[MEGA] God

[Turbo Monk]

psychoblast, intriguing posts.

I did not even realize this before, but even when I was a firmly believing Lutheran, I still wondered if I would get into heaven or end up in Hell. I mean, we all sin, right?

Yes.

Exactly what sins would be forgiven?

All sins except one are forgivable.

What if I sinned and died an hour later, before asking Jesus for forgiveness?

Great question, "dying with a sin on me".

If we were judged on living perfect, sinless lives... none of us would make it to heaven. The belief that Christ was both God/man, lived a sinless life, rose from the dead, and turn to him for the absolution of your sin is what saves you (note: this doesn't mean you'll never sin again). Ephesians 2:8 states "It is by grace through faith which we're saved, not by our good works, so that no one can boast."

What if the Baptists were right and some tiny nuance of my version of protestantism was wrong?

If you believe Christ is both God/man, rose from the dead, and turn to him for absolution of sins... you have the ticket.

This causes debate amongst Christians by the question: did Jesus come here so I could keep sinning or did he come here so I could stop sinning?

This spawns variations of denominations and lifestyles. Yes, the grace of God actively pursues us through Christ which covers our sins if we choose to accept it. Unfortunately, this gets abused by the practice of, "I can go ahead and do whatever I want cuz Jesus will forgive me." vs. Jesus giving me the power to overcome my temptation to sin, striving to lead a more Godly life.

What if I was not quite respectful enough of my parents?
What if God really didn't want me doing chores on Sunday and was ready to send me to Hell for it?

What matters is whether we believe that Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments for us and forgives us when we break them.

 

[sexyanon]

Which sin is unforgivable?

And why must we believe that Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments in order to get into Heaven? Seems like a bit of propaganda and brainwashing to me.

God will only let the people who believe in him into heaven. Anyone else can die and go to hell.

 

[Christian Soldier]

^ hehe well Satan certainly believed in God. He's not going to heaven

 

[sexyanon]

So how do us hedonistic creatures get into Heaven? Not defy God, ask for forgiveness, and believe in JC?

Why didn't God give Satan a second chance. Sounds like a punk holding a grudge..

 

[Turbo Monk]

Which sin is unforgivable?

Please research that one.

And why must we believe that Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments in order to get into Heaven? Seems like a bit of propaganda and brainwashing to me.

It's not propaganda. I've never heard any church say, "you gotta believe Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments to get into heaven." However, if you study scripture to any depth, it's easy to see how Christ fulfilled them. My response to psychoblast's post pointed out that God's not gonna send anyone to hell for breaking the Sabbath or dishonoring their parents. Those are forgivable sins.

So how do us hedonistic creatures get into Heaven? Not defy God, ask for forgiveness, and believe in JC?

Believe that Jesus is both God/man, lived a sinless life, rose from the dead, then turn to him for forgiveness.

Why didn't God give Satan a second chance. Sounds like a punk holding a grudge..

Satan's pride and power trip complexes make him want to be God, not be forgiven by him.

 

[The LeGenD of DanieL]

^^ I wouldn't bet on that.



The matter and energy from the singularity became the universe. Both are a closed system, just the universe as we see it now is in an expanded form.

I don't see a point where something was 'created' - it was always there.

Although I can't prove it, I believe God, the singularity, willed the 'Big Bang', and moments later it happened.

To me, the above is just as plausable as the best science can come up with:
'the singularity became unstable at some point (for unknowable reasons) and exploded.'

^^never said that didn't happen, but as i stated, something must have made the big bang, you want to go into details how god did it,

he makes the singularity he puts unstable cells in it then BOOOOOOOOM there you go man simple

but you don't have to take my word for it

 

[The LeGenD of DanieL]

To the legend of daniel.
First of all, you bring up the whole wager argument that you may as well believe because you loose nothing to believe but could loose everything to not believe (hell). In response.

A) The main problem with this argument is that there are not only two possibilities. There are millions. Even within Christianity the JW's believe only they are saved same as protestants. Not to mention all the other religions that claim if you don't follow them you lost. So even if I do believe, what if i believe the wrong religion.

B) You can not 'make your self believe' you either do or don't. You can't decide that "hey I'll believe in all this stuff about Jesus and the bible and miracles because if I'm wrong I'm lost". If it doesn't seem plausible to you thats it.

