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[MEGA] God v.2

>>You're spinning your wheels at this point with me, because I stand by what I said before. Religion is used as a convenient excuse to fight over issues that are for the most part quite related to material problems in this world. So long as those and other similar problems persist, then religious or not, people will get violent over them.>>

while i agree, wouldn't there be *more* violence with religion?

it just adds another reason to kill. it increases bigotry etc. it'll bind a society together, but some of the members of that society are going to be burned at the stake

not to mention the quibbles of nations, religion gives nation-bashing-nation a huge boost
 
Enlitx, I think I've adequately addressed why I think your summary of my viewpoint doesn't do it justice, and why I won't just affirm it and be quiet.

You do touch a nerve with me, and I think it comes down to this: I feel very strongly that people (and all other sentient beings) have a right to deem and define 'reality' as they each see fit, and I don't think it's your place or anyone's to deny or begrudge someone that liberty.

I think we should just cut this conversation short, because I don't want to take anything else personally. And rest assured, it's your viewpoint and how you wield it that chafe me, Enlitx, not you as a person. In fact, I bet if we avoided this topic altogether, I'd probably find you a perfectly cool guy to meet.

I do really appreciate your willingness to abide by the spirit of the forum, by the way.
 
I believe that GOD is a "power greater than myself, that can give me Good Orderly Direction in my life"

As others have said, God and spirituality are two completely separate things
 
Alcohol120 said:
In reply to the OP;

I think it's amusing how you hate when people push religion on you, yet you're outright saying there is no god and criticizing people for believing there is. You say humanity suffers from conflicting religious views, and that people should accept your way of thinking, but maybe you're the one who needs to look at things differently? You offer questions of "where has god been?" yet if you looked at things from a different angle you may want to ask "where have we gotten ourselves?"
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I'm not pushing something based on mythology on others, though. I'm urging people to believe in what they can see.
 
Believe what you will. I've been an atheist since I was very young, and I've found such beauty and power in the world without any kind of theistic input. I don't care what others believe, whatever makes them happy. Really, I promote freedom of choice more than anything, including choices I disagree with.

I've read the bible through many times (in fact I used it to learn to read as a small child) and I've done a fair amount of research into a lot of religions. I've always found some beauty in them, some ideal or philosophy that is profound and powerful. I've also always found things I disagree with.

I just try to keep an open mind and take what I can but discard what I know to be false (or feel to be, at least). Science is my tool for discerning one from the other typically, but it's not always the best tool. Some things you just have to trust yourself and turn it over and feel it out in your mind and your heart. You know. :)
 
there is a historical definition of god / gods

and it annoys me when people say "for me, god is everything that's around / or whatever"

because this induces misunderstanding
you're not talking about the same thing as a person following a traditional religion is talking about

so let's use a different word or just explain your concept

but using the word "god" to describe something else is the same as someone saying
"I like chocolate"
and someone else answering
"me too, but what i call chocolate is orange jam"

"oh, ok! we both like chocolate"

no
you don't both like chocolate

and you don't both believe in "god"

the word "god" is loaded with historical concepts and it totally misleads others to use the same word when you're actually talking about a different concept (ex : universal consciousness)

let's call a cat a cat and a dog a dog
 
gods are superstitious constructs . there are hundreds and hundreds of organized religions thus they are all bullspit man made constructs as well .
spirituality is a cocked up notion if it goes past the semantic ' so and so appears to be in good spirits' etc .
 
Liquid Sunshine said:
I just try to keep an open mind and take what I can but discard what I know to be false (or feel to be, at least). Science is my tool for discerning one from the other typically, but it's not always the best tool. Some things you just have to trust yourself and turn it over and feel it out in your mind and your heart. You know. :)
Click to expand...

This is basically an outline on how I try to live.
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
That is a beautiful story. I am glad you lived to tell it. And I'm glad that it was a source of renewed faith for you. Keep spreading the faith and the good vibes, just reading that story brightened my morning. You survived for a reason.

:) <3
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Good to hear that it brightened your day.

Seems like you can't mention anything about being a Christian on here without a million people attacking you and saying all kind of bullshit. I don't harass others for what they believe and belittle them. But Christians are the close minded ones.

It's really fucked up how some people responded to what I said about my experience. I will pray for yall.
 
TearItDown said:
I'm not pushing something based on mythology on others, though. I'm urging people to believe in what they can see.
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell you aren't urging, you're saying what you believe is correct. You're criticizing someone believing and expressing that they believe, and saying it bothers you. What you're doing is worse, since you're not just expressing it, you're trying to deter someone from believing something else. I bet since you hate someone even expressing it, you would REALLY hate it if those people got in your face about it and said you were wrong. A thread with a title of "Why do so many atheists get in your face" would bother you. Except the people saying they love god aren't getting in your face, they're just expressing something that's helped them.

You can't see magnetism, you can't see the wind, you can't see that the universe is infinite, but you believe in those things, right?
 
qwe said:
>>You're spinning your wheels at this point with me, because I stand by what I said before. Religion is used as a convenient excuse to fight over issues that are for the most part quite related to material problems in this world. So long as those and other similar problems persist, then religious or not, people will get violent over them.>>

while i agree, wouldn't there be *more* violence with religion?

it just adds another reason to kill. it increases bigotry etc. it'll bind a society together, but some of the members of that society are going to be burned at the stake
Click to expand...

