mdma effects based on ROA... moved from ED

[Folley]

folley, how do you account for the fact that two different users can take exactly the same amount of exactly the same mdma using exactly the same route of administration and have a completely, qualitatively different experience?

alasdair

I'm basing this off of the same exact people. People VERY experienced with MDMA, who have snorted and dropped MDMA many times.

In certain cases, even with the same batch.

 

[alasdairm]

please answer the question. thanks.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

If you would like to ask a valid question, I would love too. But your's is flawed from the beginning.


If two people take the same MDMA, they same way, they are going to have similar experiences, its not a "completely, qualitatively different experience", although parts of the high can contradict each other. One person could be floored, while the other is up jumping around and dancing.

But the brain isn't just going to randomly release chemicals that would change the high completely. When used through another RoA that would activate or inhibit the Vagus and other systems though, the high would consistently be more "speedy" or more "loved up".

That goes beyond the subjective differences that you are talking about, and is an actual change in how the brain processes the drug.

 

[sekio]

I don't think this thread can proceed in a positive direction any more, closing it unless someone can drum up some actual papers or data because it's just going to turn to argument city.

ps set and setting

 

[sekio]

Re-opened per popular demand, I will move this to ED if it remains speculation

 

[psychosnot]

MDA in the 70`s to early 80`s ROA

Hello all, this is my first post!
This post is referring to the opinions on the ROA of the MDXX`s. The fact that there are digestive juices in the stomach but not the nose or colon, the MDMA gets absorbed differently and prolly more efficiently in the stomach.
Anyway, 30 yrs ago, I used to do MDA. It never came in pill form, always by weight, so it was easier to chose a ROA. We always did the trifecta, which was oral, anal, and nasal. When ever you nasal it, you get the drip that goes down into the stomach, but you had to do a fairly nice line. As far as the anal delivey, it was done in a gelatin capsule, which was poked with holes for faster absorbsion. So you would get all 3 ways anyway. We had it down! I Remember when doing the anal delivery the ~second brain~ was totally apparrent. I looked down and my legs were on there own. One thing that the nasal delivery does for you is it increases brain body movement. One would get amazing mind over body control. I was always the best dancer LOL. You can make you never thought you could do. Then, if you wanted to stay on the merry-go-round just nasal some more.
BTW, a late 70`s code name for MDA was `mary don`t ask`. Someone would ask you what did you indulge in and you answer back...Oh `mary don`t ask` LOL.

Stay smart all!

 

[pofacedhoe]

to add to the already subjective thread, mephedrone is considerabley more loved up and "ecstacy like" when taken orally as opposed to snorted where it feels a lot more like speed and cocaine, the same is true of methylone.

also of note when drinking strong coca tea its is more "like mdma", way more calm and loved up.

i think its just the speed at which the drugs are hitting your system and that serotonin effects from drugs take longer to build up than doapminergic ones and if serotonin is impacted in a greater way before the dopamine rush hits then the high subjectively has more of a magical/loved up/relaxed tranquil quality.

snorting drugs does hit faster even if the amount of drug ingested is less. and speed of onset hugely affects the addictive nature of a drug and how the high is qualitatively. simple. i dont think its related to the vagus nerve.

it has been noted by negrogesic (please chime in) that a serotonin effect is necessary for a great stimulant euphoria i.e cocaine as opposed to methylphenidate

 

[alasdairm]

When used through another RoA that would activate or inhibit the Vagus and other systems though, the high would consistently be more "speedy" or more "loved up".

consistently? can you quantify this for me with some substantiation (e.g. some data, some guidance on how you measured this, etc.)

further, most users - i think even you would agree - would say that a "speedy" high and a "loved up" high are totally different highs. so which is it?

my question isn't invalid just because you don't like it or can't answer it .

if, as you are claiming, roa has an objective effect on the nature of the experience (i.e. a qualitative effect as opposed to a quantitative effect such as intensity or duration), then how does your theory factor in two different users taking exactly the same amount of exactly the same mdma using exactly the same route of administration and having completely different experience?

thanks.

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

If two people take the same MDMA, they same way, they are going to have similar experiences...

this is one of the sillier things you've ever said. i can tell you from first hand experience that you are incorrect.

how many posts are there across different forums on bluelight along the lines of "my mates and i went out. we all dropped the same stuff. they had a great time and i had a bad time"? hundreds. maybe more.

Very weird first mdma(molly) experience
MDMA twice, no real effect
Has anyone else experienced this on Molly?
Close rolling / Empathy loss
[Mega] The "Why won't MDMA work for me?" thread

i didn't have to look very hard to find these examples of people taking the same substance and not having similar experiences at all. how does your theory account for this? are they outliers?

alasdair

 

[Kenaz]

Well OK then, dick.


Read this thread again. LOSS of magic, is due to chronic serotonin and other chemicals release, which causes damage to the 5HT receptors.


