• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

mdma effects based on ROA... moved from ED

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Its been a while since I've posted...
Been extremely busy with work/life.

But this shouldn't suggest that I am 'recovered' yet.
I'm still waiting for this nightmare of emptiness to end, and the cycles are SOOOO long now.
Some days I am surprised that I'm able to function at the level I do.

I no longer feel the urge to research and spew technical terms, which is actually a disappointment to me.
I wonder if I will ever be as analytical and sharp as I once was...
Perhaps I can try.

Regardless, I will weigh in on this thread for my buddy Folley.
It seems your thread has been reduced to a discussion about the vagus nerve alone, which is clearly not your original intent.
Perhaps I can draw that portion to a close.

The vagus nerve exits the brain from the medulla, and innervates several bodily organs - notably cardiac tissues, the digestive tract, and of course the cervix in women. Must be nice...

Rather than analyzing its numerous effects in the body, you could direct your attention to one particular region of the brain.
The PVN, or paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus.

As I have said many times, the hypothalamus is the site of both MDMA's magical effects and its neurotoxicity.
The hypothalamus is the relay station for sensory information from the body - connected to the higher brain (cortex).
The serotonin nerves that extend from the brainstem into the frontal lobes are the subject of great study - and the source of the world's most profitable psychiatric medications (SSRIs).

The PVN of the hypothalamus sends a dense set of nerve terminals into the dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus.
This is a cranial nerve branch which crawls through the body and serves parasympathetic functions in the intestines, lungs, adbodmen.

To restate this in English:
The relay station for sensory information in the higher brain (HYP) directly influences a large branch of the vagus nerve that innervates a large cranial/facial nerve and several organs throughout the body.

To those who are 'rolling face' - the cranial vagus nerve is absolutely 'involved'.
Is it the 'cause'?

In a sense, yes - because without this particular nerve the sensations could not be achieved.
It is the most direct cause and severing this nerve would likely eliminate many of the bodily effects of MDMA.

In another sense, the hypothalamus is the true cause - because it is the governor of this response.
Eliminate the PVN, and the cranial vagus nerve would receive nothing - regardless of the quantity of MDMA taken.
It would also eliminate MANY of the critical effects of MDMA - especially the release of oxytocin, vassopressin, and prolactin from the pituitary!

The pituitary and adrenal glands compose the 'endocrine system' and could certainly be argued as the true 'cause' of MDMA effects - and all other recreational drugs. Because these glands pump hormones into the bloodstream that have drastic effects on different pathways in the brain. Especially the dopaminergic system in the frontal lobes and the nucleus acumbens.

At the end of the day, NONE of these particular factors emerges as a sole 'cause'.
The pathways in the frontal lobes and limbic system must be functional for the endocrine system to effect them.
The pituitary and adrenal glands must be functional for these pathways to be affected.
So the relationship is circular.

This is the 'HPA axis' of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis.
The connection between the body, mind, and thoughts.

And of course the HPA is controlled by the hypothalamus, the relay station for frontal lobe serotonin.
Is the HYP then the real commander of the entire cycle?
Of the brain's hormonal system?

If you had to pick a single location as the 'cause', this would be it.
At least in the brain...

The hypothalamus controls the endocrine response to MDMA - extreme release of cortisol, followed by the 'magical' effects of oxytocin and prolactin. Because serotonin inhibits dopamine, and prolactin and dopamine never occur together naturally for more then a few moments... MDMA breaks a primary rule of brain hormone balance.
As serotonin begins declining (with cortisol) about 90 minutes after dosing, dopamine is allowed to SURGE in the frontal lobes and limbic pleasure center (nucleus acumbens). Since the hypothalamus directs the pituitary to release prolactin at the same time that dopamine is spiking, a sensation that could be described as an extended orgasm occurs.
Isn't that what sex feels like right after the peak? Like you are cumming the entire time!

Back on track.
The hypothalamus is the root cause, in the brain, of all MDMA's effects.
This includes adrenal, pituitary, dopamine, and vagal responses.

