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[MEGA] God v.2

What are you talking about? PEOPLE murder other people, not religion. It has nothing to do with it coming before the "guns kill people" argument. You clearly missed the point of what I was saying...?

Religion is not some big guy with a gun that kills people. If people murder people and use their religion as an excuse, that is still murder, being done by people. People use all sorts of things as excuses to do horrible things. There is no reason to attach spirituality to murder and holocausts just because some people have twisted their religions around as an excuse to murder. That has nothing to do with spirituality whatsoever. The original topic of this thread was bluelighters loving God, not religion.

And when did I say "no one" is responsible???

Sometimes, I swear I feel I am talking in a foreign language when I try and get points across on these threads.... I don't get it. :\

People kill people, but so do it for their religion. People kill JUST for their religion. It's hard to take religion out of the murder if that was the reason behind it. Not everyone has the same view of spirituality as you, you need to accept that sometimes religion and spirituality IS as vault for murder.
 
I only read the first post so forgive me for not keeping up with the conversation but seriously the thoughts you manifest by thinking about God can be so life changing and really show you the right way to love and forgiveness and really caring.

I'm sure many Christians would agree with me as it's something you have to experience and let go with.
 
People kill people, but so do it for their religion. People kill JUST for their religion. It's hard to take religion out of the murder if that was the reason behind it. Not everyone has the same view of spirituality as you, you need to accept that sometimes religion and spirituality IS as vault for murder.

I never said some people didn't use their religion as an excuse to do terrible things. I agreed with you on that.

And I quite obviously know that not everyone has the same view of spirituality as me. :) That's my point! Don't lump all spirituality together!

It's a negative attachment you are choosing to hold, which is fine, but... it doesn't seem very productive. Or fair to the billions of peaceful religious folks all over the world...no? Like I said, it's just a negative attachment, a viewpoint, which is okay to look at, as long as you don't let it give you preconceived ideas about any religious person you come across. That would only be unfair to you (I'm using "you" in the grand sense, not personally, I don't know you well enough to know what you think of people upon meeting them) and you might block some really awesome people from your life just because of knowing they are religious.

Be open to all people as individuals and you might learn something from them. I used to be pretty closed off to hardcore right wing Christian types, even as a spiritual person myself, but upon meeting some amazing people who have very different views than me but are still able to communicate and share, I have opened my mind even more to the concept that there is no one right way to the "truth".
 
You can't prove your rejection of faith to be superior to any of the flavors of supernatural belief, either. No matter what, life is transitory for each of us, this entire universe in its present form is transitory, and this existence is each of ours to love, live, and believe however we see fit.

Really? How many wars have been started because one side is blindly called to actions through atheism? How many people have been tortured in the name of atheism? How many scientific discoveries have been blocked because of atheism?

I'll even forgive these actions of mass malfeasance for a second. How much time has been wasted contemplating the nature of an invisible friend? How many countless hours have been squandered while one ponders what arbitrary and vague notion of an afterlife best suits their emotional needs? At best, these supernatural thoughts waste time and energy. At worst, they result in the loss of human life and retardation of human intellect.

So yes, one can logically deduce that some belief systems are better than others. I get that you don't like confrontation and you would rather say all is equal instead of making someone feel uncomfortable, but life isn't always about making others feel as good as possible. Sometimes reality makes some people unhappy, and I think that you are being disingenuous with your comments. Of course no one can prove 100% that one belief is right, but nothing is ever proven 100%, and to start going around treating everything as equal just because something cannot be shown to be absolutely proven is ridiculous. Furthermore, just because some people lead peaceful lives and embrace science while believing in supernatural powers does not mean the belief in the supernatural is a harmless thing. On the whole, it has been shown as a primitive and antiquated belief system.
 
After overdosing, the doctors gave me a 10% chance to live through the first night. The next day, my body was even worse and I died twice. My doctors didn't even think that I could be saved. But within a week, my body was perfectly fine. Not a single doctor has been able to explain how I lived.

I don't believe in God solely because of that, but that proves to me that God exists and I am here for a reason.
 
I never said some people didn't use their religion as an excuse to do terrible things. I agreed with you on that.

And I quite obviously know that not everyone has the same view of spirituality as me. :) That's my point! Don't lump all spirituality together!

