• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist

microwaves

LiquidMethod said:
well you guys can keep kissing each other's asses and eating poisonous food, while others with common sense will throw their microwaves away and purchase something that reduces electromagnetic chaos.

Thanks for throwing in name calling, the clarion call of those without evidence to back up their belief. Your sense may be common, but it is not correct.

If you would like to continue the debate with some evidence to backup your opinion, that would be great. Maybe do some reading and post some links so we could respond to some of your ideas.
 
lifeisforliving said:
. Your sense may be common, but it is not correct.

The same could be said in vice-versa mode imho. There are more things between heaven and earth than science can adequately account for.
 
^^and asbestos make the best filler for tampons!
wink.gif
 
Time will tell the truth on this one. As of now, it's theory vs. theory.
NOT 'nonsense' vs. 'scientific evidence'.

I think it's a pretty fair call to say you would be better off not using a microwave.
 
I'd say the pro-mircowave have a considerable heap of evidence on their side.

A) microwaves have been used to cook food in the West for 50 years, reheating flash frozen meats, vegetables, and fruits has been shown to be the healthiest way to consume them, other than fresh. Nutrient content after microwave cooking is higher than oven cooking, canning, and steaming.

B) microwave radiation is non ionizing (not cancer causing), and any leaked microwaves are in doses 20 times lower than the average cellular phone.

If microwaves were as bad as some people say they are, you'd see a pandemic of malnutrition (both micro and macro nutrients). The American diet is high in sodium and fat, and low in fiber, but other than that, you dont see too many people starving themselves because of TV dinners, nor do you see wrickets, scurvey, berri berri, or pellagra.

If the only thing you can supply is "energetic structure", and then can't even describe how other heating methods preserve it, and why, then I think you've got yourself a religious belief, not a scientific theory. So ya, nonsense.
 
I remember reading something like microwaves denature proteins and weaken your immune system. I found this on google:

"Doctor Hans Hertel was the first scientist in the early 1990’s to devise and carry out a quality study on the effects of microwaved foods on the blood and health of human beings. This small but well-controlled study conducted in Switzerland produced some shocking results. The conclusion was clear: microwave cooking changed the foods structure so that changes took place in the participants' blood; these were not healthy changes but were changes that could potentially cause disease."
http://www.alun.dk/eng/artikler.asp?ID=409

I use the microwave 1% of the time I cook.. though I'm sure the health hazard is pretty minimal. Food tastes better when it ain't fuckin zapped.
 
^ I was able to find a lot of articles restating the microwave/immune system link but no abstract. feel free to chuck it out the window.
 
microwaves, I DUN TRUST 'EM!!

I rarely use microwaves, only time i ever use mine is if i want some bread QUICKLY but the only bread i have is in the freezer, so i just chuck a few slices in for half a minute and there defrosted :D
 
Ximot said:
why? ran out of proper arguments?

What was your argument? I can't figure it out.

Ximot said:
The same could be said in vice-versa mode imho. There are more things between heaven and earth than science can adequately account for.


atlas said:
so therefor... believe whatever the fuck you want

Oh yes, Ximot, your quote had so much more substantial information for an intellectual argument than atlas's. What atlas did do, was restate your "belief system" with more brevity and generality. ;)

Ximot - How about you put your time/energy into finding the actual data behind the Hans Hertel study. THAT would be of benefit.
 
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@lifl:


I was taking issue with atlas using the f-word. Using the f-word to give authority to one's opinion indicates strong emotional attachment to that opinion. And that opinion is therefore most likely not based on true understanding or any certainty. If it was, such angry, stubborn attachment would most likely not exist.

I understand that with your use of irony you are trying to lecture me. Yet you are not in fact validating anything atlas said.

I, too, am strongly attached to my opinion... but my opinion is that microwaves (and MSG, for that matter) are pretty bad for our health and well-being. And no, I have nothing to back this up except personal experience, like, how it makes me feel. The differences are subtle, but to me, they're real. Placebo? Fuck knows... ;-)

peace bro!
 
Right... did my homework and looked for some German language sources, since Hertel is Swiss. You can have a look at those links via Babelfish and you get reasonably accessible albeit clumsy English translations.

http://www.naturalscience.org/de/div/ZeitenSchrift - Mikrowellen.pdf

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cach...s+hertel+mikrowelle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=uk (same as above but HTML so you can enter it into Babelfish)

This link also struck me as intriguing: http://members.aol.com/borispeisker/mikrow.html

Some more...
http://www.naturalscience.org/de/journal/artikel/mikrowellen.html
http://www.schrotundkorn.de/1999/sk9910o1.htm
http://www.strahlung-gratis.de/Mikrowellengeraete.htm
http://www.info3.de/ycms/printartikel_787.shtml
http://www.mentalpsychologie-netz.d...e/mikrowellenkostgefaehrdetdiegesundheit.php4 (this link has a fairly big bibliography)


and here's a couple of English language ones:
http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine/articles/kathy/microwave.html
http://www.naturalscience.org/en/journal/articles/microwaves.html

Another link I thought was good: http://home.wxs.nl/~holtj019/D/Art_Mikrowelle.html (Babelfish it, interesting read! goes into the Hertel story a bit though there aren't any data either... in any case the article states that copies of the study are still available from The World Foundation for Natural Science, Box 632, CH-3000 Bern, Switzerland, Tel: 0041 33 438 1158 fax: 437 48 16)


Dunno if's what you're looking for... I haven't managed to dig out the wording of the actual study or anything. I also haven't read these links in any detail because I already believe what I believe and am scientifically not knowledgeable enough to call anyone's bluff. In essence, though, they all seem to state what the link that rollplayk shares above already states.

