mdma effects based on ROA... moved from ED

[Folley]

*DISCLAIMER*
This is only a theory, and one in progress. I do not claim to know or understand all aspects of the link, or even if there is one. I will do my best to explain the evidence shown here, but take everything with a grain of salt.

This has not been confirmed by any means, but I hope to provide sufficient evidence so that this can be given the credit and thought it deserves.

Previous discussion can be found here:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/615692-capped-mdma

and I trust that you're all old enough to keep this thread from turning into a pissing match like the last.



ANYWAYS, I hope I didnt just discredit myself too much. Here we go!




A trend that has shown itself among MDMA users on this site, is that when snorted, MDMA seems to lose a lot of the "love" and "magic" that is present when you pop a pill.

Some people explain the speedy effects you receive as just being a result of the quicker come up time. If that was true though, why does plugging and sublingual still seem to retain the magic? They are almost the same RoA... and have almost the same come up time.

The explanation is simple to me though, your mouth and ass are still a part of your digestive system... here is why that is important.


Your stomach is controlled by serotonin, its true! 90% of the neurochemical is found in your gut, and it is there to help aid digestion and maintain homeostasis by expelling poison, either through puke or diarrhea. That is not all it does though.

The second brain informs our state of mind in other more obscure ways, as well. "A big part of our emotions are probably influenced by the nerves in our gut," Mayer says. Butterflies in the stomach—signaling in the gut as part of our physiological stress response, Gershon says—is but one example. Although gastrointestinal (GI) turmoil can sour one's moods, everyday emotional well-being may rely on messages from the brain below to the brain above. For example, electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve—a useful treatment for depression—may mimic these signals, Gershon says.

Given the two brains' commonalities, other depression treatments that target the mind can unintentionally impact the gut. The enteric nervous system uses more than 30 neurotransmitters, just like the brain, and in fact 95 percent of the body's serotonin is found in the bowels. Because antidepressant medications called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) increase serotonin levels, it's little wonder that meds meant to cause chemical changes in the mind often provoke GI issues as a side effect. Irritable bowel syndrome—which afflicts more than two million Americans—also arises in part from too much serotonin in our entrails, and could perhaps be regarded as a "mental illness" of the second brain.

The second brain? What is that? Its your stomach!! Your gut is a very important part of your day to day emotions... when your stomach is upset, you're going to feel like shit. When your nice and full of food, you feel content and happy. Any everyone knows the butterflys you get when your anxious.

This brings me to my next trend among ecstasy users... stomach problems.


Severly Etarded gave me a great idea recently when he said

^ I always get it for about 15 minutes between T+:30-45, then they start kicking in and nausea subsides.

The timing of that is what I think is of the most importance here. Before, I assumed that the serotonin in your gut was the first effected, as thats where the whole process starts. But taking a look at this made me think about something...

30+ minutes after your drop, the MDMA should be digested most of the way. If the problem with nausea was just the chemical upsetting your stomach, it should be happening sooner than that, right?
What I THINK is happening, is that the MDMA is digested, reaches the brain, and the balance of serotonin in the two brains is offset (there is a natural balance, and it is important to our emotions) as serotonin is released in the brain.

Now, look at this piece of info.

In recent years the link between the nervous system and the digestive system has been recognized. There is a constant exchange of chemicals and electrical messages between the two systems. In fact, many scientists often refer to them as one entity; the brain-gut axis. Therefore, what affects the stomach will directly affect the brain and vice versa.

source


Basically, what this is saying, is that if something makes a change to the serotonin in your brain, the serotonin in your gut HAS to be effected. So when the levels of serotonin are ofs

What would this mean with an amazingly fun drug like MDMA though? Well, this is what I am theorizing.

After the change to your neurons caused by MDMA, a literal dump of serotonin into the synapse, I think the change in your stomach is soon to follow. What change though? Well... I wish I knew.

The Vagus Nerve shows promise, stimulation of it can give feelings of well being, and it is connected with the gut in a pretty substantial way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsal_nucleus_of_vagus_nerve



But, we've hit a wall.