Christian Soldier said it so well

Satan certainly believed in God. He's not going to heaven

it's not just believing in god to get to heaven i would quote some of these other post on the last page but i'm not going thru it all

but you got a good point n i never disagreed with this, not everyone that believes in God believes in the same one,

me personally i have thought of this theroy not 100% sure on it but listen to this

all Religions do have some simulariies in them, they could all believe in the same god, just call God by a different name

like every Lanuage has a different way how to say Hello or Yes or whatever word,

some religions protray there god in many different forms as well and contradict some of the other religions ways of thinking ofcourse

there is even a few religions that believe in many gods, for that i think they are just splitting up God's Powers into many thinking that one being can't do all the work as many would be able to,

that's one bit of theroy to think about

 

[Christian Soldier]

So how do us hedonistic creatures get into Heaven? Not defy God, ask for forgiveness, and believe in JC?

Why didn't God give Satan a second chance. Sounds like a punk holding a grudge..

You need to accept the Holy Spirit into your heart. Satan rejected Him for his own pride, alike to non-believers. My POV ofcourse

 

[psychoblast]

The concept of anything existing beyond the universe cannot be confirmed nor denied by evidence, as nothing can be observed outside the boundaries of the universe.

Here is an equally useless distracting illusion:

1) We are imperfect beings.
2) We exist within the universe
3) The universe is another word for God
4) Imperfect components exist within God.
5) Therefore God as a whole is imperfect.

So, you can't see any flaws in my proofs, so instead you call them "illusions." Um... illusions can be seen through.

As for your proof, above, that God is imperfect, it works if you believe humans are imperfect, it works. Except that perfection is a meaningless concept. It is entirely subjective based on who is applying the word, what they are applying it to, why they are applying it and when they are applying it. What one person perceives as perfect, another may not perceive as perfect. For me, the perfect chair would be a different shape and size than for a child. And even for me, the perfect chair would be different 10 years from now than whatever it would be today. If my feet hurt, a perfect chair would have to include a foot massager. If my feet feel fine, it would not. People should just stop fucking wasting time with a meaningless concept like perfection.

Now, I believe in a conscious universal oneness of which we are all fragments. You can call that "God." I sometimes do for simplicity, but I don't mind just calling it the conscious universe or something like that. Anyway, I would point out that I do not insist that the universal oneness is perfect. I would not assert any such thing because asserting such a thing is meaningless.

My proof that a perfect being would not create the universe is just one more logical nail in the coffin of religions that are all fluff and no substance, that are spectacles to frighten and enslave the weakminded. Like Christianity and Islam, for example. These people insist that God is perfect and it is blasphemy to suggest otherwise. Much like early Christians insisted the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Oh, your proof also works to show that only if everyone and everything is perfect, can God be perfect. Which is also true, if meaningless. The bottom line is that any religion that insists that God is perfect and humans are imperfect is PROVABLY illogical and should be discarded by any rational human. You must decide everything and everyone is perfect or that nothing (not even God) is perfect. Either way is fine and logically consistent.

------

All sins except one are forgivable.

Forgivable or forgiven? If a Christian does NOT have to ask for forgiveness to have a sin forgiven, then that Christian's sins are FORGIVEN not FORGIVABLE. Forgivable implies you have to do something after the sin to get the forgiveness.

Also, I believe the one except is suicide. And note that suicide is the one sin where you do not have any opportunity to ask for forgiveness after you sin, because you are dead. So the very fact that suicide is the one unforgiveable sin is even further proof that, under Christian doctrine, you MUST ask for forgiveness after you sin in order to receive forgiveness.

Isn't this the whole basis for the Catholic's confessionals? The protestants did away with confessionals, but not the need to confess. Rather, they took priests out of the middle-man position and created protestant religion in which the masses were told the ask God directly for forgiveness.

Anyway, it appears you have to do some contorted twisting of Christian dogma to come away with a version that does NOT require you to ask for forgiveness after you sin in order to have Jesus' sacrifice wash away that sin.

Then we get to the nice, but dumb, idea that God looks at the DEGREE of sin in deciding who gets into heaven. I mean, there are sinful souls and sin-free souls (because the soul's owner asked for forgiveness after the last sin). The former go to Hell, the latter go to Heaven. That's the black and white of Christianity.