Interesting, since serotonin does not originate in the hypothalamus...
Even in the brain, the root of all serotonin nerves is the Raphe Nucleus in the brainstem.
It is an ancient structure and communicates directly with the Super Chiasmatic Nucleus, which receives information from the eyes. Sunlight exposure literally increases serotonin activity in the brain.

But the real effects of MDMA point to the hypothalamus - which sits in front of the brainstem and behind the frontal lobes.
It is truly one of the most powerful brain regions, despite its small size.
If the 'soul' had a location - it would be the hypothalamus.
In my humble opinion.

But wait!
Serotonin does NOT originate in the brainstem either!

The 'serum' that 'tones' the intestines is just that - a neurotransmitter that evolved in the intestinal tract first.
About 90% of ALL serotonin and serotonin receptors are located in the intestines.
They serve to contract the vast array of smooth muscles surrounding the GI.
Serotonin also contracts other smooth muscles throughout the body, including the uterus in women (who experience a drop in brain serotonin during PMS).

But NO smooth muscle in the body approaches the size of the intestines, which is really a set of organs.
They are gifted with more nerves and blood vessels than any other 'organ' in the body.
And they indeed have their OWN NERVOUS SYSTEM - giving rise to the term 'second brain'.

Gastroenterologists will tell you that the intestines are far more complicated and far more IMPORTANT to overall health (esp. emotional) than most people could imagine.
Let me go back to the vagus nerve for a moment...

It was most fascinating during the first YEAR of recovery from MDMA neurotoxicity - I felt CONSTANT sensations crawling around my face and scalp! At times it felt like a tickle, other times like mini seizures localized in very small muscles. Some days I didn't mind it, but others it drove me absolutely CRAZY. It would go on for up to 12 hours a day, for WEEKS in a row. The stimulation of this cranial nerve was directly related to the dopamine imbalance that I know was happening.
One end of the spectrum is boredom, but the other end is true suicidal/homicidal desperation.
It is no surprise to me that some people on SSRIs go absolutely insane and murder people or kill themselves - Columbine HS, Virginia Tech, Fort Hood (to name a few).

It took 13 months for the worst 'head-pressure' and cranial nerve stimulation to subside.
But even now at nearly 18 months, I still get it from time to time.
Although I have become a zen master at ignoring it.

The hypothalamus is hyper-innervated during 'recovery' from MDMA neurotoxicity.
And since serotonin in the frontal lobes has powerful effects upon dopamine, this is the likely cause of psychological suffering among certain MDMA users. And plenty of them describe sensations such as 'my face is being pulled on'.
Doctors give them a label without even the most basic understanding of the intestine-hypothalamus-cranial connection that I have laid out here.

Indeed, ALL of my cranial stimulation via the vagus nerve was DIRECTLY linked to digestion.
Every. Single. Time.

That's right - every minute of every hour, from the first minutes of serotonin syndrome when I thought my stomach was going to RUPTURE and destroy my liver...to the endless months that followed...the sensations felt on my face and scalp occurred during movement in the intestines (however subtle).

And 'subtle' is the key word, aside from the first few weeks.
I used to think that my intestines only moved at certain times, that digestion occurred at specific moments.
You would have the release of digestive enzymes, the breakdown and absorption of food, and then a period of movement.
Then it would sit still until the next cycle. Right?

WRONG.

What I have learned; what I could never have known without this experience....is that the intestines are CONSTANTLY in motion. Nearly every moment of the day. Every day for the entirety of your life, something is dragging across the villi in your intestines - raking against the countless nerves in your 'second brain'.

This is why MDMA has powerful effects regardless of the ROA used.
Once the molecule is in the bloodstream, the constant activity in the intestines below transform its effects in the brain!

Moments of less movement surely occur, especially if food intake is reduced.
Indeed, the first month of my experience made eating IMPOSSIBLE and I lost about 35 pounds in three weeks.
The first week was a great relief - I felt normal because my intestines were not required to function.
My neurological problems, including vagal cranial stimulation were completely shut off through starvation.
If anything, my cognitive function was vastly increased.