This happens after repeated use of MDMA, and makes absolutely no difference to this thread. I'm not taking about a LOSS of magic. I'm taking about snorted MDMA to have LESS magic than other RoAs.

This would be true for someone who has NEVER done MDMA, or someone who rolls every week. I don't know where the fuck you're getting this repeated use thing from, this would be the same with one dose, or with hundreds.

The problem here is that you're posting to Advanced Drug Discussion and, presumably, seeking a scientific explanation for why oral and intranasal MDMA feel qualitatively different.

To get that answer you have to come up with some measurable way of describing those differences. And "more loved up" or "more magic" are hopelessly subjective. How do I know that we're talking about the same thing when we say "loved up?" Do you mean greater feelings of empathy? Do you mean a warm body glow? Do you mean a feeling of euphoria and inner peace? Do you mean some combination of these effects? Until you give us a clear definition of what you are talking about, we can hardly propose a means of testing it - or even look at available literature to figure out answers to what might be going on.

If you want to say "more speedy," there are a number of ways to check that. Does a person who snorts a comparable dose of MDMA (adjusted for intranasal v. oral bioavailability) have a higher pulse rate, more profuse sweating, and various other signs of a norepinephrine/dopamine release than a person who takes their roll orally? Do they get less or more of the side effects commonly associated with serotonin release? Compare and contrast those and you might be able to get a better idea of the pharmacological action of nasal MDMA v other ROAs. It's easy to test heart rate and blood pressure: so far as I know, there's no "loved-up-ometer" which can compare and contrast the subjective feeling of various rolls.

 

[Kenaz]

this is one of the sillier things you've ever said. i can tell you from first hand experience that you are incorrect.

how many posts are there across different forums on bluelight along the lines of "my mates and i went out. we all dropped the same stuff. they had a great time and i had a bad time"? hundreds. maybe more.

Very weird first mdma(molly) experience
MDMA twice, no real effect
Has anyone else experienced this on Molly?
Close rolling / Empathy loss
[Mega] The "Why won't MDMA work for me?" thread

i didn't have to look very hard to find these examples of people taking the same substance and not having similar experiences at all. how does your theory account for this? are they outliers?

alasdair

In my experience, MDMA is very dependent on set and setting. Two people taking an identical dose of MDMA under different conditions might have very different experiences.

Honestly, I wonder how much of the "speedy v. loved up" experience of intranasal MDMA, mephedrone, methylone etc. has to do with the agonizing pain incurred by blowing them up your tooter. It's the kind of pain that might well induce a release of adrenaline and thereby color the experience... especially since intranasal ROA tends to come on a lot faster than oral. That's just idle speculation, but I think it's more plausible than the "vagus nerve" theory.

 

[alasdairm]

In my experience, MDMA is very dependent on set and setting. Two people taking an identical dose of MDMA under different conditions might have very different experiences.

i tend to agree.

Honestly, I wonder how much of the "speedy v. loved up" experience of intranasal MDMA, mephedrone, methylone etc. has to do with the agonizing pain incurred by blowing them up your tooter. It's the kind of pain that might well induce a release of adrenaline and thereby color the experience... especially since intranasal ROA tends to come on a lot faster than oral.

in my discussions with drugs users over a long period, i've found that many think of quantitative criteria (faster, stronger, longer) as qualitative criteria (i.e. those factors make for a 'better' experience). it's certainly a factor in the discussion.

That's just idle speculation

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Honestly, I wonder how much of the "speedy v. loved up" experience of intranasal MDMA, mephedrone, methylone etc. has to do with the agonizing pain incurred by blowing them up your tooter. It's the kind of pain that might well induce a release of adrenaline and thereby color the experience... especially since intranasal ROA tends to come on a lot faster than oral. That's just idle speculation, but I think it's more plausible than the "vagus nerve" theory.

But my friend, that has EVERYTHING to do with the Vagus theory! This is the kind of connection I am talking about... it could be that PAIN activating the Olfactory and inhibiting the parasympathetic response in the Vagus system, causing a SPIKE in blood pressure and release of adrenaline.


That ties in to your last post, about the "magic" all together. Rise is heart rate is directly related to a lowering of Norepinephrine levels. People who snort MDMA often report the "pounding heart" sensation. Much more so than people who bomb pure stuff at least. So people who snort MDMA would have less NE release, and if you'll read FBC's long ass post, you will probably understand how that ties into the magic. If not, I'm sure I can Google something up.


Instead of NE being released when you snort it, I'm pretty sure adrenaline is released instead. That would be a major cause in why its more "speedy"

The problem here is that you're posting to Advanced Drug Discussion and, presumably, seeking a scientific explanation for why oral and intranasal MDMA feel qualitatively different.

And see, that is just not true at all!

