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[MEGA] God v.2

Most of the comments from self-proclaimed atheists here seem to use the concepts 'God' and 'religion' interchangeably. I would use 'God' and 'everything' interchangeably, except that the word God conjures a much more emotional recognition of the grandness, wonder and mystery that is involved in the interrelatedness of absolutely everything that exists.
 
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Except that there is more emotive meaning attached to the word 'God', rather than universe. It implies mystery and a more profound recognition of everything. For me, the point of discussing spiritual concepts is to gain a more chiseled idea of my own personal beliefs, not a clearer idea of 'historical definitions.'

Frankly, I think in a discussion with the title 'God?' you should expect the water to be at least a little bit muddy, and if it wasn't I'd be pretty disappointed with the discussion.
 
^ i don't think we need semantics at this point. can't we agree we're talking about the ontological nature of the universe, its structure and rules, and how it effects (and even creates) us?

>>I would use 'God' and 'everything' interchangeably, except that the word God conjures a much more emotional recognition of the grandness, wonder and mystery that is involved in the interrelatedness of absolutely everything that exists.>>

okayyy...... but when you say just "everything", all of that stuff is still there with the word! so you need to make another word that means the same thing, but you give this new word more emotion? let's call the new word "Flying Spaghetti Monster"

btw i totally get the separation between religion and spirituality, religion and god, spirituality and god. as an atheist i think i get these terms semantically correct more than most theists :)
 
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Hahaha, the old flying spaghetti monster!

Well you've said you don't want any more talk of semantics and then go on to debate them! As long as you don't mind...

I think 'God' is a great word because it is so plain and phonetically abstract. Your argument in the third line is damn near perfect, it's just that the obvious silliness of the image that the words 'flying spaghetti monster' conjures up counters the grandness, wonder, mystery, etc. that I was referring to. But yeah, I completely agree that if people want to replace the word 'God' with something else because they can't help but connect it to other people's ideas - that would make a lot of sense, I just really don't feel the need to.

Especially since the word, while meaning different things to many people, still USUALLY sparks a conversation of depth, even (or especially) with atheists. Again, I think the flying spaghetti monster is a good argument, but by trying to be coy and evoke conflict by approaching the perception of god as something silly and funny, I think it puts off people who prefer to approach contemplation of the ontological nature of the universe with respect and humility. I don't think either way is right or wrong, different strokes for different folks.
 
TearItDown said:
People kill people, but so do it for their religion. People kill JUST for their religion. It's hard to take religion out of the murder if that was the reason behind it. Not everyone has the same view of spirituality as you, you need to accept that sometimes religion and spirituality IS as vault for murder.
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Key word here, religion. Religion and belief are two very different things. If you were to compare belief systems to music artists then the believer would be someone who writes his music, publishes it himself and shares it with the world for free - maybe busking for a bit of cash or selling some CDs of his own for a fair price. Those who follow religion rather than finding their own beliefs would the the ones who give in to mainstream music publishing, accepting a big record deal and giving up a lot of their own rights in exchange for it, while these people are not inherently bad, they will sometimes do bad thinks for their publisher (or their religion). The heads of religion are like the great big greedy publishing companies, all they care about is that they have plenty of money and followers.

This is not to say that following a religion is wrong, like I said, everyone needs to decide what they believe, even if what they believe is simply what they see in front of them and nothing else, some people decide a certain religion is right for them, and so they should follow it, however anyone in a religion should remember that they are there to follow their deity/s, not the priests/heads of the religion, and so they should never feel pressured into doing anything just because the religion's book, or the heads of the religion suggest it is right. They should take the time to think about what their peace loving deity's would want, not their war and money-hungry leaders.

I see religion as very similar to gambling, it is not wrong in itself, but the people running it are very very corrupt and greedy people.

as an atheist i think i get these terms semantically correct more than most theists
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Haha, I have to agree there. I am a theist myself, as I mentioned a few pages previously, but admittedly when I first began believing (initially as a Christian) I really was not very educated about religion or belief, I just simply accepted what I was told, and believed it. I also noticed most of my friends who believed the same/similar things also had very little knowledge about what they were actually supposed to believe. Ask most Christians about the bible and in all honesty most atheists could answer your questions better. I then spent the past couple of years combining science, dissociatives (Ketamine) and a lot of research to decide what I finally wanted to believe, finally coming up with a complete picture that to me is scientifically and spiritually accurate.
 