I didn't mind the starvation during the first week.
And I was certain my problem was some type of injury to my intestines and had nothing to do with the brain.
Check out my first and only thread!

But during week two and three, I slowly began to realize the horrible truth: I had damaged the vast connection between the brain and gut, between '2 worlds'.
'Brain damage' has never been an adequate description of this experience.
More like 'soul destruction'.

What is the soul, if not the connection between the body and mind?
And if this is true, then isn't the 'soul' really located in the 'serum' that 'tones' the intestines?
Isn't this the real reason that MDMA has become the world's most popular and 'magical' drug experience?

Those first few weeks saw me crying over bowls of apple sauce and liquid rice water.
Think about that.

I was terrified of eating, yet desperate to do so.
It is the strangest thing that happens to a starving person - at first the body adjusts.
The second week of starvation is actually easier than the first.
But during week 3 you begin to change, and beyond this you start to break down mentally.

I was mourning my own death.
I literally awoke to my own funeral every single day for the first three months!
I cannot express the truth of this statement in words - it must be experienced to be understood.
I have never felt as empty and terrified in my life, nor could I ever again.

Yet I was still intelligent despite my desperation.
The suffering seemed to be primarily emotional.
Although certain aspects of cognition, especially those tied to patience and self-regulation were harmed, much of my cognitive power was enhanced by my suffering.

Now, as the worst of the suffering is long behind me, the cognitive changes have set in.
They did not even begin until 13 months had passed!
All the vagal sensations, altered intestinal function, and emotional turmoil did not spell a real change in my personality.
Not until they started to go away.

The last four months have truly changed who I am.
And although I still resemble my former self, I am forced to conclude that the old me may never rise again.
To the outside world I am quite similar - both to those who know me in real life and those reading this post.
But on the inside, I am not ME anymore.

There really was a death.
A loss of self.

I had the emotional realization very early on that this was going to happen, yet I didn't really understand it.
I wanted to and thought I could.
I thought that figuring out enough research could somehow guide me to a more meaningful recovery.

Looking back I realize that although I learned a lot and have helped others, there was little that could be done to alter the course of recovery. No en-devour more greatly impacted my recovery than physical exercise, healthy diet, and especially ANGER.

In fact the expression of anxiety and rage would make incredible neurological changes, which I would feel for WEEKS afterwards. Each time I had an outburst I felt dizzy yet relieved.
The next day I felt stupid, like my cognitive powers had been taken down several notches.
But in the weeks that followed I would feel some of them return, along with a restoration of bodily sensation.

I would get warm tingly sensations on my arms, legs, thighs.
Which were VERY welcome as I had felt dead, cold, and empty since day one.
So there was a trade off - as my mind slowly crumbled, my body-mind connection improved.

What is most incredible of all is that this cycle has continued endlessly, day after day - week after week - month after month! In the beginning the cycles were SO short, maybe 3 days of intense suffering followed by 1 or 2 days of absolute relief. Then it became 5 days to 1. Then 2 weeks to 1.

The suffering tapered down with each passing month, but the cognitive changes kept piling up.
Although many of them would dissolve or disappear nearly completely, there was always a remainder...a residue of change.
And it took over a year for the remainders to add up to something substantial.

The most fascinating component is my ability to sit at this keyboard and communicate this to you right now.
The ongoing cycle of change has been so vast so relentless that I am shocked to even resemble my former self! Based on what I experienced I should be a drooling retard right now!

But I'm not.
And on my occasional good days, I still feel like the old me...if only for a few hours.
But then I eat again.

The entire process, my BL friends, is controlled by the intestines.
The 'brain damage' of MDMA is the intestines rewiring the brain.
And the connection between these 2 worlds literally defines your emotional self.

The technical explanation would involve the terms HPA axis and frontal lobe dopamine transmission.
But they simply fail to describe the true nature of what is happening.
Just as the endless articles on MDMA available on the internet fail to describe what the drug is doing.