It is only because Christian dogma is so retarded that Christians themselves usually water it down and hem and haw and compromise on their own dogma so that they can stand to stick with it (arguably changing the dogma is NOT sticking with it, but that's another issue). So, you get Christians say, "Oh, you have to believe and ask for forgiveness and you will be saved.... But if you don't ask for forgiveness for a sin, it will stay on your soul. So if you die after stealing a car, God will send you to hell unless you repent before dying. What? You want to know what if you stole a pencil from work but never asked for forgiveness? Oh...uh...well, that's such a minor sin, God surely would not send you to Hell for it."

Where does the Bible spell out this "God overlooks the little sins" doctrine? I've heard it said, but never seen anything in the Bible to support it.

Anyway, it seems like suicide is the most minor form of murder you can commit. Yet Hitler could have asked for forgiveness for his genocide of millions and been saved, while a depressed teen is supposedly condemned to eternal torture for offing himself one sad night. A common sense nail in the coffin of Christianity.

~psychoblast~

 

[Turbo Monk]

psychoblast,

Are you familiar with the new covenant that was formed with Jesus Christ? It replaced the old covenant of the Passover where the Israelites smeared the blood of a lamb to protect them from the passing over of the angel of death.

The differences between the old/new covenant: instead of a lamb, it was Jesus's blood that was shed. Instead of the lamb's blood being smeared on doors, the blood of Christ covers one's heart.

This was done in genius fashion. The people of Jesus's day didn't even know they were selecting the new passover lamb when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. They examined him for 3 days, found him to be without fault, then killed him at sunrise, not a bone in his body was broken. (the same procedure was used for Passover lambs, and no more animal sacrifices were used after Christ's death) If you wanna go deeper, the pattern of blood stains for the lamb's blood on the doors matches the blood stains on the cross:

X = blood stain

--------X------- top of door/crown of thorns

X--------------X sides of door/nail holes through wrists




--------X------- bottom of door/nail holes through feet


The Holy Spirit is at work in all of us, urging us to seek a relationship with Jesus Christ. When we accept that relationship, the blood of Christ covers our hearts.

Yeah, we're gonna sin and God knows it. Fortunately, He doesn't judge us based on our performance. He looks for whether or not we have the blood of Jesus Christ on our hearts which is a result of our submission to the Holy Spirit.

The eternal sin is closing one's self off to the Holy Spirit until death.

 

[psychoblast]

Are you familiar with the new covenant that was formed with Jesus Christ? It replaced the old covenant of the Passover where the Israelites smeared the blood of a lamb to protect them from the passing over of the angel of death.

The differences between the old/new covenant: instead of a lamb, it was Jesus's blood that was shed. Instead of the lamb's blood being smeared on doors, the blood of Christ covers one's heart.

Uh...it seems like their are some gaps in your "genius" solution. You provide the mechanism for how people are saved post-Jesus (Jesus' blood sacrifice cleanses their sins), and you provide the mechanism for how, before Jesus, the particular Jews who happened to be in Egypt the night the Angel of Death came around avoided death (though not necessarily Hell) on that particular night.

See how the later does not parallel the former? The blood smeared on doors did not apply to generations of Jews who lived and died before that night, and it did not apply to generations of Jews born after that night who died before Jesus came. Further, nothing in the Bible indicates that the blood-smears-on-doors that first Passover night was a sacrifice that cleansed away the sins of the Jews who partook in that ritual. And even if it did, what about their sins the following day, week, month, year? Was putting a smear of blood on their door enough to get all their sins forgiven for their whole life?

I also note you seem to have no problem with your God demanding blood sacrifice to atone for sins. Uh...that sounds rather gruesome, evil and barbaric to me.

On a last note, consider which is preferable: A God who reveals himself to you and displays his existence and his power with daily miracles, and demands you sacrifice animals to be saved, or a God who refuses to prove his existence and asks that people believe in him and his son to be saved. Given the choice, I would rather have the certainty of what power oversees the afterlife and what the conditions are of entry, even if it means having to jump through a few more hoops, rather than have the current state of affairs in which hundreds of competing religions give conflicting versions of what you must believe and how you must behave to be saved.

The bottom line is, in the Bible, Jesus (1) took away some hoops we must jump through to be saved, (2) added a new hoop we must jump through to be saved, and (3) then refused to provide any concrete proof of what the true hoops we must jump through really are, leaving future generations to live and die in uncertainty, doubt and fear. Sound like a good deal to you? Sounds like shit to me.