Well you've said you don't want any more talk of semantics and then go on to debate them! As long as you don't mind...
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my bad. with that particular issue ("at this point") i don't unless you disagree... personally i think semantics are underrated
But yeah, I completely agree that if people want to replace the word 'God' with something else because they can't help but connect it to other people's ideas - that would make a lot of sense, I just really don't feel the need to.
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but a lot of these "gods" are VERY different from yours. in fact most are. you are very liberal for a spiritual person in today's age. most believe in the donut that you pray up towards. so basically, i am saying you are trying to say we all need this new word, but now it can be ANY word, and your god-word can be totally diferent than mine
Especially since the word, while meaning different things to many people, still USUALLY sparks a conversation of depth, even (or especially) with atheists
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with all the scifi we have, do we really need one more epic? epic of the universe, heard it a thousand times as a kid. when humanity reaches the singularity, it won't be long before the bible is *archive* status. i'd bet, but we have no clue when the singularity arrives (or if we're destroyed as the bible calls for). but if we survive, the bibles will be watched over by scholars that may or may not get laid (depending on the development of sexbots at the time) :/
 
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But I think most people who talk about the word "God" do mean it as a universal consciousness or higher power. Or the Universe itself (which, usually to those of us who use the word God, we think of the universe itself as a higher power).
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i really don't think so

what percentage of the population do you think actually has any understanding of the concept of universal consciousness?

in many countries, close to no one
people following the 3 religions of the book believe in an old bearded man (but don't draw him!)
people following religions with pantheons believe in multiptle armed gods or other fantasies
even "godless" religions such as buddhism insert spirits wherever they can


for the majority of people, god or gods are more or less omnipotent beings, with personalities, usually a power of creation or even being creators of the universe, to be prayed, reacting to humans' actions, viewing humans as their children and other sentient beings as furniture, etc.


stay aware that the posters of this forum are in nothing representative of global tendencies of thinking

what percentage of the human population has had mystical experiences?

what percentage of the S&P/PD posters population has had mystical experiences?

you'll get a huge difference in results
 
okayyy...... but when you say just "everything", all of that stuff is still there with the word! so you need to make another word that means the same thing, but you give this new word more emotion? let's call the new word "Flying Spaghetti Monster"
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Hehe, it really doesn't matter what you call it. But I agree with medical mecannica about why I use the word "God" vs "Everything". But it really doesn't matter, in the end.. everything is everything and it's all just as vast and magical and amazing no matter what you want to call it. :)
 
vegan said:
i really don't think so

what percentage of the population do you think actually has any understanding of the concept of universal consciousness?

in many countries, close to no one
people following the 3 religions of the book believe in an old bearded man (but don't draw him!)
people following religions with pantheons believe in multiptle armed gods or other fantasies
even "godless" religions such as buddhism insert spirits wherever they can


for the majority of people, god or gods are more or less omnipotent beings, with personalities, usually a power of creation or even being creators of the universe, to be prayed, reacting to humans' actions, viewing humans as their children and other sentient beings as furniture, etc.


stay aware that the posters of this forum are in nothing representative of global tendencies of thinking

what percentage of the human population has had mystical experiences?

what percentage of the S&P/PD posters population has had mystical experiences?

you'll get a huge difference in results
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree the people here aren't really representing the whole world, I guess what I meant by my post is in my experience, many people I know personally or have met and talked about this sort of stuff with have an idea of "God" (or the higher power of the universe) similar to my own.

But, it could just be that we tend to attract others who think like ourselves.
 
Jesusgreen said:
Key word here, religion. Religion and belief are two very different things. If you were to compare belief systems to music artists then the believer would be someone who writes his music, publishes it himself and shares it with the world for free - maybe busking for a bit of cash or selling some CDs of his own for a fair price. Those who follow religion rather than finding their own beliefs would the the ones who give in to mainstream music publishing, accepting a big record deal and giving up a lot of their own rights in exchange for it, while these people are not inherently bad, they will sometimes do bad thinks for their publisher (or their religion). The heads of religion are like the great big greedy publishing companies, all they care about is that they have plenty of money and followers.

This is not to say that following a religion is wrong, like I said, everyone needs to decide what they believe, even if what they believe is simply what they see in front of them and nothing else, some people decide a certain religion is right for them, and so they should follow it, however anyone in a religion should remember that they are there to follow their deity/s, not the priests/heads of the religion, and so they should never feel pressured into doing anything just because the religion's book, or the heads of the religion suggest it is right. They should take the time to think about what their peace loving deity's would want, not their war and money-hungry leaders.

I see religion as very similar to gambling, it is not wrong in itself, but the people running it are very very corrupt and greedy people.



Haha, I have to agree there. I am a theist myself, as I mentioned a few pages previously, but admittedly when I first began believing (initially as a Christian) I really was not very educated about religion or belief, I just simply accepted what I was told, and believed it. I also noticed most of my friends who believed the same/similar things also had very little knowledge about what they were actually supposed to believe. Ask most Christians about the bible and in all honesty most atheists could answer your questions better. I then spent the past couple of years combining science, dissociatives (Ketamine) and a lot of research to decide what I finally wanted to believe, finally coming up with a complete picture that to me is scientifically and spiritually accurate.
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Why do theists always have to argue semantics till they fucking die? If I had meant belief I would have said it. No, I meant to say religion. I'm glad that even though you try and twist words around, you agree that mainstream religion is not really doing as good as it should. It's corrupt, greedy, and violent, which is the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure if you read my first post, because you should already know that one of my biggest problems is how mainstream religion runs today. It's good to hear that some theists actually see these flaws, most just shrug is off and say that religion can do no harm. :)
 
The title of this thread (based on what you're saying) should be "Why do so many bluelighters love religion?" Because I understand the point you are making, most of my arguments in this thread have to do with not automatically attaching belief in God to religion.

