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[MEGA] God

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Survival0200 said:
I've been thinking if god exists, why did he make this world and people like we are now? If god exists, tell me why:

... we have to eat and drink? We might as well work without eating and drinking. With solar power for example.

... why do we have to breath? We wouldn't have to do that necessarily.

... why there are deceases? This world would be so much better without deceases and a lot of people would be happier.

... why people are selfish and mean? Why? Tell me that? Why do we have to make the people around us feel sorrow from time to time?

... why everyone can't be happy?

... why does there have to be wars and violence?

... why can't we spend our lives just how we'd like to spend it?

... why god doesn't supply us with infinite supply of our favorite drug if we would want so?

... why can't we have everything we like?

... why can't everyone live as long as they want?

... why did god make us live in this planet?

Everything could be different.


All of your questions can be summed up with one other question: Why not?, or even, Why the why?

You are thinking of God as a perfect being capable of giving everybody everything they want, when really that makes no sence at all because then there would be no reason to create it all in the first place.

Personally I like to think of God-the-entity as a mind very much like our own, asking all the same questions that we are. The only real difference is that God doesnt have an outside world, which is why he needs us because a being can never understand itself completly from within its own system. Otherwise it would just "be".
 
No1 can really talk to God. But they can talk to Pope which is the closest thing to God.

Well, n/m. They can talk to "God" but they won't ever get an answer back. But if they talk to Pope or a priest or some other mofo then they will get an answer back.
 
Here's a thought.

Disclaimer: If God is God and truly exists outside of our universe, then He is obviously of a different nature than us and speculation about His thoughts and feelings is almost ludicrous since we have no way of knowing and even if we did, we have no way of knowing that He would think and feel anything like us mortal beings.

That said, suppose God exists and created us in His image and knows what He is doing and is omnipotent or all-powerful so that nothing happens that He is not aware of and could theoretically control or stop.

Why would He then put us in what seems to be such a deplorable circumstance? How can He know of our suffering without putting an end to it and still claim He loves us?

Maybe He needs to prove His love for us even more . . . kind of like when someone saves the life of another and they are forever grateful. Maybe God's thinking goes something like this, "They won't believe Me and the don't trust Me. I will cause them to think they are stuck in the most tortuous reality, thinking that they have no escape but death, and that even then they face an eternity of even greater suffering. In short, I will make them think it is impossible to escape. And then I will do the impossible and save them. And when they return to Me, they will understand that it is all over and was all done for their sake and that their new-found eternal bliss was dependent on the pruning they received through their short stint on earth."

Kind of like a parent who sends their child to their room to wallow in guilt and self loathing for a while before finally offering them mercy and forgiveness for the wrong they have done.

Just a thought.
Mike
 
Revrent_mike said:
Here's a thought.

Disclaimer: If God is God and truly exists outside of our universe, then He is obviously of a different nature than us and speculation about His thoughts and feelings is almost ludicrous since we have no way of knowing and even if we did, we have no way of knowing that He would think and feel anything like us mortal beings.

That said, suppose God exists and created us in His image and knows what He is doing and is omnipotent or all-powerful so that nothing happens that He is not aware of and could theoretically control or stop.

Why would He then put us in what seems to be such a deplorable circumstance? How can He know of our suffering without putting an end to it and still claim He loves us?

Maybe He needs to prove His love for us even more . . . kind of like when someone saves the life of another and they are forever grateful. Maybe God's thinking goes something like this, "They won't believe Me and the don't trust Me. I will cause them to think they are stuck in the most tortuous reality, thinking that they have no escape but death, and that even then they face an eternity of even greater suffering. In short, I will make them think it is impossible to escape. And then I will do the impossible and save them. And when they return to Me, they will understand that it is all over and was all done for their sake and that their new-found eternal bliss was dependent on the pruning they received through their short stint on earth."

Kind of like a parent who sends their child to their room to wallow in guilt and self loathing for a while before finally offering them mercy and forgiveness for the wrong they have done.

Just a thought.
Mike

I don't follow that reasoning at all. We're talking about an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, perfect diety who can create infinitely complex universes on a whim. He wouldn't need to construct any elaborate scenarios to convince us of anything, ever. He would just will it and it would be so. It would be so undeniably so that it would be accepted by every human being in the universe.

Richard Carier says it better. Tell me what you think about this quote from one of his papers Mike:

If God wants something from me, he would tell me. He wouldn't leave someone else to do this, as if an infinite being were short on time. And he would certainly not leave fallible, sinful humans to deliver an endless plethora of confused and contradictory messages. God would deliver the message himself, directly, to each and every one of us, and with such clarity as the most brilliant being in the universe could accomplish. We would all hear him out and shout "Eureka!" So obvious and well-demonstrated would his message be. It would be spoken to each of us in exactly those terms we would understand. And we would all agree on what that message was. Even if we rejected it, we would all at least admit to each other, "Yes, that's what this God fellow told me."[2]

Excuses don't fly. The Christian proposes that a supremely powerful being exists who wants us to set things right, and therefore doesn't want us to get things even more wrong. This is an intelligible hypothesis, which predicts there should be no more confusion about which religion or doctrine is true than there is about the fundamentals of medicine, engineering, physics, chemistry, or even meteorology. It should be indisputably clear what God wants us to do, and what he doesn't want us to do. Any disputes that might still arise about that would be as easily and decisively resolved as any dispute between two doctors, chemists, or engineers as to the right course to follow in curing a patient, identifying a chemical, or designing a bridge. Yet this is not what we observe. Instead, we observe exactly the opposite: unresolvable disagreement and confusion. That is clearly a failed prediction. A failed prediction means a false theory. Therefore, Christianity is false.

