstract concept. The problem is that these concepts are completely unnecessary to explain how the human system works even at a highly abstracted level. If you were to use such concepts when theorizing ideas like where the laws of physics are computed or the nature of intelligence in terms of changing state they would make more sense.
Regarding the psychedelic experience itself - what makes you think that they are raising your awareness of higher things? It is important to note that HPPD resulting from psychedelic use is negative because it does not improve an individual’s performance at any useful task. Just saying that it is a good thing to try and be happy along with the awareness of higher things comment makes it seem like a justification for continued use after obvious long term side effects have shown up. What would you think if someone that abused MDMA and ended up with fried memory and severe depresssion said that he thinks it is making him more in touch with his true spiritual nature?

psood0nym: I did some more reading and it does seem like some neuroplasticity is possible and common in the adult visual cortex. A simple google scholar search turns up hundreds of results most them, recent. Not sure if I buy that 5-HT2a agonism can lead to such changes or if it can explain the symptoms of HPPD though. I also found http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=462599. There is some good discussion on the loss of inhibition theory there.

 

[Solipsis]

@op: I think this explanation of HPPD is unfounded and nonsense, sorry. Just because it reminds you of descriptions is not a valid argument, it can easily be coincedence - selective perception... you are not noticing all the things that don't remind you of it but the thing that does makes you think that it cannot be a coincedence, a logical fallacy if you ask me.

What cannot simply be dismissed in my opinion is that the use of psychedelics can make you aware of very strong feelings of energy in your body.

The idea of chakra's or how many there are or what they are called is simply a metaphysical frame, one type of explanation with a set of terms. It isn't necessarily true or false, it doesn't matter how "real" it is per se... what it tries to capture is the fact that countless people FEEL this when they trip or meditate or do other practices that make you focus on your physical energy that is always there but you are only now noticing it like that.

I don't think that it is unscientific, it is not necessary to imply anything supernatural by it... you can think of it as a system that is very complex and that incorporates endocrine, hormonal and nerve systems. All of it together is responsible for phenomena like butterflies in your stomache and a lot of other stuff. There are scientific terms for them and explanations that are their own metaphysical frame but with different metaphysical frameworks it is not interesting what is true and tested scientifically, what is more interesting is what is useful and what unites the experiences of people under a much agreed upon denominator.

The same IMO goes for kundalini. I am not interested in how it is exactly attached to science. It is enough that systems like the electric net of our nervous system are proven as a basis for the experience of something like kundalini.

Similar to that I do not necessarily believe that I do or do not have a third eye, what I do know though is that I have on occasion felt something that seems to me like pure proprioception. How many times have you heard of people saying that with strong trips it didn't matter whether their eyes were closed or not? I think what that means is the visual image you hold in your mind of your surroundings combined with the image in your head of how your body is oriented in space (proprioception) are combined to visualize the relation of you to your surroundings and if you close your eyes this does not go away. In a figurative sense someone might call this an extra / third eye but it's just a matter of what you call it. The way I am describing it is far less spiritually tinted and might not clash with peoples aversion to spiritual terminology. All I am saying is that the terms overlap more than people want to agree upon, it's not necessary to accept one thing as true and as a consequence reject another. Again, you can use both theories in different ways.

 

[allium]

^^ A bit off-topic, I recently read that some unicellular organisms use certain chemicals for inter-cell communication. It is very interesting, that these chemicals include serotonin too. And now I am wondering if communication among bacteria is altered in my 2C-E solution.

Come on dude...isn't it patently obvious that the average health professional knows jack about this kinda stuff? Psychiatry as it currently stands seems to be about labelling everyone who doesn't fall into an increasingly narrow midsection of a normal distribution curve as 'disordered', considers amphetamine a therapeutic medicine and regards depression as an unnatural state of mind in need of medication.

Maybe these professionals don't know much on their topic (yet), and psychiatry seems to be the least-developed branch of medicine. But anyway these people know much more than you. It is obvious that you don't understand what depression is. Imagine that your mental activity suppressed, your memory becomes worse, your ability to solve problems becomes worse, you experience anhedonia and you don't feel good. Very healthy state indeed.

If HPPD don't bother you, then it is not HPPD. My HPPD-like state even entertains me, but there are people who really suffer from this condition. I could describe its symptomps, but my descriptions aren't very impressive.

Invent another word for all these abnormalities, if you don't like the words "illness" and "disorder".