It's a negative attachment you are choosing to hold, which is fine, but... it doesn't seem very productive. Or fair to the billions of peaceful religious folks all over the world...no? Like I said, it's just a negative attachment, a viewpoint, which is okay to look at, as long as you don't let it give you preconceived ideas about any religious person you come across. That would only be unfair to you (I'm using "you" in the grand sense, not personally, I don't know you well enough to know what you think of people upon meeting them) and you might block some really awesome people from your life just because of knowing they are religious.

Be open to all people as individuals and you might learn something from them. I used to be pretty closed off to hardcore right wing Christian types, even as a spiritual person myself, but upon meeting some amazing people who have very different views than me but are still able to communicate and share, I have opened my mind even more to the concept that there is no one right way to the "truth".

Ok, even if you remove all of the other generalizations associated with spirituality you are left with one intrinsic property you can't get around. The belief in a supernatural or higher power is a faith based notion that provides emotional comfort.

I am saying that this is unnecessary in this age of science. It is a primitive way to try and figure out how the world works and how you fit into it. It is just as primitive as saying that a rainbow is a little mark from god instead of understanding how light interacts with fluid. Of course it is much easier to go this route, since scientific inquiry takes time and commitment if one is to understand it, but the truth is always better to ascertain, even if it takes more effort. It also takes emotional courage to realize that we simply have no good reason to believe in anything supernatural outside of our own emotional desires.

I am with qwe, people need to stop wearing the kid gloves with religion (supernatural beliefs) and treat it like the archaic belief system that it is. Yes it will take emotional courage and intellectual fortitude to attain an alternate belief system, but the progress of humanity depends on it.
 
After overdosing, the doctors gave me a 10% chance to live through the first night. The next day, my body was even worse and I died twice. My doctors didn't even think that I could be saved. But within a week, my body was perfectly fine. Not a single doctor has been able to explain how I lived.

I don't believe in God solely because of that, but that proves to me that God exists and I am here for a reason.


How does this prove anything about a god? This happens all the time. This would be like someone having an epileptic seizure 1000 years ago and attributing it to the spirits of Satan. As I have stated before, it is the easy way out of an explanation.
 
After overdosing, the doctors gave me a 10% chance to live through the first night. The next day, my body was even worse and I died twice. My doctors didn't even think that I could be saved. But within a week, my body was perfectly fine. Not a single doctor has been able to explain how I lived.

I don't believe in God solely because of that, but that proves to me that God exists and I am here for a reason.

That is a beautiful story. I am glad you lived to tell it. And I'm glad that it was a source of renewed faith for you. Keep spreading the faith and the good vibes, just reading that story brightened my morning. You survived for a reason.

:) <3
 
Religion is (...) some big guy with a gun that kills people
beautiful analogy!

let me add to it, for some nuance

it's a big DONUT guy around the earth (since you pray upwards... sorry anyone at the poles) and he has a big ass machine gun, but with SMALL rounds cuz he prefers wounds to catastrophes*. he likes to prance around all day shooting randomly on earth causing chaos** here and there causing about 33% of our problems on earth***, physical and mental

* well SOMETIMES he's in the mood for breaking out the bazooka and causing mass panic and disaster; he's a god just like everyone else

** no need for a "god works in mysterious ways" here: chaos is the cutting edge of order, a beautiful quote

*** well he created it, and psychology says, the will to create is matched in humans by the will to destroy, and a child will always destroy his sand castle. and since god was modelled after man, qed
 
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Really? How many wars have been started because one side is blindly called to actions through atheism? How many people have been tortured in the name of atheism? How many scientific discoveries have been blocked because of atheism?

I'll even forgive these actions of mass malfeasance for a second. How much time has been wasted contemplating the nature of an invisible friend? How many countless hours have been squandered while one ponders what arbitrary and vague notion of an afterlife best suits their emotional needs? At best, these supernatural thoughts waste time and energy. At worst, they result in the loss of human life and retardation of human intellect.
it may be a necessary evil, an evolutionary sociological stepping stone. see the chaos quote in the post above
 
That is a beautiful story. I am glad you lived to tell it. And I'm glad that it was a source of renewed faith for you. Keep spreading the faith and the good vibes, just reading that story brightened my morning. You survived for a reason.

:) <3

I think he survived so god could have more time to punish him and allow him to feel pain. His survival is a sign that god wants to do more evil things in his life.

See where this line of thinking gets you? Your comment and mine have an equal amount of reason and proof to back them up. There is no good reason to believe one over the other. Don't you think there is a better way to analyze what goes on here on earth?
 
it may be a necessary evil, an evolutionary sociological stepping stone. see the chaos quote in the post above

I agree, I have always adhered to the notion that religion developed partly as a sociological glue and partly as a form of individual therapy so that people could cope with the evils of the world.