I've provided all the info necessary, all I want is for you smart people to look over this and tell me where I'm right, and where I'm wrong

 

[alasdairm]

^ i'd have more respect for you if you were at least intellectually honest about your motives here.

you only want people to tell you that you're right. when people challenge your speculation and tell you you're wrong, you post this kind of response: "Well OK then, dick.". let's call a spade a spade at very least?

i can tell you from first hand experience that you are incorrect.

how many posts are there across different forums on bluelight along the lines of "my mates and i went out. we all dropped the same stuff. they had a great time and i had a bad time"? hundreds. maybe more.

Very weird first mdma(molly) experience
MDMA twice, no real effect
Has anyone else experienced this on Molly?
Close rolling / Empathy loss
[Mega] The "Why won't MDMA work for me?" thread

i didn't have to look very hard to find these examples of people taking the same substance and not having similar experiences at all. how does your theory account for this? are they outliers?

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Set and Setting.

Setting is a persons mentality, that was obviously different in those threads. Its the same reason people have bad trips on good LSD.

I called that guy a dick, because basically he assumed the magic not being there from snorting, was just due to 5HT downregulation, and basically told me to learn how to search before I post a thread.

I did that. Plenty.



If you can show me where I'm wrong, I would love to hear it, it will only help me strengthen the rest of my theory. But please, stop with this petty shit dude. I don't want it here.








I'm sorry everyone, I just PM'd alasdair and hopefully we can just drop this little squabble and continue the thread with everyone contributing positively...
A big thanks to Sekio for reopening this though

 

[alasdairm]

Set and Setting.

Setting is a persons mentality...

good lord, you could not be any more wrong. setting is the, well hell, it's the setting in which the experience takes place. set is the mindset which is the mental state somebody bring to their experience. sigh.

that glaring error on your part aside, if you agree with me that set and setting have an effect on the qualitative experience when people use the same drug, using the same roa, how does that factor into your theory? those threads demonstrate that a user can take mdma orally - which you claim consistently provides a more 'loved up' experience- and have an experience which is far from 'loved up'. how do you account for that?

I called that guy a dick...

maybe you should follow this guy's advice - he's the other folley:

Flaming and personal issues are to be left at the door however.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

good lord, you could not be any more wrong. setting is the, well hell, it's the setting in which the experience takes place. set is the mindset which is the mental state somebody bring to their experience. sigh.

that glaring error on your part aside, if you agree with me that set and setting have an effect on the qualitative experience when people use the same drug, using the same roa, how does that factor into your theory? those threads demonstrate that a user can take mdma orally - which you claim consistently provides a more 'loved up' experience- and have an experience which is far from 'loved up'. how do you account for that?
maybe you should follow this guy's advice - he's the other folley:



alasdair

Now, read this again. How is any of the above not petty, or of little importance to the subject?



Two users could snort MDMA, their brains will have about the same reaction to the drug as one another. One person could take this worse than the other though, and have an "intense" or even dysphoric trip. Again, that has little to do with how the chemicals in the brain react to the drug, but how the person is reacting those changes.


This is simple stuff....

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Now, read this again. How is any of the above not petty, or of little importance to the subject?

Two users could snort MDMA, their brains will have about the same reaction to the drug as one another. One person could take this worse than the other though, and have an "intense" or even dysphoric trip. Again, that has little to do with how the chemicals in the brain react to the drug, but how the person is reacting those changes.

This is simple stuff....

Ok, two people take whatever recreational drug they please, in this case MDMA, at the same time in the same place. They go to the same club, and when one goes to the bathroom the other goes outside for some air and sees a car accident. BAM drug amplified dysphoria. Extreme example? Yeah, but you get my point. Mindset could easily change what the subjective experience is

Snorting, less "magical" because less drug is absorbed and perhaps less first pass metabolism. Oral and rectal have much higher bioavailability than nasal, even factoring in what you get past first pass metabolism.

 

[Folley]

I wouldn't base all of this of one or two people saying this happened ONE time.


This has happened many times, for many people, with tested MDMA, in reasonably the same set and setting: IE, in a club, or for some like myself, at home where the factors are even more controlled.


It even happens during the same roll!!!!!
Many people agree that there is a difference in the high, but don't agree that its actually a worse high. That's subjectivity right there. They still agree that its "speedier" though, and they say that dropping and snorting MDMA gives them the best results.





Give me some credit at least, I'm in Ecstasy Discussion and on Pillreports every single day. I have seen many, MANY, trends among ecstasy users, and this has been agreed on by MANY. Search some threads in ED about snorting MDMA, see what comes up.

Every thread has about 10 people telling them not to waste their MDMA by snorting it.

 

[sekio]

Closed again because as predicted it turned into argument city!

We have established though that -
1. Snorting MDMA is less bioavailiable and hits faster. (i.e. it's a different experience(!))
2. Set and setting is important.
3. Different people react differently to drugs.