Seems to me far too many people (IamMe90, allium etc) are conflating scientific paradigms with spiritual paradigms. Scientific methods apply to the external, objective world, are based on cold mathematical reason and can prove things to an absolute degree of certainty. Spiritual systems apply to the internal, subjective world cannot be ‘proven’

Well, not every theory is scientific, a theory must be falsifiable to be scientific. Why not argue about non-existence of chakras? Or this concept can be nor proven neither disproven?

 

[Solipsis]

Yes, HPPD is a disorder and the definition of a disorder is that there must be negative sides for either you or the people around you. A disorder implies dysfunction in some way.

Other than that HPPD-like symptoms have been described by people who do not consider them negative. By definition it is not a disorder but it can be hallucinogen persisting perception.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes, HPPD is a disorder and the definition of a disorder is that there must be negative sides for either you or the people around you. A disorder implies dysfunction in some way.

Other than that HPPD-like symptoms have been described by people who do not consider them negative. By definition it is then not a disorder but it can be hallucinogen persisting perception.

 

[the outsider]

interleukin, allium:

I'd be repeating myself if I answered all your questions - obviously I have no idea how this applies to robots or bacteria, but in brief:

Regarding the psychedelic experience itself - what makes you think that they are raising your awareness of higher things?

The fact that I became a much healthier, happier and well-balanced person after I started tripping and exploring these concepts.

It is important to note that HPPD resulting from psychedelic use is negative because it does not improve an individual’s performance at any useful task.

That's one of the most depressing things I've read in ages.

It is obvious that you don't understand what depression is. Imagine that your mental activity suppressed, your memory becomes worse, your ability to solve problems becomes worse, you experience anhedonia and you don't feel good. Very healthy state indeed.

I've been depressed plenty of times, I know exactly what it is - I never said it was healthy, I said it was natural.

If HPPD don't bother you, then it is not HPPD. My HPPD-like state even entertains me, but there are people who really suffer from this condition. I could describe its symptomps, but my descriptions aren't very impressive.

Why does it become a different thing based on your reaction to it?

 

[allium]

Finally I found one of the quotes that impressed me.
I hope this person is alright now, also maybe not everything he described is HPPD.

luckytaak, clearly you have never experienced any of this stuff. I have hppd from mdma and there's no chance it aint there. It's ruined my life for the past 9 months and it is jsut as strong. I have static, floaters, mild afterimages, blue field phenomenon (spermy things) and i am constantly dizzy, as if im in a washing machine. Its from drugs. All i have thought abotu every second for 9 months is this crushing nightmare. Never knew this could happen and then it jsut did. And i was very careful and havnt touched drugs since i got it. HPPD is very real. Its easy to deny something when youve never experienced it. It's really being very naive. If your brain can produce visuals in the first place on a drug, why is it so hard to believe that the receptors can stay in that state permanently?

i think the real divide comes from the severity of symptoms. If i just saw static, maybe it wouldnt be that bad. But it's far worse than that. I feel like i am always tripping minus any positive feelings. Ive never even done acid. As for toolazy2think's question, trust me when i say this....very moderate, responsible use. No more than about 20 times over 2 years, which surprisingly isnt that bad considering how much some people have done. And no ridiculous amounts, usually 2 pills. Also, all steps for harm reduction, including vitamin C, htp, tyrosine, etc. Raving was my life, along with rolling, with a very great respect for it, not abusive. I never could have imagined this would happen to me. I still can't beleive it. Acceptance that this is possible is so very hard, takes a lot of maturity, but it might seriously save your life. It's hard to look into the longterm.

I kow many people's HPPD doesn't really bother them, and therein lies a somewhat controversial implication that it is therefore NOT HPPD. Mine is mixed with feeling fucked 24/7, just completely gone, in addition to a chronic, debilitating, absolutely excruciation muscle tension pattern. Head feels like it's in a vice. This far far far outweighs any rapture ive gotten from e. And trust me...it was the greatest thing that had ever happened to me.

 

[allium]

Why does it become a different thing based on your reaction to it?

What is the problem with it?
Sex becomes a different thing based on reaction to it Many people have sex and they are alright, but some get raped(for example) and they don't feel okay.
Maybe it is not the best analogy, but this is the first thing that came in my mind.

I've been depressed plenty of times, I know exactly what it is - I never said it was healthy, I said it was natural.

Was you properly diagnosed, or did you think that you had a depression?
Pneumonia, bronchitis, [write the name of your favourite disease here] are very natural things too, why is depression(and other mental diseases) so special for you?