The New Testament ought to be called "The Curse of Jesus."

~psychoblast~

 

[Turbo Monk]

See how the later does not parallel the former?

See how the latter prophesizes the former?

The Passover has become a symbol of great proportion. Egypt has come to symbolize the state of sin that we each find ourselves in. Held prisoner in bondage to sin, we experience the angel of death passing through our lives to wreak a horrid vengeance upon us. Through the blood of Jesus, God passes over those who are a part of the new covenant relationship.

I also note you seem to have no problem with your God demanding blood sacrifice to atone for sins. Uh...that sounds rather gruesome, evil and barbaric to me.

Actually I have thought about that, thinking it's extreme and morbid, but that's what it finally took to convince Pharaoh to let the people go.

On a last note, consider which is preferable: A God who reveals himself to you and displays his existence and his power with daily miracles, and demands you sacrifice animals to be saved, or a God who refuses to prove his existence and asks that people believe in him and his son to be saved.

God does reveal himself to us and displays his existence by his power with miracles and asks that people believe he took the form of man in Jesus.

The bottom line is, in the Bible, Jesus (1) took away some hoops we must jump through to be saved,

Agreed, by living a sinless life.

(2) added a new hoop we must jump through to be saved,

I take it you're inferring our believing him to be both God/man and placing our faith in him.

and (3) then refused to provide any concrete proof of what the true hoops we must jump through really are,

Examine how the Pharisees beckoned Jesus to perform miracles, so they would believe. Concrete proof negates the need for faith.

leaving future generations to live and die in uncertainty, doubt and fear.

Faith is what replaces uncertainty, doubt, and fear.

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

PB, who said the unforgivable sin is suicide but you? Unless imissed it, you are the one applying your views to the christian faith! Dude, as smart as you are (seemingly) when you try debating the subject of christianity you look so stupid. You really are as ignorant as it gets to what the Bible says...Why not go and read it then come back and talk, untill then you really are a waste of time and energy.

Funny thing is, you try SO HARD to come off like you know what you are talking about, yet, for someone who does know what the Bible says you come off looking like a complete moron. Sorry, but it is true. Eiter study up, or discuss something you actually know something about.

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

The eternal sin is closing one's self off to the Holy Spirit until death.

Thank-you! I didnt even read this post before i just informed Psychoblast of his ignorance. Yeah, PB, it is suicide because YOU say so! 8)

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

Uh...it seems like their are some gaps in your "genius" solution. You provide the mechanism for how people are saved post-Jesus (Jesus' blood sacrifice cleanses their sins), and you provide the mechanism for how, before Jesus, the particular Jews who happened to be in Egypt the night the Angel of Death came around avoided death (though not necessarily Hell) on that particular night.

See how the later does not parallel the former? The blood smeared on doors did not apply to generations of Jews who lived and died before that night, and it did not apply to generations of Jews born after that night who died before Jesus came. Further, nothing in the Bible indicates that the blood-smears-on-doors that first Passover night was a sacrifice that cleansed away the sins of the Jews who partook in that ritual. And even if it did, what about their sins the following day, week, month, year? Was putting a smear of blood on their door enough to get all their sins forgiven for their whole life?

I also note you seem to have no problem with your God demanding blood sacrifice to atone for sins. Uh...that sounds rather gruesome, evil and barbaric to me.

On a last note, consider which is preferable: A God who reveals himself to you and displays his existence and his power with daily miracles, and demands you sacrifice animals to be saved, or a God who refuses to prove his existence and asks that people believe in him and his son to be saved. Given the choice, I would rather have the certainty of what power oversees the afterlife and what the conditions are of entry, even if it means having to jump through a few more hoops, rather than have the current state of affairs in which hundreds of competing religions give conflicting versions of what you must believe and how you must behave to be saved.

The bottom line is, in the Bible, Jesus (1) took away some hoops we must jump through to be saved, (2) added a new hoop we must jump through to be saved, and (3) then refused to provide any concrete proof of what the true hoops we must jump through really are, leaving future generations to live and die in uncertainty, doubt and fear. Sound like a good deal to you? Sounds like shit to me.

The New Testament ought to be called "The Curse of Jesus."

~psychoblast~

It has been told to YOU SPECIFICALLY, many times how salvation was "obtained" prior to Jesus. You are either retarded, or are skipping over everything we say and repeating yourself over and over again. Which is it?