I just feel that we are at a point now where we can move on to the next paradigm. Religion is no longer necessary to explain things, mend society, or help individuals with their emotions. Of course, as with any paradigm shift, there will be some issues and loss of comfort in the transition, but the overall health of humans as a species will improve. Lets all evolve together :).
 
beautiful analogy!

Let me add to it, for some nuance

it's a big donut guy around the earth (since you pray upwards... Sorry anyone at the poles) and he has a big ass machine gun, but with small rounds cuz he prefers wounds to catastrophes*. He likes to prance around all day shooting randomly on earth causing chaos** here and there causing about 33% of our problems on earth***, physical and mental

* well sometimes he's in the mood for breaking out the bazooka and causing mass panic and disaster; he's a god just like everyone else

** no need for a "god works in mysterious ways" here: Chaos is the cutting edge of order, a beautiful quote

*** well he created it, and psychology says, the will to create is matched in humans by the will to destroy, and a child will always destroy his sand castle. And since god was modelled after man, qed

lolwattt :D That was awesome mental imagery for me, lol.
 
I think he survived so god could have more time to punish him and allow him to feel pain. His survival is a sign that god wants to do more evil things in his life.

See where this line of thinking gets you? Your comment and mine have an equal amount of reason and proof to back them up. There is no good reason to believe one over the other. Don't you think there is a better way to analyze what goes on here on earth?
not to mention that the paramedics could have fudged a number and gave the wrong chances, or that he was "lucky" which does happen from time to time. i'm actually lucky all the time, it's awesome
 
not to mention that the paramedics could have fudged a number and gave the wrong chances, or that he was "lucky" which does happen from time to time. i'm actually lucky all the time, it's awesome

It amazes me that out of all these explanations people will choose the most unlikely and far out explanation. I guess it has to do with people wanting to think that the universe is always centered around them.
 
Really? How many wars have been started because one side is blindly called to actions through atheism? How many people have been tortured in the name of atheism? How many scientific discoveries have been blocked because of atheism?

This is not a logically sound analogy, because atheism is not a positively defined category of belief. It's negatively defined -- the only thing that all atheists have in common is something they all lack, not something they all have. So the question then becomes, are people who lack a belief in a higher power a separate population from people who have a belief in a higher power, with regards to willingness to use violent and exploitative means to achieve their aims? I think a sociological or psychological study able to demonstrate this unequivocally would be very methodologically hard to design. For example, high socioeconomic status would be a confounding factor, because it's causally related to both low degrees of religiosity and low propensity to violent crime, joining the army, joining a gang, or most other measurable indicators you could use for 'permissive stance toward the use of brute force'. This wouldn't prove that losing one's religion makes one a less violent person.

I'll even forgive these actions of mass malfeasance for a second. How much time has been wasted contemplating the nature of an invisible friend? How many countless hours have been squandered while one ponders what arbitrary and vague notion of an afterlife best suits their emotional needs? At best, these supernatural thoughts waste time and energy. At worst, they result in the loss of human life and retardation of human intellect.

See, here's the thing that kills me about these sorts of impassioned arguments from physicalists (formerly known as materialists): By choosing to be a physicalist and accepting all that this philosophically implies, you've undermined the basis for really valuing anything above anything. After all, if physicalism is true, then we're all just random, quite possibly one-time, fleeting, unbelievably insignificant accidents in a cold, indifferent, impersonal universe, that itself is ultimately bound for heat death and disappearance forever. I dunno dude, with that prospect, it's pretty hard to put on a pedestal such things as human intellect, the life of the mind, reason, advanced technology, history, peace and prosperity, or even art. It's hard to really say that anything has intrinsic value, in a world where nothing and no one has intrinsic meaning or any intrinsic purpose. If this is the case, why NOT just while away your life wallowing in your warm liquid goo of choice with your pink drink in one hand, a needle in your arm, and your hand on your genitals? Why not just off yourself right now? Or, if it's not going to ultimately matter at all if I'm wrong, and I won't even be there to see that I guessed wrong, why NOT just give in to my yearnings for a higher power and/or a transcendent reality? Under physicalism, there's really no reason why not to. Atheism has no AntiGod, who'll damn me to an eternity in a nether-realm without a single book or Internet connection, if I stray from the path of unwavering reason.

The above paragraph is my standard spiel on why I don't buy secular humanism.