Typically, Christians try to make excuses for God that protect our free will. Either the human will is more powerful than the will of God, and therefore can actually block his words from being heard despite all his best and mighty efforts, or God cares more about our free choice not to hear him than about saving our souls, and so God himself "chooses" to be silent. Of course, there is no independent evidence of either this remarkable human power to thwart God, or this peculiar desire in God, and so this is a completely "ad hoc" theory: something just "made up" out of thin air in order to rescue the actual theory that continually fails to fit the evidence. But for reasons I'll explore later, such "added elements" are never worthy of belief unless independently confirmed: you have to know they are true. You can't just "claim" they are true. Truth is not invented. It can only be discovered. Otherwise, Christianity is just a hypothesis that has yet to find sufficient confirmation in actual evidence.

Be that as it may. Though "maybe, therefore probably" is not a logical way to arrive at any belief, let's assume the Christian can somehow "prove" (with objective evidence everyone can agree is relevant and true) that we have this power or God has this desire. Even on that presumption, there are unsolvable problems with this "additional" hypothesis. Right from the start, it fails to explain why believers disagree. The fact that believers can't agree on the content of God's message or desires also refutes the theory that he wants us to be clear on these things. This failed prediction cannot be explained away by any appeal to free will--for these people have chosen to hear God, and not only to hear him, but to accept Jesus Christ as the shepherd of their very soul. So no one can claim these people chose not to hear God. Therefore, either God is telling them different things, or there is no God. Even if there is a God, but he is deliberately sowing confusion, this contradicts what Christianity predicts to be God's desire, which entails Christianity is the wrong religion. Either way, Christianity is false.

So this theory doesn't work. It fails to predict what we actually observe. But even considering atheists like me, this "ad hoc" excuse still fails to save Christianity from the evidence. When I doubted the Big Bang theory, I voiced the reasons for my doubts but continued to pursue the evidence, frequently speaking with several physicists who were "believers." Eventually, they presented all the logic and evidence in terms I understood, and I realized I was wrong: the Big Bang theory is well-supported by the evidence and is at present the best explanation of all the facts by far. Did these physicists violate my free will? Certainly not. I chose to pursue the truth and hear them out. So, too, I and countless others have chosen to give God a fair hearing--if only he would speak. I would listen to him even now, at this very moment. Yet he remains silent. Therefore, it cannot be claimed that I am "choosing" not to hear him. And therefore, the fact that he still does not speak refutes the hypothesis. Nothing about free will can save the theory here.
 
Helios, are we just self organizing patterns
creating ourselves for the purpose of
structuring the energy/matter of this graveyard universe
for easier digestion by higher beings?

Lila the divine play of gods ye are gods
Sex and nuclear bombs are the ultimate play of us techno-gods.
Your Play relies on domination within a set of rules set by
the rule-makers of this realm (techno-gods).
We squash flies but humans degrade themselves.
We are not yet perfect systems, because we age and die
We cannot be gods because we cannot create anything

We might imagine ourselves as gods in relation
to unthinking dogs insects bacteria plants
and to be sure, existence is the requirement of being
and thought is the primitive proto-medium of godhead
but we are only at 0.71 on the Kardashev scale, which measures the amount
of energy usage by a civilization- we are infants beginning to develop self integrated global consciousness through this electronic communications medium
Level One is using all the energy available on the home planet- Terra
Level Two is using all the energy from the home phusion source- Sol
Level Three
Level Four
Level Five
Level Six
Level Seven- Well its all on wikipedia.
God is learning with us, because we create anew for him.
Maybe God is the Omniversity.
is the ultimate god just an unbelievably ancient civilization
are we the simulation of an ultrapowerful being
are we the body of an ultrapower being
 
Kilgore said:
No1 can really talk to God. But they can talk to Pope which is the closest thing to God.

Well, n/m. They can talk to "God" but they won't ever get an answer back. But if they talk to Pope or a priest or some other mofo then they will get an answer back.

Disagree. God has spoken 2 me & speaks to many. Just because he doesnt speak to you doesnt mean that God doesnt speak to noone.
 
SexWivMusic said:
Disagree. God has spoken 2 me & speaks to many. Just because he doesnt speak to you doesnt mean that God doesnt speak to noone.

auditory halucinations are fucken awsome, eh?
 
Revrent_mike said:
Here's a thought.