Drug research is majorly restricted around the world, and to test the kinds of changes that I am talking about, you would need to have a human subject eat MDMA and run hundreds of tests on him...

That would be a waste of a roll for one lol, but basically, its just never going to happen. Not with the current laws against science...



Right now, I would say a good 90% of the information we obtained about MDMA, is from studies that use rats or mice. And almost always, they use injection to dose the subject. Obviously, this would bypass the stomach completely, so contrary to what some people may tell you, MDMA's effects arnt caused by the brain alone.



You may be thinking to yourself though, if it is the offset of serotonin that causes changes in the stomach, why dont the changes in the brain that snorting causes do the same thing? I've been thinking on that for a while, and it seems Im stuck here.
Its the one thing that can keep this from being proven, but I will still include it so the entire truth is here for you to make your own judgement.


A simple answer is that the chemical still sitting in your stomach is what causes the increased serotonergic effects/connection. I dont stand by that simple answer though. It may be true, but theres nothing to support it really..

Do think about L-Tryptophan, SSRIs, and other serotonin related drugs though. Oral is always the preferred way to take these, and seems to be the most effective. Of course, it doesnt need to be said that MDMA is not those, and that it has different effects on the body, but I cant find one serotonergic drug that is more effective nasally, MDMA included.





And all of this, is why I included the original disclaimer. Its obvious that the brain and gut are connected, and it obvious that when a large change is made to one, the other will soon follow. I really wish I had more information to give on the stomach, and HOW it plays into the changes in the neurons in your brain, but even experts do not understand this connection fully yet, and this is as far as I can go.


One day Im sure we will understand more of the connections of our two brains, but until now I have to leave this to theory, and let you make your own conclusion.




Just eat the MDMA though, people will agree the love is much more pronounced, and the high is just better.







*DISCLAIMER*
This is just a theory, and Im sure there are parts of this which you could find as incorrect. Hopefully I have shown you certain undeniable connections between the stomach and MDMA's effects, but we just wont know more about it until more studies are done.



All discussion is welcome, if it is constructive to the topic. Feel free to post questions or comments, and if you want to correct something that I said, please do!

Flaming and personal issues are to be left at the door however.

 

[scureto1]

One gigantic, gaping hole in this theory is that neither the sublingual route nor the rectal route goes into the digestive system. They both pass through thin mucous membranes directly into the bloodstream. The rectum is a one-way passage, things don't go from the rectum back into the intestines, which is what is meant by the 'gut'.

 

[Folley]

The Vegus nerve, which I just found and is what I believe can explain all of this, also receives taste information, as well as controlling the gut, lungs, the neck and other muscles, speech, the heart the lower abdomen and the colon.

If you get the syringe all the way in while plugging, it should get into the colon, right?



Well the Vegus would explain all of that... and it seems to explain some of the effects of ecstasy themselves..

Research has shown that women having had complete spinal cord injury can experience orgasms through the vagus nerve, which can go from the uterus, cervix, and, it is presumed, the vagina to the brain.

thats just lol... but it would be cool if a girl dissolved some MDMA in a syringe and shot it up the Vayjayjay and compared the euphoria... pics for science of course

 

[alasdairm]

Just eat the MDMA though, people will agree the love is much more pronounced, and the high is just better.

how do you even begin to quantitatively analyse statements like these?

define "much more pronounced". define "better" explicitly in the context of the mdma high.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Wow.

You read all that, and thats what you have to say? With MDMA, I would qualify a better high of having more "magic". This magic is achieved through the release of chemicals like serotonin, prolactin, norepinephrine and other chemicals.

That would be what happens every time..

But it seems that when used through certain favorable RoA, the drug can stimulate the Vagus nerve. Stimulation of the Vagus nerve is used as a treatment for depression, and causes feelings of well being among other things. When added to the release already happening in the brain, this is going to cause a better high.