Hate the tool or hate the one who wields it as a weapon? I think that's the philosophical issue here.

qwe, I get the sense more and more that you and I basically believe the same thing but are coming at from two very different backgrounds and therefore use very different wordings and analogies.

My last word on the subject: If infinite purposelessness gives us infinite freedom to define meaning the way we choose, then I'm going to take this liberty as it's given me to use as I see fit, and use it to hold out hope that that purposelessness is itself an illusion.
 
Alcohol120 said:
As far as I can tell you aren't urging, you're saying what you believe is correct. You're criticizing someone believing and expressing that they believe, and saying it bothers you. What you're doing is worse, since you're not just expressing it, you're trying to deter someone from believing something else. I bet since you hate someone even expressing it, you would REALLY hate it if those people got in your face about it and said you were wrong. A thread with a title of "Why do so many atheists get in your face" would bother you. Except the people saying they love god aren't getting in your face, they're just expressing something that's helped them.

You can't see magnetism, you can't see the wind, you can't see that the universe is infinite, but you believe in those things, right?
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I see evidence for those things, I see no evidence for a deity. I've also never read about a war started by atheists for the cause of atheism against another religion. That is a huge point I'm trying to make.
 
Little billy thought that he was the most superior, intelligent child in his entire class. Billy was so sure of his capabilities, that he decided to place a wager with the teacher. Billy said, "If I get a 100 on this spelling test, then everyone else gets a 100." The teacher thought for a little bit, then agreed, under one condition. If Billy did not get a 100, everyone would fail. Billy didn't care for the other class mates, since he thought he was the best anyway, but he didn't mind helping them out. Billy was the only student who didn't get a 100, but everyone else failed anyway. Everyone lost because of one person. One person (ONE religion or belief) can ruin it for everyone (now I'm waiting for you to say you accept that notion when it's clear you don't).
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I don't know why you'd think I would say I accept that... as you said, I clearly don't see things that way at all.
 
there is a historical definition of god / gods

and it annoys me when people say "for me, god is everything that's around / or whatever"

because this induces misunderstanding
you're not talking about the same thing as a person following a traditional religion is talking about

so let's use a different word or just explain your concept
Click to expand...

Lot's of different words have many uses or definitions. But I think most people who talk about the word "God" do mean it as a universal consciousness or higher power. Or the Universe itself (which, usually to those of us who use the word God, we think of the universe itself as a higher power).
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
I don't know why you'd think I would say I accept that... as you said, I clearly don't see things that way at all.
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So you don't think one religion can ruin it for everyone? Because several have. Several religions took it upon themselves to exterminate other people because their beliefs differ. No group of atheists have ever went to war and exterminated religious people in the name of atheism.
 
I just think that people who are superstitious (i.e. religious) need to realize that the secular population usually has a big hang up with what might be possible. I think MynameisnotDeja seems like a perfectly pleasant person, and I would never fear her, in fact she would probably be really fun to be around. Still, the general idea of a belief system that teaches one to disregard fact, believe with faith, and do so with vigor has led people to do horrible things. I think a lot of atheists just want people to be rational so that their emotional impulses can be checked before a problem could possibly develop.

And yes, I realize atheists are capable of the same violence, but they must do so knowing full well that their actions aren't serving a higher purpose or will be forgiven some day.
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
Lot's of different words have many uses or definitions. But I think most people who talk about the word "God" do mean it as a universal consciousness or higher power. Or the Universe itself (which, usually to those of us who use the word God, we think of the universe itself as a higher power).
Click to expand...

Ya, I would have to agree though that people should stick to a historically defined definition of God. It can get rather confusing and only serves to muddy the waters. If you think that the universe is god, just call it the universe. To me, god generally means a sentient being that is more powerful than humans and generally interested in our affairs, or at least involved in them at some point in time. Anything else could probably be better defined with a separate word.
 
Why do people like God? There are a few possibilities:

A) They value love and compassion above all other human emotions.

B) They can use the banner of God as a veil to hide their deceptive nature, as well as use it to manipulate other people by calling into question their loyalty to God - i.e. they catalyze religion for personal gain. This was called "Slave Morality" by Nietzsche

C) They want to think that "goodness" is something that will be compensated for after death,

C2) ... and in their mind, this allows them to blame their problems on other people by viewing those people as "evil"

D) They are scared of not existing after death. Which actually subconsciously means they are scared that if they die, nobody will remember them. This is because the human mind won't naturally fear death unless some aspect of the Will to Live is being deprived. So if you suddenly find yourself afraid of dying without any immediate reason, it means that your unconscious mind realizes you aren't valued by anyone. Otherwise, when a person is loved and/or has a spouse and children, they will feel a mixture of sadness and joy when approaching death, instead of dreading their death - because their unconscious mind realizes they will live on posthumously.
 
Believing in God does not mean I believe I will exist after death. Just saying. Not everyone who believes in God believes in the typical idea of "heaven" or afterlife.
 
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