When you take MDMA, you are 'damaging' or 're-wiring' the highest regions of your brain (PFC) to the intestines.
When this occurs your HPA releases an impossible mixture of hormones and you are allowed to experience, to glimpse the true magic of the soul. The 'brain-gut' connection.

MDMA is defined as a 'potent neurotoxin' by many medical journals.
It has been firmly established that in primate brains, serotonin nerves will regenerate in the frontal lobes but will not survive. They collapse and hyper-innervate the hypothalamus.
At 18 months 'recovery' the hypothalamus was observed to have TWICE the serotonin axonal density vs. controls.

Why this happens is not understood.
Why can't the frontal lobes allow the new axons to survive?
Why does serotonin so strongly impact dopamine in the higher brain? And the HPA function for the entire brain?
Why does the hypothalamus fall victim to MDMA most toxic effects?
And most importantly, how does the brain manage at least a partial recovery of frontal lobe serotonin despite the obvious loss?

After seven years it is rather clear that the frontal and prefrontal regions did not regain anything CLOSE to their original density of serotonin. So many young MDMA users criticize Riccaurte's efforts without respecting the true data that was established through his very expensive and enduring efforts.

The intestines will never attach themselves to the higher brain in the same way for me.
And the HPA will never regain its original function as a result - which has a profound impact on the experience of daily life.
And upon one's identity, one's ego.

But they will not stop trying, either.
The "2 worlds" will keep dancing this horrible dance until some ultimate conclusion is reached.
And one day a new person shall emerge.

Isn't each MDMA experience like a 'tiny death' followed by a resurrection?

I will repeat my warning to any new MDMA user that is willing to listen:
"Do NOT re-dose."

Re-dosing is used in ALL rodent and primate research that is intended to investigate the effects of neurotoxicity.
Multiple doses, especially given on consecutive days, ensures permanent changes to the brain's most dense neurotransmitter system.

And the greatest cognitive changes wrought by MDMA use are not apparent for many months of 'recovery'.
Only very long-term abstinence will truly reveal what you have done to your highest evolved brain pathways.
To your visceral self.

So roll carefully.
Respect the drug - take reasonable doses.
And space them generously.

And avoid smoking pot daily - because heavy cannabis users have repeatedly been shown to suffer more than other MDMA users. This was certainly the case for me.
I strongly doubt that I would have suffered 'serotonin syndrome' without a decade of smoking weed first.
My MDMA use was laughable and brief compared to the stories seen on BL.
No risk factor more strongly influenced my eventual 'brain damage' or 'soul destruction' than cannabis.
I know this to be true and wish that I could express effectively to the millions of younger MDMA users across the world.

The 'serum' that 'tones' the smooth muscle of the intestines is linked to a wide variety of digestive, psychiatric, and neurological disorders. Including:

Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Crohn's Disease
ulcers and ulcerative colitis
gastroparesis (see BL member Altered Perception)
anorexia/bulemia
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder
Bi-polar Disorder I and II
Depression (esp. severe)
Psychotic Disorders, such as schizophrenia
Migraines and severe migraines known as 'cluster headaches'
Strokes

This is a small list.
And 'linked' is not adequate, as serotonin (or a receptor type) is implicated as a primary cause in many of these illnesses.
What is fascinating to learn is that many of the digestive disorders lead to profound and intense emotional suffering that mimics the depressive and psychotic disorders. And many depressed or psychotic patients will describe altered intestinal motility and strange sensations in their gut.

In some cases, low-dose serotonin 2a agonism through mushrooms or LSD has been shown to improve the symptoms and impact the well-being of some of the patients. This is not intended to encourage drug use in any way, but rather to firmly establish a link between serotonin receptors in the brain and each of these disorders.

And the brain only houses ten percent of the body's serotonin supply!
Yet it is the most dense and intricate of all neurotransmitter systems.
It strongly influences small blood vessels and likely plays a critical role in the even distribution of blood around the brain.
Without even blood perfusion, both the effects of drugs and pituitary hormones (HPA) cannot reach all necessary brain pathways.

