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[MEGA] God v.2

Just to jump in here, a common argument I hear on this forum for the existence of god is to appeal to the apparent existence of mystical, abstract concepts like: love, imagination, consciousness, memory and emotion......and at first glance it's a great argument right?
To you I would point out this, we are only at the beginning of our enlightenment and we may very well soon derive the mechanistic and physical processes that bring rise to these phenomena.

Drugs bring us closer to answers in regards to these things.......
Just think:

ecstasy and oxytocin induce love states
general anesthetics short circuit and negate consciousness, LSD heightens consciousness
"smart" drugs improve memory and electroshock therapy disrupts memories
LSD heightens imagination - some of the world's greatest artists had their imagination driven by drugs (Dali).
antidepressants and mood stabilisers can control emotions

You see all of these supposed mystical concepts react to physical chemicals in a predictable manner. Does it not follow then that these concepts are themselves rooted somewhere in the physical sciences? We just need to look harder and the answers will become clear. Religion's answers to these questions stop intellectual debate and progression of the sciences. When in reality truth is stranger than the fictional reality religion provides.
 
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(( Religion's answers to these questions stop intellectual debate and progression of the sciences. When in reality truth is stranger than the fictional reality religion provides. ))

>>Please for a science debate go to another thread-do not mock religion-for many it has deep value and meaning, it has its own reality outside of science! You are trying to fit a sqare peg in a round hole!

When studying science they get you to cure any religious beliefs, and hence become unbalanced.
Religion in not say....man made religion, but inner spiritualism, which comes from the right side of your brain. Unbalanced as in using only the left side as required in science.
 
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LivingInTheMoment said:
When studying science they get you to cure any religious beliefs, and hence become unbalanced.
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It is not unbalanced to hold no religous beliefs. In fact, I would say it is a much more balanced and rational approach to this world.
 
beamers said:
Welcome to bluelight and you'd better get used to this kind of treatment.
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I don't mind that kind of treatment, I am not overly sensitive to what strangers have to say about me or my ideas. I am quite confident in what I believe, thus I don't become personally offended when my ideas are attacked.

I just can't stand the hypocrisy of everyone whining about their beliefs being disrespected only to turn around and do worse to me. Especially since I received a warning and constant lectures from MyDoorsAreOpen, yet he has remained silent when people who agree with his viewpoints do the same thing. I just think it shows a lack of integrity on the mods part.
 
beamers said:
Just to jump in here, a common argument I hear on this forum for the existence of god is to appeal to the apparent existence of mystical, abstract concepts like: love, imagination, consciousness, memory and emotion......and at first glance it's a great argument right?
To you I would point out this, we are only at the beginning of our enlightenment and we may very well soon derive the mechanistic and physical processes that bring rise to these phenomena.

Drugs bring us closer to answers in regards to these things.......
Just think:

ecstasy and oxytocin induce love states
general anesthetics short circuit and negate consciousness, LSD heightens consciousness
"smart" drugs improve memory and electroshock therapy disrupts memories
LSD heightens imagination - some of the world's greatest artists had their imagination driven by drugs (Dali).
antidepressants and mood stabilisers can control emotions

You see all of these supposed mystical concepts react to physical chemicals in a predictable manner. Does it not follow then that these concepts are themselves rooted somewhere in the physical sciences? We just need to look harder and the answers will become clear. Religion's answers to these questions stop intellectual debate and progression of the sciences. When in reality truth is stranger than the fictional reality religion provides.
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Yep, as the saying goes, religion lives in the margins of science.
 
Done worse to you, ONLY because you do it to others first, and you are relentless at it!

You just said it>STRANGERS<unfortunately that is your problem here, you can attack strangers' and their ideas since you do and you will consider them STRANGERS-not people you come to interact and hence get to know and respect no matter what! Why come to berade strangers, if you have friends, go converse with them?
I have come to respect the people in this forum, and since i have being interacting with them, I have come to also feel certain of them as friends and respect them and do not view them as strangers as you claim us to be.

