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  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

more BS when it comes to reliable scientific studies

Foreigner said:
Here is the full study:

Here is the summary:
evidence.nihr.ac.uk

The most effective antidepressants for adults revealed in major review

Find out what the most effective antidepressants are for adults, from this review of more than 500 anti-depressant trials.
evidence.nihr.ac.uk evidence.nihr.ac.uk

I find it interesting that 82% (9% high, 73% moderate) of trials that they analyzed fell into the moderate to high risk for bias. That's a lot! It means that these drugs were possibly not trialed correctly, or the conclusions about the trials were biased. Disturbing!
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strange i thought tianeptine is going to be in there, probably top 3. they completely ignored it though for some reason...
 
If you're interested in antidepressants you might like this one as well, it's a pretty comprehensive review on the efficacy of antipsychotics.
I thought it was pretty well done and it also has some nice graphs so it's easy to visualize all the info.


Sucks that most AP seem to be barely more efficient than placebo, yet they carry heavy side effects with long term use.

The mid 20th century really brought us a lot of amazing drugs/pharmaceuticals!
Psychiatry in particular had a huge breakthrough and this was all somehow related to the synthesis of LSD and the psychedelic revolution.
Seems like we could use another breakthrough, but I feel like it only gets harder and harder as we move on and try to solve super complex problems.
 
do not forget the most potent and newly developed antidepressant on the market, ketamine! now, only if we could finally get a damn generic version thats covered by the insurances!!! who wants to pay up to 12,000 in treatment costs?? AND even tho its the newest and most advanced antidepressant on the market, it still has side effects and some can be quiet severe for some people SO imagine spending 12,000 and all your time only to get shitty experience lol
 
Ketamine clinics are insane. Ketamine is not owned by any one company, so there is no reason for it to be so expensive other than it's a fad, not mainstream yet, and not covered by insurance because of this. The price tag clinics charge is ludicrous and criminal.
 
Xorkoth said:
Ketamine clinics are insane. Ketamine is not owned by any one company, so there is no reason for it to be so expensive other than it's a fad, not mainstream yet, and not covered by insurance because of this. The price tag clinics charge is ludicrous and criminal.
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im thinking of buying cheap ketamine for dogs or horses or whatever that is sold on the black market. is there a risk in those? are they exactly the same as one prescribed for depression? and since i cannot IV it, i wonder, is it available oral??
 
allone said:
im thinking of buying cheap ketamine for dogs or horses or whatever that is sold on the black market. is there a risk in those? are they exactly the same as one prescribed for depression? and since i cannot IV it, i wonder, is it available oral??
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Black market ketamine should work fine. If in doubt one could order a battery of test kits, or even send a sample of a medium to large batch to be tested with ms. Oral is pretty poor but will work if infrequent (higher risk of bladder damage with chronic use due to higher doses being needed). Nasal or rectal dosing are more potent than oral and avoid injections.
 
Atelier3 said:
I’m all for science and in an abstract way think that the scientific method is hands down the greatest intellectual achievement ever. However, it is worth noting that there is mounting evidence that a good deal of what calls itself ‘science’ is very socially constructed - beginning with the decisions about what even to research or what might be verboten to research. Add in the human capacity for groupthink. Top up with policy driven competitive research funding. Then there’s the whole ‘negative results never published’ behaviour that verges on the scandalous.

So it’s probably useful (and smart) to distinguish between science as an ideal and science as a practice beset with all the same kind of problems as everything else that people touch.

When people ever say something is true “because of the science” then it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
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I disagree with the whole science is a farce sentiment of the whole thread, but agree with this quoted post. The Human Genome Project has been outed as having historical and racial biases towards which genes to study. Only about 2,000 out of a possible 20,000 are studied, over and over, and those 2,000 are mainly linked to white Europeans. Basing medical data or disease therapy based off these studies is seriously flawed if you’re treating a person of African, asian, etc. descent. Even while looking at vaccines for Covid biomedical researchers neglected to look at huge numbers of genes for the same reasons.
 
allone said:
Science has taken over the Religious sector , but just like that, its all about MAGIC and make BELIEVE!! Some how I have a trouble discerning Science from Religion.
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Are you saying that the use of the wrong method to measure blood-brain barrier permeability is a religious dogma?