Attaching too firmly to any belief, or using any belief system to spread fear or negativity does harm, no doubt. Many people use religion this way. But many people also don't. Many people receive great joy and comfort from their religion. I don't personally need religion for that, but if people do, and don't use it to think negatively or do negative things, then why lump it all together into one negative pile that seems to make you so angry?

If you want to live in a more peaceful world, you have to start with yourself. There is no way all of us are ever going to think the same or see the Universe the same. A peaceful world requires tolerance of others with different beliefs. And a lack of tolerance for violence and war, regardless of the reasons for it. :)
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
Hehe, it really doesn't matter what you call it. But I agree with medical mecannica about why I use the word "God" vs "Everything". But it really doesn't matter, in the end.. everything is everything and it's all just as vast and magical and amazing no matter what you want to call it. :)
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does this philosophical spark in you improve your life do you think? can i ask about your mental status?

i have a theory that we self actualize once we first get a spark for something (like a hobby) then the sparks fly off in many directions and we become generalists
 
TearItDown said:
Why do theists always have to argue semantics till they fucking die? If I had meant belief I would have said it. No, I meant to say religion. I'm glad that even though you try and twist words around, you agree that mainstream religion is not really doing as good as it should. It's corrupt, greedy, and violent, which is the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure if you read my first post, because you should already know that one of my biggest problems is how mainstream religion runs today. It's good to hear that some theists actually see these flaws, most just shrug is off and say that religion can do no harm. :)
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I think theists are always seen to be arguing semantics because it is usually the athiests who try to twist words around. I am more than happy to talk about God, but I like to stay on that topic and not have it always lead to discussion of the evils of organised religion, which is a much more black and white discussion, I think. I think a overwhelming percentage of people on this site would agree that religious institutions have exploited people and been the cause of suffering.

But if someone was to say "well belief in God is the cause of a lot of suffering"
I would have to say "whoa, actually, it's institutionalised religions that have caused suffering, not belief in concepts of God."

If the atheist believes that concepts of God cannot be separated from organised religion and if the theist disagrees they are accused of arguing semantics. Really, in a more intellectual forum like this one, it is more that the theist is trying to establish what is actually being discussed, God or religion, because in my experience atheists interchange the two anytime is means they could gain some sort of 'upper hand' in the 'argument.'
 
qwe said:
does this philosophical spark in you improve your life do you think? can i ask about your mental status?

i have a theory that we self actualize once we first get a spark for something (like a hobby) then the sparks fly off in many directions and we become generalists
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My mental status? lol... Do you mean am I happy, depressed, etc.

I would say I am a happy, positive person in general. I have my struggles like anyone else, although most of my struggles in life have revolved around some health problems/issues that I have had to deal with. Overall I consider myself very blessed to have been through what I've been through for everything my life thus far has taught me. I've been able to experience more things in my short days than some do in their entire life and that plays a role in my spirituality.

If I have a philosophical spark, I guess it's always been there. I've always been the way I am about God, religion, etc. My parents never had any religion or ideas about God when I was growing up so I found the concept of spirituality on my own, as a child. I feel blessed because my mind was always allowed to be so free, I was never taught fear, I was instead taught that the way I see the Universe is my truth and that there are many different ways of seeing or describing the truth, and that is how it should be. :)

But if someone was to say "well belief in God is the cause of a lot of suffering"
I would have to say "whoa, actually, it's institutionalised religions that have caused suffering, not belief in concepts of God."
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You're my new favorite bluelighter. :) :) :)
 
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Maybe, but you're not talking to the total human population, you're talking to S&P posters, who are talking about their own personal concept of God.
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reread the posts
you understood... the opposite of my point
 
^
The impression I got was that you would prefer people to not use the term 'God' unless they are referring to a definition that fits into historical contexts of deities. You do not think it is appropriate to discuss an idea of universal consciousness under the banner of 'God,' because commonly in the general population that is not how the word is understood. (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

I was saying that you are not talking to the general population, and my impression of BL posters is that it is not rare for their concept of God to be defined as a higher/universal/collective consciousness, therefore on this site I think the use of the word God in this context is not misleading, as you suggested it might be.

I just think that if we are in a forum where we can discuss spirituality and refer to God without it instantly implying a physical being with super powers then we should be able to take advantage of that.
 
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