You enjoy being argumentative and adversarial-so you find pleasure in coming here to do this, but I also believe since you deny your right and philosophical side, you are an extremely lonely individual and come here to rub some sensitivity from others, and in the attempt-try to kill it in the others. One only appreciates ideas coming from the feminine side of the brain-if they can relate to it-which is of their sensitivity-if they have it and draw upon it.

Hmmm, every time you come to reintroduce your criticisms of other's ideas, some one you rely upon for support comes first for you to feel supported. beamers???

Read on top of the page>it is called:Phylosophy and Spirituality>I take it you have none to relate!
 
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LivingInTheMoment said:
Done worse to you, ONLY because you do it to others first, and you are relentless at it!
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Personally, I don't care what you call me or say about my ideas. Like I have said, I am quite confident in them. I just think whatever standard is being employed by the mods should apply to everyone, not just me. I really don't want to spend much more time talking about it though, I was just trying to point something out to the mods to improve the consistency of this board.

LivingInTheMoment said:
You just said it>STRANGERS<unfortunately that is your problem here, you can attack strangers' and their ideas since you do and you will consider them STRANGERS-not people you come to interact and hence get to know and respect no matter what! Why come to berade strangers, if you have friends, go converse with them?
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Respect is earned, not given indiscriminantly. I come to this board to discuss ideas, you can come to make friends if you want, it is a free country.

LivingInTheMoment said:
You enjoy being argumentative and adversarial-so you find pleasure in coming here to do this, but I also believe since you deny your right and philosophical side, you are an extremely lonely individual and come here to rub some sensitivity from others, and in the attempt-try to kill it in the others. One only appreciates ideas coming from the feminine side of the brain-if they can relate to it-which is of their sensitivity-if they have it and draw upon it.
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I guess you can assume whatever you want about me.

LivingInTheMoment said:
Hmmm, every time you come to reintroduce your criticisms of other's ideas, some one you rely upon for support comes first for you to feel supported. beamers???
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Lol, come on now, I don't garner near the support that you do %).

It seems like you are taking this all way too personally. It is almost as if I stole a friend from you during lunch break or something. Some people will agree with me, some with you. Just talk about the ideas and stop worrying about all of the other stuff.
 
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>I don't care what you call me or say about my ideas.I am quite confident in them.

>>So are we, and at least our ideas relate to the thread-so where is this gona go? It has turned into a tit for tat! You come to disprove our sense of spiritual attunement!
Are you trying to change us, since you are not giving up in letting us be with our philosophical and spiritual fullfillment?

>whatever standard is being employed by the mods should apply to everyone, not just me.

>>Perhaps the way you come here attacking as if nothing else besides science exists and the way you keep going about it, is the reason, and since this is a spirituality forum how do your ideas FIT in it? There is nothing gracious or noble about your way you go about it! Nor balance, since you don't believe in anything besides science, though the subject may not relate to science. There is emptiness when you can't relate to other forms of existence. You don't fit in it if you don't accept it, and this you prove over and over.


>Respect is earned, not given indiscriminantly.<<<Look in the mirror-Now you start talking! I Agree!

>I come to this board to discuss ideas, you can come to make friends<<<<Well, I and all the others here have friends in their life around them. However, friends are made everywhere where we come to interact-though in a different form.
It seems you have no other stimulation in your life! It is of no surprise, you are not here to be a friend or friendly nor make friends of a different kind-for you won't with such attitude-it is abrasive!

>I guess you can assume whatever you want about me.<<<No I don't assume, you give out the reasons for the conclusions on a continuous basis!
 
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You know Enlitx, I agree with a lot of the things you are saying, seeing as how I am not religious either. But I think there is an important thing that we have to remember (and I don't mean this specifically toward you, but to all atheists\whatever in general):

Religion and spirituality is very important to some people. Even though to me the idea of Jesus, for example, is very unbelievable, I know that to others he is very real. My grandmother is an avid Christian and although it's hard for me to identify with that, she truely 100% believes in all that stuff and its evident in every action she takes. People live their lives by the God(s)\deities\etc. that they follow- and to attempt to de-bunk someones entire lifestyle can be very upsetting to them. Even though I know that Deja and LivingInTheMoment and others on here stand confident in their beliefs, I'm sure it is still unpleasent to have a person challenging what they believe on a personal level. Yes, I understand that we are not all here just to agree with everyone, but I think adopting the open-minded viewpoint regardling religions works best for threads of this sort. Like Jamshyd said, the whole "I'm right, you're wrong" viewpoint turns these discussions into something toxic (no matter which side you are coming from).