The brain evolved around the intestines, so the 'second' brain is really the one in your head.
Taking serotonergic drugs, be they SSRIs anti-depressants, psylosibin, Lysergic acid diethylamide, peyote, San Pedro, mescaline (closest natural molecule to MDMA), and of course methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine...
All of these take advantage of the circuitry that evolved between the intestines and brain.

So respect them greatly.
Or risk joining the vast array of people suffering from serotonin related illnesses.
Especially if you are a fan of the last one of the list, and the most neurotoxic of them all.

I hope this helps, Folley.
Until next time...

FBC
 
That's a difficult act to follow FBC, in the earlier thread on this topic there was a link to a short article in Scientific American
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gut-second-brain
The comments are worth reading too.
I am fairly sure that it's possible for persons with male embodiments to take advantage of the sensitivity of the vagus after taking mdma and not just the possessors of a uterus.
It's well known among fisting adepts that mdma use allows fistees to derive extraordinary erotic pleasure from being fisted.
 
and I thought my post was long lol! Thanks for weighing in FBC, I knew you would know more about the connections of brain to gut, I first got the idea from you



In contrast to baroreflex vagal bradycardia, the vagus-induced bradycardia was not affected by hypoxic gas inhalation. It is concluded that baroreflex vagal bradycardia is inhibited by hypoxia and the inhibition is largely mediated by its direct central action.

The baroreflex has many neurons in the Sinuses among other places. When stimulated, it inhibits Vagal Bradycardia, which would keep the heart from slowing down.

When the blood pressure is low, baroreceptor firing is lowered; this reduces the inhibitory effect on the sympathetic outflow and consequently an increased amount of norepinephrine is released to receptors, causing blood vessels to constrict thus increasing blood pressure.

and when the heart slows down, Norepinephrine is released...



SAY WHAT?




The sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system have opposing effects on blood pressure. Sympathetic activation leads to an elevation of heart rate, and arterial vasoconstriction, which tends to increase blood pressure. Conversely, parasympathetic activation leads to decreased cardiac output via decrease in heart rate, resulting in a tendency to lower blood pressure.
By coupling sympathetic inhibition and parasympathetic activation, the baroreflex maximizes blood pressure reduction. Sympathetic inhibition leads to a drop in peripheral resistance, while parasympathetic activation leads to a depressed heart rate (reflex bradycardia) and contractility. The combined effects will dramatically decrease blood pressure.
In a similar manner, sympathetic activation with parasympathetic inhibition allows the baroreflex to elevate blood pressure.

All RoAs would activate the SNS but it would seem that snorting would inhibit the PSNS which would cause a raise a raise in blood pressure, which would lead to less Norepinephrine being release, which would directly lead to the experience having less "magic" as defined for me by my pal FBC

Remember that the PSNS controls
sexual arousal, salivation, lacrimation (tears), urination, digestion, and defecation
and that the SNS is directly related to contraction of smooth muscles in the gut, pupil dilation, and "urinary output" as they call it. All effects of MDMA





Some one please tell me I'm wrong here... but that means snorting is less magical....
 
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and I thought my post was long lol! Thanks for weighing in FBC, I knew you would know more about the connections of brain to gut, I first got the idea from you





The baroreflex has many neurons in the Sinuses among other places. When stimulated, it inhibits Vagal Bradycardia, which would keep the heart from slowing down.



and when the heart slows down, Norepinephrine is released...



SAY WHAT?






All RoAs would activate the SNS but it would seem that snorting would inhibit the PSNS which would cause a raise a raise in blood pressure, which would lead to less Norepinephrine being release, which would directly lead to the experience having less "magic" as defined for me by my pal FBC

Remember that the PSNS controls

and that the SNS is directly related to contraction of smooth muscles in the gut, pupil dilation, and "urinary output" as they call it. All effects of MDMA





Some one please tell me I'm wrong here... but that means snorting is less magical....