The fact that I became a much healthier, happier and well-balanced person after I started tripping and exploring these concepts.

I became helathier, happier and more balanced person after I started tripping and WITHOUT exploring these concepts.

 

[hobhead]

floaters are the result of Vitreous Detachment also called V. .separation .
it occurs in most as we age and is not treatable .

one simply learns to live with the annoyingly familiar specks and blobs that are seen coasting around our vision.

no mystical, superstitious crap just physiology

 

[Psyke]

astral projection doesn't exist.

Remote viewing was used by the CIA from like 1960-1990. They funded, for 30 years, intelligence (read: spy) programs based on remote viewing, which is astral projection. They just told people a guys name or something and asked them to find where in the world he was. There is a really astonishingly high success rate, but it is still way less than 50%. But for these things to be chance the odds to be beaten are well over trillions to one. So PSI does exist. Astral projection can get you information from distant places in the physical world just by experiencing them in your mind. This happens in NDE experiences on the operating table a lot where patients will describe what their family members were doing (usually from above) when they were under. They will read the serial numbers off of equipment in a room they've never been to and report them back correctly when returning (only a few times this has happened). The closest astral dimension is actually a slightly different vibration, this is why you vibrate upon entering astral projection experiences or smoking DMT

EDIT: also, take a rip of 20x salvia whilst tripping on mushrooms and then tell me astral projection doesn't exist

 

[ganja god]

^^ A bit off-topic, I recently read that some unicellular organisms use certain chemicals for inter-cell communication. It is very interesting, that these chemicals include serotonin too. And now I am wondering if communication among bacteria is altered in my 2C-E solution.


Maybe these professionals don't know much on their topic (yet), and psychiatry seems to be the least-developed branch of medicine. But anyway these people know much more than you. It is obvious that you don't understand what depression is. Imagine that your mental activity suppressed, your memory becomes worse, your ability to solve problems becomes worse, you experience anhedonia and you don't feel good. Very healthy state indeed.

If HPPD don't bother you, then it is not HPPD. My HPPD-like state even entertains me, but there are people who really suffer from this condition. I could describe its symptomps, but my descriptions aren't very impressive.

Invent another word for all these abnormalities, if you don't like the words "illness" and "disorder".


Well, not every theory is scientific, a theory must be falsifiable to be scientific. Why not argue about non-existence of chakras? Or this concept can be nor proven neither disproven?

Do they teach you history in Russia? Have you never heard of Rasputin? Consider Rasputin's death for example. Theres your "something cool"
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-death-of-grigory-rasputin
Something like that can only be accomplished through rigorous practice in self hypnotism, meditation, and probably a whole slew of other rigorous mind strengthening techniques. Science tells us to doubt the power of our own minds, inhibiting our very evolution. And as to how people react to hppd, if getting hppd is the same thing to (in my terms) opening the third eye, though it may ultimately be making you aware, some people just aren't ready for that awareness, so their ego rebells, causing anxiety and tension. Other people feel fine because they are ready.
This contains a better description of the experience. http://www.energy-cultivation.com/a...96095-experiences-after-the-third-eye-opening

 

[IamMe90]

Science tells us to doubt the power of our own minds, inhibiting our very evolution.

Hm, never heard of that definition of science before, thanks though, I'll put more stock into a random forumgoer's conception of science whose beliefs happen to be directly at odds with science.

And as to how people react to hppd, if getting hppd is the same thing to (in my terms) opening the third eye, though it may ultimately be making you aware, some people just aren't ready for that awareness, so their ego rebells, causing anxiety and tension. Other people feel fine because they are ready.
This contains a better description of the experience. http://www.energy-cultivation.com/a...96095-experiences-after-the-third-eye-opening

This is a "convenient" alternative explanation to HPPD but unfortunately isn't substantiated by much evidence. Of course, neither is the current scientific theory behind it, which is why it's a budding subject, until then, I'm not not going to put too much stock into either. However, one shows promise to be a lot less arbitrary than the other

 

[ganja god]

^I wasn't offering a definition of science. I was commenting on the general attitudes of the scientific community towards the things that I think hold our species' potential and evolution.

 

[IamMe90]

I know what you were doing, and I was being facetious.

However, science does NOT tell us to "doubt the power of our own minds" or to "limit our evolution." Such terms tell me that you don't really understand science anyway. That, or you're a crazy hippie who can't deal with someone not accepting unsubstantiated druggie theories as scientific phenomenon.