On the other hand, I think light debates and discussions can be fun and insightful. And I agree that there has to be a two-way street about respect. I'm not saying anything about a specific individual(s) because it's not really my business and I don't want to start an argument with anyone, but I feel like some comments to Entilx have been a bit bully-ish considering he is basically standing alone on his side. On the other hand, based on my above comments I know that people can get very pissed off when they feel that someone doesn't respect their beliefs.

I don't know, I don't post much in here anymore because it's hard as an athiest to express your viewpoint and not look like an asshole. I think religion and spirtuality is very interesting from a psychological viewpoint (what makes some people religious and not others? how do different people interpret different "supernatural" events? etc.) so I like to come in here and lurk. But I just thought I'd make a post regarding this because I don't like to see fighting! :(
 
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i believe in a semiconscious divine that controls the universe. it's in all of us. it's nature. we are divine manifest.

i'm a little late in the argument, but i have to say... disrespect christian beliefs! the christian gave us a broken society.
 
Perhaps the way you come here attacking as if nothing else besides science exists
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Well prove him wrong, if it exists then it is scientific by definition, e.g. if revelations came true in all its blood and gore then christianity would cease to be a religion and it would become the science of christianity, because it was actually true. However this remains to be seen.

Especially since I received a warning and constant lectures from MyDoorsAreOpen, yet he has remained silent when people who agree with his viewpoints do the same thing. I just think it shows a lack of integrity on the mods part.
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You should go over to SLR then and check out the mysandry that is ingrained in the forum that prides itself on fairness and equality.

On the topic of "fighting", if you can't explain your beliefs etc... then you have no place expressing them in a public forum, expect to defend your beliefs. I can and do.

i believe in a semiconscious divine that controls the universe. it's in all of us. it's nature. we are divine manifest.
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That's quite a vacuous statement. You might as well just say, god is everywhere and no where at the same time.
 
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QUOTE:Beamers>>((( Well prove him wrong, if it exists then it is scientific by definition, e.g. if revelations came true in all its blood and gore then christianity would cease to be a religion and it would become the science of christianity, because it was actually true. However this remains to be seen.)))

^^
(LOL ) Smart ass!

>It can not be proven! That occurs in science, everything else is felt or experienced!


================================================================================================

>>>(( Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.
(Albert Einstein)))

=============================================================================================

>>>>I am not on organized religion, I believe in the concept of inner spirituality/Consciousness. So when someone mentions the word religion, even myself, I instantly think of consciousness/spirituality of this inner realm.

There is science on this, and it is the bridge of science and spirituality.

David Bohm's "Implicate Order", of an underlying unity behind all the various seemingly separate things we see. His views fit in with long time western esoteric views on holism, which also bridge the gap between western and eastern philosophy, mysticism and science.
The underlying unity of everything as an ordered whole.

((Explicate order: The phenomena in the universe that can be seen and measured.
Holism: The view that things can be best understood in their context - ultimately as part of the whole universe.))

Bohm proposed that our four dimensional space-time continuum model of the universe was only part of the story, and that these dimensions constitute what he called the `explicate order'. This explicate order is constantly unfolding, based on the information contained in a reality of higher dimensions, which he called the `implicate order'.
Sounds like mysticism? This is frontier physics

Quantum Physics

The wholeness of Bohm's work

cybernetics

Heisenberg uncertainty principle

Supersymmetry suggests more dimensions than we are aware

etc., etc., etc.,
 
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enlitx said:
I just can't stand the hypocrisy of everyone whining about their beliefs being disrespected only to turn around and do worse to me. Especially since I received a warning and constant lectures from MyDoorsAreOpen, yet he has remained silent when people who agree with his viewpoints do the same thing. I just think it shows a lack of integrity on the mods part.
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Cry me a river. No one else here is treating you with anywhere near as much disrespect as you constantly have shown others. If you don't like how the majority here discuss things, then you know where the door is.