wow folley, i gotta say this is a pretty interesting hypothesis you came up with... i will agree with you that (at least from personal experience) i do not experience the "magic" as much from intranasal administration of MDMA.. however i am at a loss to explain why that is... the point being that snorting and oral administartion should both get the MDMA molecule into the blood so the only real difference would be the blood serum concentration timeline... it certainly lends some credibility to the neural connections in the intestines having something to do with it...

the only other difference AFAIK with snorting is that the molecule affects the olfactory epithelium and can transfer directly across the BBB via the olfactory bulb but i dont see how that would hurt the MDMA experience...

i guess a good place to start would be to do some research on people that use rectal administration and see how their experience varies qualitatively.. e.g. AFAIK they do not see any loss of 'magic' and yet the stomach/upper GI nerve cells would also not be affected when plugging...
 
We don't bump threads in ADD, folley.

I think it is far less likely that serotonin activity in the gut is the difference between oral and e.g. rectal/insufflated MDMA. More likely indeed is the fact that orally administered compounds almost always are subjected to much more hepatatic metabolism and with MDMA this generates compounds like the methylenedioxy-ring-opened derivatives and MDA that subjectively would be expected to change the quality of the experience somewhat.

Amphetamines are not as well absorbed nasally as they are rectally or orally, so that's a likely explanation for "less magical" trips. The users are just getting less MDMA in the blood and a flattened blood concentration curve.

To be frank I think the hypothesis that "only oral/rectal MDMA stimulate the vagus nerve, and are thereofre magical" is total bullshit. MDMA administred via any route is going to be systemically distributed in your body. And as alasdair so wonderfully pointed out, vagal nerve activity is not exactly "fun" - activation of the nerve causes lowered BP and heart rate and can produce rather nasty nauseous/dissociated/fainting feelings. The mere fact that the vagus nerve is effected at all shouldn't really play a part, because MDMA has systemic effects throughout the whole brain and body.

The entire process, my BL friends, is controlled by the intestines.
The 'brain damage' of MDMA is the intestines rewiring the brain.
And the connection between these 2 worlds literally defines your emotional self.
And no offense, FBC, but you're getting pretty far gone these days... Normally if I were unable to eat and live my life I would consider seeing a neurologist. I have yet to see you produce credible journal citations for any of your hypotheses either.

This thread is filled with so much twisting and shoehorning of evidence I am not suprised it has run as it has...
 
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^ If you read on though, you would see that a lowered heart rate would lead to the release of more NE, which would directly cause a more "magical" experience...


To be frank I think the hypothesis that "only oral/rectal MDMA stimulate the vagus nerve, and are thereofre magical" is total bullshit. MDMA administred via any route is going to be systemically distributed in your body.

I would agree with that though actually, I dont think that its NOT stimulating the Vagus at all, but rather that it is inhibiting parasympathetic actions, which would shoot heart rate up, possible releasing adrenaline as well, which would cause an subjectively "speedier" high
 
NE release, in my opinion, is not very "magical" at all. Ask people who have had Strattera how magical they feel.

I think it's a lot more likely that MDMA is doing standard amphetamine-type sympathetic stimulation. Atropine would be an example of a drug that inhibits the parasympathetic system, and MDMA doesn't really resemble that in activity or structure.

But who knows. All the evidence we have to work with so far is pretty subjective. Unless you can run assays on rats or some shit then you're not going to really find the difference between MDMA routes of administration.
 
Well it wouldnt be from the NE alone, it would be Serotonin, dopamine, prolactin and oxytocin as well...


But yeah, there isn't too much further this can go other than speculation and theory. Maybe I can get some researcher in Holland somewhere to test this for me :\
 
Well it wouldnt be from the NE alone, it would be Serotonin, dopamine, prolactin and oxytocin as well...


But yeah, there isn't too much further this can go other than speculation and theory. Maybe I can get some researcher in Holland somewhere to test this for me :\

Ok, two things:
1) please shut up and look at comparative bioavailability, snorting is something I just don't understand why people do
2) "loss of magic" is probably the same pathway as every amphetamine/stimulant produces tolerance, its a combination of neural rewiring and changes in the regulation of various proteins and genes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850153
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20942998
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18035407
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8840347

My $0.02 is that its a combination of the same basic processes seen in amphetamine tolerance, and some extra changes to the 5HT systems (axon pruning and long term depletion of 5HT2AR?).
So in conclusion, please for the love of your god learn to search "MDMA" in pubmed and read some basic review articles then see what happens with repeated use.
 