Disclaimer: If God is God and truly exists outside of our universe, then He is obviously of a different nature than us and speculation about His thoughts and feelings is almost ludicrous since we have no way of knowing and even if we did, we have no way of knowing that He would think and feel anything like us mortal beings.
How do you reconcile this with the bible, which shows god being angry, pleased, etc.?
That said, suppose God exists and created us in His image and knows what He is doing and is omnipotent or all-powerful so that nothing happens that He is not aware of and could theoretically control or stop.

Why would He then put us in what seems to be such a deplorable circumstance? How can He know of our suffering without putting an end to it and still claim He loves us?

Maybe He needs to prove His love for us even more . . . kind of like when someone saves the life of another and they are forever grateful. Maybe God's thinking goes something like this, "They won't believe Me and the don't trust Me. I will cause them to think they are stuck in the most tortuous reality, thinking that they have no escape but death, and that even then they face an eternity of even greater suffering. In short, I will make them think it is impossible to escape. And then I will do the impossible and save them. And when they return to Me, they will understand that it is all over and was all done for their sake and that their new-found eternal bliss was dependent on the pruning they received through their short stint on earth."
That's just downright manipulative. If we were already in this horrible situation and god stepped in to save us, then we would be right to love him. This is like your first example of someone saving anothers life. But what if I put that same person in harms way, for the purpose of saving them and therefore winning their affection?
Kind of like a parent who sends their child to their room to wallow in guilt and self loathing for a while before finally offering them mercy and forgiveness for the wrong they have done.
I don't think (at least I hope) that's not the reason parents send kids to their room. Getting sent to your room is a punishment, meant to discourage whatever behavior triggered it.
 
Why are we in this horrible situation? Original sin, lack of faith, miscomphrehension, ill intent, etc. God can speak to you without using voices.

Revrent_mike makes some good points except that God has nothing to prove.

Kilgore, it's not about SIDES; it's about angles.
 
Revrent_mike said:
Disclaimer: If God is God and truly exists outside of our universe, then He is obviously of a different nature than us and speculation about His thoughts and feelings is almost ludicrous since we have no way of knowing and even if we did, we have no way of knowing that He would think and feel anything like us mortal beings.
perhaps. i tend to think of god as a moving target and this existence outside of our universe or understanding is necessary.

the christian religion is basically a powerful meme. in order for the meme to survive, god can't be defined - he needs to be flexible enough to respond to any challenge and a definition would limit that.

if somebody comes up with a powerful argument against the idea of god, just move the goalposts slightly. again.

but the bible says this... you're interpreting it too literally.

but the bible says that... you're not interpreting it literally enough,

i'l believe in god when he shows me a simple miracle.... that's not how it works. you cant' test god - you have to believe, then you'll see.

it's simple, frustrating as hell and brilliant.

alasdair
 
Kilgore said:
And how exactly has God spoken to you?

It isnt an audible voice. It's hard to explain how i heard God. Pictures of words is prolly the best way 2 explain it. God has only spoken to me twice. First time i was singing a christian (Hillsong) song & the Holy Spirit said: "I need you to" & then 2nd time was when i needed help with something so i asked God for the help & he said: "I will".
 
Kilgore said:
You don't really know that. To a bacteria the human body may be the universe. To a maggot the apple and the carcase might be he universe. To a human the Earth is our universe because we really don't know much about the rest of space.

So basically by being humans it doesn't make us special.
I understand that, the whole thing was kinda tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, just because we have the ability to categorize things, doesn't make them inherently so.

Kind of like a parent who sends their child to their room to wallow in guilt and self loathing for a while before finally offering them mercy and forgiveness for the wrong they have done.
I think the flaw with that idea is that you're assuming that God thinks like a human (or even that he thinks at all. after all, thought is a largely human ability).

Excuses don't fly. The Christian proposes that a supremely powerful being exists who wants us to set things right, and therefore doesn't want us to get things even more wrong. This is an intelligible hypothesis, which predicts there should be no more confusion about which religion or doctrine is true than there is about the fundamentals of medicine, engineering, physics, chemistry, or even meteorology. It should be indisputably clear what God wants us to do, and what he doesn't want us to do. Any disputes that might still arise about that would be as easily and decisively resolved as any dispute between two doctors, chemists, or engineers as to the right course to follow in curing a patient, identifying a chemical, or designing a bridge. Yet this is not what we observe. Instead, we observe exactly the opposite: unresolvable disagreement and confusion. That is clearly a failed prediction. A failed prediction means a false theory. Therefore, Christianity is false.
I'm not a fan of Christianity at all, but I would say they are more misguided than false. There are good ideas in any religion, it is the way they go about presenting these ideas to the non-believers that kind of takes them off track. I think if they just followed their own advice, forgave everyone, and turned the other cheek, the world would be a better place. But they're just human too, so can you blame them if they see things a certain way?

It isnt an audible voice. It's hard to explain how i heard God. Pictures of words is prolly the best way 2 explain it. God has only spoken to me twice. First time i was singing a christian (Hillsong) song & the Holy Spirit said: "I need you to" & then 2nd time was when i needed help with something so i asked God for the help & he said: "I will".
They'll call it schizophrenia but I say to hell with them. :)
 
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