Your crusade is as pathetic as that idiot Richard Dawkins'. Sure he's brilliant in his field and i have enjoyed his books on evolution, but as soon as he overstepped his bounds and started talking about religion, he has really displayed his complete lack of understanding on the matter.

Stick to what you know. Neither of you have any idea on the matter being discussed in this thread. The schizophrenic analogy you spurt doesn't fly as that is a very different situation.

beamers said:
Well prove him wrong, if it exists then it is scientific by definition
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This statement is absurd or your definitions are wrong/incomplete.

On the topic of "fighting", if you can't explain your beliefs etc... then you have no place expressing them in a public forum, expect to defend your beliefs. I can and do.
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Not all things are explainable.


You might as well just say, god is everywhere and no where at the same time.
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Indeed. This statement can make more sense than you can realise right now with those blinkers on.
 
:)

How interesting this debate continues, as it used to be who was better; Jesus or Zeus. or Horus vs. Jupiter?

A full evolution of debate, to be or not to be?

It is difficult for many to understand this "blind faith" in something that has hurt many, destroy lots, and abused power. Also finding it difficult to differentiate against those that say they are doing the good work but doing the bad work too and the real truth of the infinite oneness of everything.

Many are hypocrites, amazing ones. Like the good ol' christian girl sitting at bible study with your beautiful gold cross around her neck complaining about nonchristians and their heathenism---going to a big old party that night getting wasted and taking off her shirt.

Really, faith, god, oneness, spirit, infinity-- it doesn't really matter what you call it, or whether it has even a name. Realizing there is something, even just amazing energy, is divine in its practical nature of keeping the natural order in place is faith.

We have faith in so many systems, which are not readily tangible. Yet we do not question that they exists, or function on forever.

There is always doubt, misunderstanding, and abuse of any system or institution. However, what matters is what is inside of you that upholds your ideal and philosophy. There is a greatness in all of us, inspired by some essence that we are all tied into. Even our genetics --so complex, so many life systems are beyond even our comprehension... It is easy to see there is something so profound and amazing that we will only understand in another time.

:) :) :)
 
Impacto Profundo said:
Cry me a river. No one else here is treating you with anywhere near as much disrespect as you constantly have shown others. If you don't like how the majority here discuss things, then you know where the door is.

Your crusade is as pathetic as that idiot Richard Dawkins'. Sure he's brilliant in his field and i have enjoyed his books on evolution, but as soon as he overstepped his bounds and started talking about religion, he has really displayed his complete lack of understanding on the matter.

Stick to what you know. Neither of you have any idea on the matter being discussed in this thread. The schizophrenic analogy you spurt doesn't fly as that is a very different situation.



This statement is absurd or your definitions are wrong/incomplete.



Not all things are explainable.




Indeed. This statement can make more sense than you can realise right now with those blinkers on.
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^^^Hey perfectly said again! I missed that last one all together it flew away from my attention-INDEED! I could not have said it any better!!
 
Very good post, Thai Dye. Your kind of atheist is quite welcome here.

Enlitx, I'm willing to request that the warning be removed, if you're willing to follow our rules, and respect beliefs (and the holders of those beliefs) other than your own. Deal?

beamers said:
That's quite a vacuous statement. You might as well just say, god is everywhere and no where at the same time.
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Indeed I do say this :) To me, that's the paradox of the One -- it both 'is' and 'is not' at the same time.

Folks, the lesson I hope we all learn from this thread is this: Each of Bluelight's social forums is a village. They're not the mean streets of a big bad city, where only the [mentally? verbally?] toughest survive. Like a village or other small community, there is a preexisting dynamic, cultivated over long periods of time to the tastes and needs of preexisting contributors. No matter what their rationale is or how well-intentioned it is, no one should expect to waltz in here and upset this dynamic and upset people's applecarts, and hope to receive a positive and welcoming response. It just doesn't work that way.
 
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