So in conclusion, please for the love of your god learn to search "MDMA" in pubmed and read some basic review articles then see what happens with repeated use.

Well OK then, dick.


Read this thread again. LOSS of magic, is due to chronic serotonin and other chemicals release, which causes damage to the 5HT receptors.


This happens after repeated use of MDMA, and makes absolutely no difference to this thread. I'm not taking about a LOSS of magic. I'm taking about snorted MDMA to have LESS magic than other RoAs.

This would be true for someone who has NEVER done MDMA, or someone who rolls every week. I don't know where the fuck you're getting this repeated use thing from, this would be the same with one dose, or with hundreds.
 
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Well OK then, dick...This happens after repeated use of MDMA, and makes absolutely no difference to this thread. I'm not taking about a LOSS of magic. I'm taking about snorted MDMA to have LESS magic than other RoAs.

It's not very nice to name call those who have given you the probable answer, IMO. The answer has actually been given twice.

1. sekio:
Amphetamines are not as well absorbed nasally as they are rectally or orally, so that's a likely explanation for "less magical" trips. The users are just getting less MDMA in the blood and a flattened blood concentration curve.

2. Epsilon Alpha:
look at comparative bioavailability, snorting is something I just don't understand why people do
(translation - snorting results in lowered BA)

So basically, you get less 'magic' because your dose is lower. Dose higher intranasally, or lower with oral. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.
 
LOSS of magic, is due to chronic serotonin and other chemicals release, which causes damage to the 5HT receptors.

This is only a hypothesis for the "loss of magic" - sure, acute/chronic tolerance does form to the effects of MDMA but some people find that even though they feel stimulatory effects (raised BP, dialated pupils etc) they don't find the experience pleasurable. And it has been demonstrated many times that at normal human dosage levels there is essentially no long-term neurotoxicity.

As far as I know the actual 5-HT receptors are only downregulated, not "damaged". The cells containing them may incur axonal damage but as stated before it is generally reversible and only present in massive overdose scenarios.

I personally think "loss of magic" is a closer beast to the "loss of magic" seen in amphetamine usage, namely overusage causes your brain to find the experience less rewarding to the point where you don't derive any pleasure eventually. After all, MDMA is still an amphetamine and a monoamine releaser...

Anyway I think this thread is nearing closing time seeing that the question's been answered.
 
I don't think it JUST has to do with bioavailability though, you can snort more MDMA and you'll still just have more of the speedy and less "loved up" feelings than you would with oral MDMA.


Which is really why I started this thread, its not that snorting is less effective per say, but that it is almost a completely different high
 
sekio said:
orally administered compounds almost always are subjected to much more hepatatic metabolism and with MDMA this generates compounds like the methylenedioxy-ring-opened derivatives and MDA that subjectively would be expected to change the quality of the experience

So plainly put, snorted MDMA is going to remain more as plain MDMA and less will be metabolized/converted to the more psychedelic compounds like MDA.

It could also have to do with the concentration vs time - i.e. even though snorting is less effective BA wise it produces a more rapid peak, so snorting a bioequivalent dose will hit harder and faster. Orally absorbed compounds must instead pass through the liver before entering circulation so the comeup is "smoothed out".
 
folley, how do you account for the fact that two different users can take exactly the same amount of exactly the same mdma using exactly the same route of administration and have a completely, qualitatively different experience?

alasdair
 
folley, how do you account for the fact that two different users can take exactly the same amount of exactly the same mdma using exactly the same route of administration and have a completely, qualitatively different experience?

alasdair

P450 differences and variations in several neurotransmitter systems. Same reason why some people love certain drugs while others just can't stand them, also drug use can change the brain's future "response" to other drugs. I know way too many people that had ADHD meds ruin cannabis for them.
 
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