Objectively, what I find of concern is especially the reported changes in the blood cell count, indicating degenerative tendencies.

Subjectively, quite simply the fact that I do not like the energy of microwaved food. It tastes so dead and just not healthy.
 
from this link: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=10&gl=uk

Meal from the microwave loads the body
particularly strongly, because the harmful Mikrowel
lenenergie over the food on the blood
one transfers . With the conventional cook
procedure takes the energy content of the food
off. Microwave food is however energy
enrich as before. However watched out: Thus is
it not automatically healthier, because the life
donating vital energy in the food takes
simultaneously over up to ninety per cent off
(which
*snip*
Of harmony between
Yin and Yang no speech can be, because that
female (mental) portion of the energy is missing. Those
Energy runs only on the path of the you
tung. There are none positively and negatively charged,
waves moving in opposite directions, which could cross.
Therefore also no vermehrung develops.
Man can create alone also no child

I will read more completely later, but the main article you link to is purely pseudoscience. Give the hard data figures, and the methods used, or it is not a scientific endeavor.

Sorry, you are asking me (and others) to throw away our known understanding of the world for some guy's blather about Yin and Yang and "vital life force".

If he had the science - he would report it. Ergo.. I call bullshit on his study, as I do any study that waxes on about philosophy and pretends it to be physiology.

I am unmoved, or rather, just confirmed that the only "real" study on the "damaging" microwaved food is nothing but smoke. No fire.


Thank-you for the digging though Ximot.

(and might I suggest that in your travels, that when you find "studies" or "articles" without the source data referenced, that you give the whole article little weight as evidence of your belief.
 
LiquidMethod said:
Time will tell the truth on this one. As of now, it's theory vs. theory.
NOT 'nonsense' vs. 'scientific evidence'.

I think it's a pretty fair call to say you would be better off not using a microwave.

based on what? I'm probably in better health than you and I've used microwaves throughout my lifetime.
 
That's a big call considering that for you I am text on an electronic visual display.

Being fit doesn't equal being healthy. The healthiest people in my experience are the ones who live as natural a lifestyle as possible. This isn't an iron rule, but most man-made conveniences are detrimental to our health. (Processed food, electronic devices, ).

And if we're looking at the state of our population, I would definetely say were are not heading in the right direction. A microwave is just 1 more thing that is killing us.
 
Ximot said:
Think about intensity, duration, direction... I really believe this, and my experience has shown me that I am right. And of all ways of cooking, I suppose microwaved must be the worst: an incredibly restless, haywire energy that has no specific direction and wreaks havoc in the mind and body and spirit of the one who consumes it.
Jesus, is it mainly psychedelic users who come up with this sort of nonsense? Just freakin' wondering!

Fwiw I'm healthy, and microwave most of my food. Of course, someone can always find "something wrong with me" if they want... but physically I've been extremely healthy my whole life, and with amazingly little exercise.

I don't know why people make up absurd silliness like the above, but I'm thankful I adhere to no nutty-arse belief systems whatsoever (part of what's kept me healthy, actually... not to mention stress free and relaxed).
LiquidMethod said:
Being fit doesn't equal being healthy. The healthiest people in my experience are the ones who live as natural a lifestyle as possible. This isn't an iron rule, but most man-made conveniences are detrimental to our health. (Processed food, electronic devices, ).
WTF did you post the above with, a tree with built in LCD screen?

What is this, resurgence of the early 70s hippie movement? All of them talking to each other on their cell phones about getting back to nature? LOL!
lifeisforliving said:
I will read more completely later, but the main article you link to is purely pseudoscience. Give the hard data figures, and the methods used, or it is not a scientific endeavor.

Sorry, you are asking me (and others) to throw away our known understanding of the world for some guy's blather about Yin and Yang and "vital life force".

If he had the science - he would report it. Ergo.. I call bullshit on his study, as I do any study that waxes on about philosophy and pretends it to be physiology.

I am unmoved, or rather, just confirmed that the only "real" study on the "damaging" microwaved food is nothing but smoke. No fire.
Nice to see some actual sanity in this thread (not that I'd ever use the word 'ergo' ;-).
 
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MDPVagrant said:
stress free and relaxed

few if any of your posts @BL that I have read have ever given me the impression that you are indeed "stress free and relaxed" -But I concur that microwaves probably aren't to blame - though they just might be a contributing factor along with the stimulants.

Yeah, you got me sussed alright, hehe - I am predominantly a psychedelic user and I am a bit of a sucker for new age things and probably quite gullible (albeit in a different way from regular folks, whom I believe to be also very gullible). When I read the thing about hippies talking about getting back to nature on their cellphones I actually had to laugh - nicely put :-D That's microwaves too, btw... and I really do not enjoy using my mobile phone....
 
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