I try to convince people to trust scientists. But the breathless and overconfident gibberish in the "popular science" newspapers comes around every night to salt the fields.

It's not something we as scientists actually have much control over
 
Skorpio said:
Black market ketamine should work fine. If in doubt one could order a battery of test kits, or even send a sample of a medium to large batch to be tested with ms. Oral is pretty poor but will work if infrequent (higher risk of bladder damage with chronic use due to higher doses being needed). Nasal or rectal dosing are more potent than oral and avoid injections.
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how would rectal work? i believe they sell syringes for fluids... i have to check this out. but if it was powder, its easy to just shove them in there via capsules.

whats the status of bladder damage and ketamine use? i read some speculations it might cause some in certain people with high doses long term use but it was never proven dangerous enough to discontinue its medical use so far. i wonder in a medical setting where they inject you with this stuff, isnt it very likely such bladder damage to most likely occur?? kind of scary to think about this...

and yes im going off topic, but its my thread so i believe i have the freedom to do so as i wish!
 
Basically bladder damage is a factor of lifetime dose (which nasal or oral will be higher due to metabolism) times vulnerability which shifts the measure of when problems happen. Happens most with high dose chronic use.

Rectal dosing involves dissolving your dose in like 6 ml and squirting it up your keister. It ends up avoiding some first pass metabolism so more of the dose gets to your brain unchanged. Shoving dry up your b is not a great method because you need water to drive absorbtion, and the amount that dissolves in your butt mucus will cause irritation due to the local high concentration.
 
unfortunately rectal ketamine is nowhere near as effective as nasal ketamine, in fact it is closer to oral in terms of dosage (hundreds of mg)
 
OK! I continue to research and try many things around me daily, and I go to wikipedia most the time, and it has so many mixed science reviews, it confuses me even worst than if I even knew anything about the element in the first place!
SO! IS THERE ANY VALID, MAXIMUM AT LEAST 50%, RELIABLE SCIENCE RESEARCH OUT THERE?? AND HOW DOES ONE GET SUCH INFORMATION IF APPLICABLE!!

I changed my view about how I viewed and I expressed myself earlier in the thread, and I apologize for that. Give me a break now, and help me find a sustainable, reliable, anything good for me everyday use item thats SCIENCE APPROVED without conflict of interest, please. I would really appreciate that! THANKS!
 
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allone said:
OK! I continue to research and try many things around me daily, and I go to wikipedia most the time, and it has so many mixed science reviews, it confuses me even worst than if I even knew anything about the element in the first place!
SO! IS THERE ANY VALID, MAXIMUM AT LEAST 50%, RELIABLE SCIENCE RESEARCH OUT THERE?? AND HOW DOES ONE GET SUCH INFORMATION IF APPLICABLE!!

I changed my view about how I viewed and I expressed myself earlier in the thread, and I apologize for that. Give me a break now, and help me find a sustainable, reliable, anything good for me everyday use item thats SCIENCE APPROVED without conflict of interest, please. I would really appreciate that! THANKS!
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You are always going to get frustrated with science if you think any individual study in most scientific fields gives the definitive answer to anything in a true/false way. Most studies examine a highly specific hypothesis under specific controlled conditions and even then the scientists doing the study admit that their results are provisional and fallible. You are holding science to a truth standard that it does not even apply to itself. So that’s kind of unfair. I think you are also having difficulties separating the science (in the sense of an experiment or process) and the further commercial or other use (or suppressing) of the results of that science.

It is only possible to get substantive use out of scientific papers if you are capable of synthetic thinking and understand that knowledge is always incremental and fallible.


allone said:
im going to add some pictures from this magazine I just recently got from my doctors office. It has various SCIENCE crap and ADVERTISEMENT.
but anyway, ill just post the part about Common Benign Chronic Vulvar Disorders.