So yes, one can logically deduce that some belief systems are better than others.

'Better' is relative, and implies a purpose. Better at doing what? Better at accomplishing what? (I'm aware you've already answered this implicitly, so I'll save you having to repeat yourself, and confirm that I'm indeed asking this rhetorically.) It's clear that having no belief in a higher power or anything supernatural serves your personal purposes well. That much is clear. And I won't begrudge you this metaphysical stance -- it's your life to live, it's your choices to make. If you're happy and healthy and your life is in balance, who am I to gripe?

But please understand that your worldview does not serve anyone and everyone's needs and purposes well. Not by a long shot. In fact, for some people, it's the last thing they need.

And so, that said, I'm going to politely remind everyone here one more time that no one posting in P&S is welcome to antagonize another poster for their stated beliefs, if they clearly weren't looking for debate. This rule is in the P&S guidelines now, because this forum serves a broader range of people, and is a more enjoyable experience for all, filled with more light than heat, when it's followed. If anyone feels this is unreasonable, I'm happy to ask the Senior Moderators to hear both sides, and make a judgement as to whether this is a fair rule. If they deem it unfair, I'll not only take down the rule, but turn in my modstick too -- I'll not mod a forum where this rule isn't upheld or wanted.

I get that you don't like confrontation and you would rather say all is equal instead of making someone feel uncomfortable, but life isn't always about making others feel as good as possible.

Life may not always be about it, but this forum is. We're not a bunch of scientists or academic philosophers. We're not a professional union or a paid think tank. We don't publish a peer-reviewed journal. We don't claim to be an authoritative source on anything besides minimally harmful psychoactive drug use. P&S is here to serve the needs of all people for whom drug use is connected to philosophical and spiritual pursuits, so that they may use the right drugs in the right dosages whilst taking the right precautions, so as to achieve THEIR PERSONAL philosophical and spiritual aims with minimal risk of harm to themselves. This includes many people who believe deeply in things supernatural. To greet such people here with "Turn pirate or walk the plank!" would not be serving our mission as part of BL.

Sometimes reality makes some people unhappy, and I think that you are being disingenuous with your comments.

Sorry you feel that way. My stance on this matter is actually something I've given quite a lot of thought to, and discussed at length with other moderators here. I'll make sure next time I live up to Enlitx's standards of ingenuity.

Of course no one can prove 100% that one belief is right, but nothing is ever proven 100%, and to start going around treating everything as equal just because something cannot be shown to be absolutely proven is ridiculous. Furthermore, just because some people lead peaceful lives and embrace science while believing in supernatural powers does not mean the belief in the supernatural is a harmless thing. On the whole, it has been shown as a primitive and antiquated belief system.

Thanks for your opinion, man.
 
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See, here's the thing that kills me about these sorts of impassioned arguments from physicalists (formerly known as materialists): By choosing to be a physicalist and accepting all that this philosophically implies, you've undermined the basis for really valuing anything above anything. After all, if physicalism is true, then we're all just random, quite possibly one-time, fleeting, unbelievably insignificant accidents in a cold, indifferent, impersonal universe, that itself is ultimately bound for heat death and disappearance forever. I dunno dude, with that prospect, it's pretty hard to put on a pedestal such things as human intellect, the life of the mind, reason, advanced technology, history, peace and prosperity, or even art. It's hard to really say that anything has intrinsic value, in a world where nothing and no one has intrinsic meaning or any intrinsic purpose. If this is the case, why NOT just while away your life wallowing in your warm liquid goo of choice with your pink drink in one hand, a needle in your arm, and your hand on your genitals? Why not just off yourself right now? Or, if it's not going to ultimately matter at all if I'm wrong, and I won't even be there to see that I guessed wrong, why NOT just give in to my yearnings for a higher power and/or a transcendent reality? Under physicalism, there's really no reason why not to. Atheism has no AntiGod, who'll damn me to an eternity in a nether-realm without a single book or Internet connection, if I stray from the path of unwavering reason.

IPlenty of philosophers have given moving arguments to finding meaning, purpose, and drive without the need for anything having "intrinsic" values or spiritual conceptions of reality. Really at the end of the day it isn't the grand philosophical or metaphysical conception of reality that gets people through the day its the tangible human interactions and experiences which need no metaphysical framework through which to derive value or meaning or deep fulfillment. We have complex human consciousness through which to derive individualized meaning and purpose, it doesn't have to be pushed upon us by divinity or magic.