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

See how the later does not parallel the former?

See how the latter prophesizes the former?

The Passover has become a symbol of great proportion. Egypt has come to symbolize the state of sin that we each find ourselves in. Held prisoner in bondage to sin, we experience the angel of death passing through our lives to wreak a horrid vengeance upon us. Through the blood of Jesus, God passes over those who are a part of the new covenant relationship.

I also note you seem to have no problem with your God demanding blood sacrifice to atone for sins. Uh...that sounds rather gruesome, evil and barbaric to me.

Actually I have thought about that, thinking it's extreme and morbid, but that's what it finally took to convince Pharaoh to let the people go.

On a last note, consider which is preferable: A God who reveals himself to you and displays his existence and his power with daily miracles, and demands you sacrifice animals to be saved, or a God who refuses to prove his existence and asks that people believe in him and his son to be saved.

God does reveal himself to us and displays his existence by his power with miracles and asks that people believe he took the form of man in Jesus.

The bottom line is, in the Bible, Jesus (1) took away some hoops we must jump through to be saved,

Agreed, by living a sinless life.

(2) added a new hoop we must jump through to be saved,

I take it you're inferring our believing him to be both God/man and placing our faith in him.

and (3) then refused to provide any concrete proof of what the true hoops we must jump through really are,

Examine how the Pharisees beckoned Jesus to perform miracles, so they would believe. Concrete proof negates the need for faith.

leaving future generations to live and die in uncertainty, doubt and fear.

Faith is what replaces uncertainty, doubt, and fear.

Great post!

 

[psychoblast]

Also, I believe the one except is suicide

As you will see, this was a very qualified assertion. I in no way claimed to be certain what sin this supposedly was. Way to jump on it, Sohi, and call me "so stupid" for suggesting this might be the case. You really can be "so stupid" when you try to debate me.

Anyway, I have heard suicide identified as the one unforgiveable sin because you cannot confess and be forgiven for it.

As for the assertion that the one unforgiveable sin is not letting the Holy Spirit into your heart (or whatever)...source please? Where is this "sin" even listed as a sin in the Bible?

What about the fact that Jesus did miracles in front of SOME people, and God has revealed himself to SOME people in physical form (ala Moses)? Aren't those people getting an unfair advantage compared to those of us who are supposed to believe some absurd tales in a 2000 year old collection of documents which have been edited to hell and back for political purposes of the Catholic Church?

If God reveals the truth of the Bible through stuff like a flower blooming or if the words inherently ring true on a deep spiritual level that cannot be denied...well, I've seen flowers blooming and I've read the Bible and heard sermons and I still don't believe. So obviously that stuff does NOT reveal the truth.

~psychoblast~

 

[psychoblast]

The bottom line is, in the Bible, Jesus (1) took away some hoops we must jump through to be saved,

Agreed, by living a sinless life.

So, you are saying that before Jesus' coming, everyone who lived and died could only get to Heaven and avoid eternal torture in Hell by living a perfectly sinless life? I'm curious because I've asked before on here how people got saved (or condemned) before Jesus' coming, and I don't recall any one -- not even the Christians on here -- gave a clear and concise answer such as this.

~psychoblast~

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

As you will see, this was a very qualified assertion. I in no way claimed to be certain what sin this supposedly was. Way to jump on it, Sohi, and call me "so stupid" for suggesting this might be the case. You really can be "so stupid" when you try to debate me.

You said: Also, I believe the one except is suicide. And note that suicide is the one sin where you do not have any opportunity to ask for forgiveness after you sin, because you are dead. So the very fact that suicide is the one unforgiveable sin is even further proof that, under Christian doctrine, you MUST ask for forgiveness after you sin in order to receive forgiveness.


Nice try *took out ad hom*.

Go ahead and just apologise for trying to twist things around to look right as usual.

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

So, you are saying that before Jesus' coming, everyone who lived and died could only get to Heaven and avoid eternal torture in Hell by living a perfectly sinless life? I'm curious because I've asked before on here how people got saved (or condemned) before Jesus' coming, and I don't recall any one -- not even the Christians on here -- gave a clear and concise answer such as this.

~psychoblast~

You are really pissing me off today man! You think because you are talking to someone new that i will forget how this topic HAS been explained to you already??? Many times. What is your problem?