Whats the point you may ask. I just want to show this magazine advertising, then have SCIENCE completely disintegrate the most beautiful part of the human autonomy the vagina! in such disgusting images. you should see them!

It JUST sums up science as HELL against ART and HEAVEN
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If you are thinking of posting pictures of vaginas I’m pretty sure we don’t need that to continue the discussion.
 
sekio said:
unfortunately rectal ketamine is nowhere near as effective as nasal ketamine, in fact it is closer to oral in terms of dosage (hundreds of mg)
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I have anecdotal evidence that that is not true. 164 mg (I'm about 90kg) was enough to put me near a hole. This is within a standard deviation of my nasal dose.

Have you tried it that way? I do feel there is a prevailing opinion on the Internet that its futile, which led to me not trying it for quite some time.
 
Looks like I arrived to this party too late (my first post). No wish to rekindle this illuminating debate, but why on Earth pick on this particular article? IMHO it is an absolute exemplar of the scientific method. It alerts the community that a systematic bias, or worse yet, a flaw capable of injecting willy-nilly, false findings. This trojan horse appears to be attributable essentially to "antiquated" (ten years) technology. I see no conflicts of interest, but then again it is not my baliwick, but has implications in identifying mechanisms of neurodegenerative dementias--something that is of concern to the field of psychiatry (of which I am a member).

As to ketamine--they are likely to fuck this up, just as they will with psilosybin, though I have no idea how much that costs at this point. To their credit at least they enhance the "sessions" with music and comfy couches, and 30 years ago research into these areas as potential beneficial psychotropics was nearly unimaginable.

As to where strong science is to be found, try an up-to-date textbook in it's third or greater edition. May not be cutting edge, but a generally reliable guide to the body of knowledge. Stay way, far away from things like Psychology Today, and avoid ads like the plague. I believe you would e hard pressed to find any research purporting benefits for supplements. Alas, the same can be said for most of the cognitive enhancers I've seen studied--double blind testing is a merciless instrument wehn conducted properly.

This site rox!
 
Skorpio said:
Religion is less self correcting than science.
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It's actually science that causes religion to correct itself, though don't expect speedy results - Galileo was subject to house arrest, for the rest of his life, for suggesting that the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe and actually went around the sun. It only took a couple of centuries for the catholic church to admit he was correct and they were wrong.
A bit late for Galileo...
 
Skorpio said:
I have anecdotal evidence that that is not true. 164 mg (I'm about 90kg) was enough to put me near a hole. This is within a standard deviation of my nasal dose.

Have you tried it that way? I do feel there is a prevailing opinion on the Internet that its futile, which led to me not trying it for quite some time.
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Funny, isn't it: people are more than happy to stick sharpened metal tubes into their skin, or vile, painful stuff, up their noses, but suggest shoving it up your arse and they all get, "that's revolting"? It's not that complicated, bypasses 1st pass metabolism by the liver, an has the next quickest onset after the IM route (I used to say it also avoids the horrible taste, only to be horrified by finding out there are taste receptors in the arse - what sort of sick twisted deity would do such a thing! 🤣).
In fact, I would be all for a movement to allow public plugging (no secondary effects, like smoking and if public breast feeding is allowed... 🤣).
 
fastandbulbous said:
Funny, isn't it: people are more than happy to stick sharpened metal tubes into their skin, or vile, painful stuff, up their noses, but suggest shoving it up your arse and they all get, "that's revolting"? It's not that complicated, bypasses 1st pass metabolism by the liver, an has the next quickest onset after the IM route (I used to say it also avoids the horrible taste, only to be horrified by finding out there are taste receptors in the arse - what sort of sick twisted deity would do such a thing! 🤣).
In fact, I would be all for a movement to allow public plugging (no secondary effects, like smoking and if public breast feeding is allowed... 🤣).
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Are your talking about attitudes on Bluelight or amongst the general civilian population?

As far as I can tell, just about every quality poster in this joint is at worst neutral on plugging while the majority appreciate full well the sublime highs it offers across a very wide range of substances.

We have dozens of theads on it by enthusiasts and pity the fool coming into one of them with his ‘will it make SWIM gay’ schtick.
 
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