I mean it seems as if your argument against physicalism is "but I don't like the outcome because its not happy".

You begin with denouncing physicalist philosophy and then extol the virtues of relativistic thinking, does this not seem to reinforce the lack of intrinsic value or meaning?

I think that most "believers" undervalue the potential of human consciousness to provide meaning, drive, purpose, etc etc ...
 
IPlenty of philosophers have given moving arguments to finding meaning, purpose, and drive without the need for anything having "intrinsic" values or spiritual conceptions of reality.

Try the one on me that you've been most impressed with. Drop me a few names that you hold dear. I've read a number of them, and even explored secular humanism for a while, and I haven't been convinced by any of them. I can only really think of one nominally secular system of morality has ever achieved lasting popularity: Confucianism. And this took hold in places that for a large part retained indigenous folk beliefs regarding the supernatural.

Yeah, I'm aware of the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numerum' -- popularity does make something right or wrong. But it sure is a good measure of people's perceived needs, and what people can find use for.

In conclusion, I don't think there's any substitute, for most people, for longingly and imaginatively extrapolating our knowledge of and interaction with this world, into purported realms beyond.

Really at the end of the day it isn't the grand philosophical or metaphysical conception of reality that gets people through the day its the tangible human interactions and experiences which need no metaphysical framework through which to derive value or meaning or deep fulfillment.

I say it's both. And lots of other things too.

We have complex human consciousness through which to derive individualized meaning and purpose, it doesn't have to be pushed upon us by divinity or magic.

Granted. But nor does it rule out divinity or magic.

I mean it seems as if your argument against physicalism is "but I don't like the outcome because its not happy".

Yeah, I find physicalism pretty unacceptably bleak. But beyond that, I am far from convinced it behooves anyone, that it's anyone's duty or responsibility, to jettison all notions supernatural, or to aggressively or obtrusively push other people to do so. I'm not convinced that physicalism is the only logical possibility that that an intelligent, thinking, educated person who's entirely honest with himself and others could possibly hold. And nor am I convinced that it's the only sensible option for an ethically-minded person who truly has the future of humanity in mind.

You begin with denouncing physicalist philosophy and then extol the virtues of relativistic thinking, does this not seem to reinforce the lack of intrinsic value or meaning?

No, not necessarily. You believing what you believe, and me believing something entirely different and contradictory, could just be of each of us playing our respective and proper parts in some master plan.

I think that most "believers" undervalue the potential of human consciousness to provide meaning, drive, purpose, etc etc ...

You can't really lump all believers into one category on this. What about Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, Sufi Muslims, Jewish Renewalists and Kabbalists, Quakers, Western esotericists, and Unitarians (plus many more), who believe that each human consciousness IS a piece of the divine godhead, and would certainly agree that meaning, drive, and purpose flow from it?
 
I never said some people didn't use their religion as an excuse to do terrible things. I agreed with you on that.

And I quite obviously know that not everyone has the same view of spirituality as me. :) That's my point! Don't lump all spirituality together!

It's a negative attachment you are choosing to hold, which is fine, but... it doesn't seem very productive. Or fair to the billions of peaceful religious folks all over the world...no? Like I said, it's just a negative attachment, a viewpoint, which is okay to look at, as long as you don't let it give you preconceived ideas about any religious person you come across. That would only be unfair to you (I'm using "you" in the grand sense, not personally, I don't know you well enough to know what you think of people upon meeting them) and you might block some really awesome people from your life just because of knowing they are religious.

Be open to all people as individuals and you might learn something from them. I used to be pretty closed off to hardcore right wing Christian types, even as a spiritual person myself, but upon meeting some amazing people who have very different views than me but are still able to communicate and share, I have opened my mind even more to the concept that there is no one right way to the "truth".

Since this thread is full of analogies, I think I'll add my own.

Little billy thought that he was the most superior, intelligent child in his entire class. Billy was so sure of his capabilities, that he decided to place a wager with the teacher. Billy said, "If I get a 100 on this spelling test, then everyone else gets a 100." The teacher thought for a little bit, then agreed, under one condition. If Billy did not get a 100, everyone would fail. Billy didn't care for the other class mates, since he thought he was the best anyway, but he didn't mind helping them out. Billy was the only student who didn't get a 100, but everyone else failed anyway. Everyone lost because of one person. One person (ONE religion or belief) can ruin it for everyone (now I'm waiting for you to say you accept that notion when it's clear you don't).
 
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