Reading on MDMA itself and stimulation of the Vagus, is telling me that MDMA does stimulate the Vagus Nerve, but it seems no one has tried to find out to what extent yet

 

[Folley]

Also, if this could get moved to BDD/ADD I would appreciate it, might be a bit much for Ecstasy Discussion.

 

[Vader]

ADD? Think bigger, you should get this published.

 

[Folley]

lol...


well it needs to be more complete before that, Id at least like to get some people who know what they're talking about to weigh in on this.

 

[augustaB]

Dear Folley,

I definitely agree that the vagus nerve is in some way involved.
But I don't agree that the mdma high after snorting is not as magical.

 

[rupture231]

For me, it's pretty much the same except that my brain is focused on the burning sensation and nasty drip. The magic is still THERE, I'm usually just focusing on the burning versus the roll itself. (snorting n00b) I feel like this would be the same if I shot some liquid up my bum bum, though. I'm set on always eating my stuff, though. No burn, same effect, my favorite roa :D

 

[alasdairm]

Wow.

You read all that, and thats what you have to say?

yes, that's what i have to say at this stage.

you invited us to leave personal issues "at the door". perhaps you could practice what you preach and do the same?

I would qualify a better high of having more "magic".

what does that mean. you're striving to discuss this scientifically so i think you need to hold yourself to the same standard. what does a high that has "more magic" mean in practice? doe sit just mean more of these chemicals are released? a different ratio of these chemicals are released? if so, again, that is a quantitative effect. how do you measure (because you have to be able to measure to compare) the effect qualitatively?

further, the release of serotonin (for one) is precipitated regardless of roa so what's different?

But it seems that when used through certain favorable RoA, the drug can stimulate the Vagus nerve.

it's been proposed that this happens but it's not understood and it's also a symptom not a cause.

Stimulation of the Vagus nerve is used as a treatment for depression, and causes feelings of well being among other things. When added to the release already happening in the brain, this is going to cause a better high.

stimulation of the vagus nerve is also credited with causing feelings of nausea, vomiting and headache. wouldn't these be generally associated with a 'worse' high?

i respect the fact that you're trying to establish a connection between a specific roa and a qualitatively different experience - more 'loved up', more 'magic' or whatever. how do you account for the fact that three - or three hundred - different people can ingest the substance via the same roa and report a qualitatively different experience.

with respect, i feel like you've already come to your conclusion and you're trying to shoehorn the evidence to fit. i know you're attached to your idea but, to any reasonable observer, your approach is decidedly unscientific. simply put, you're putting the cart before the horse.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Actually, more research is showing me that nasal stimulation will actually inhibit the Vagus...


I cant find anything that would actually relate to drugs that is saying this.... BUT

It is known that arterial baroreflexes are suppressed in stressful conditions. The present study was designed to determine whether and how hypoxia affects arterial baroreflexes, especially the heart rate component, baroreflex vagal bradycardia. In chloralose-urethane-anaesthetized rats, baroreflex vagal bradycardia was evoked by electrical stimulation of the aortic depressor nerve, and the effect of 15 s inhalation of hypoxic gas (4% O2) was studied. Inhalation of hypoxic gas was found to inhibit baroreflex vagal bradycardia. The inhibition persisted after bilateral transection of the carotid sinus nerve. Cervical vagus nerves were cut bilaterally and their peripheral cut ends were stimulated to provoke vagal bradycardia of peripheral origin so as to determine whether hypoxia could inhibit vagal bradycardia by acting on a peripheral site. In contrast to baroreflex vagal bradycardia, the vagus-induced bradycardia was not affected by hypoxic gas inhalation. It is concluded that baroreflex vagal bradycardia is inhibited by hypoxia and the inhibition is largely mediated by its direct central action.

I can barely understand this. But what it seems to say is that inhalation of this gas caused an inhibition of one of the Vagus's branches (BVB), and that when taken orally, this is not a problem...

hmmmmmmm






Honestly though, I could give a shit about the oral VS snorting part of this now... this whole Vagus thing is a big enough find as it is, Im going to spend my time researching on this link instead.


One this is for certain though, the Vagus is a big link between the stomach and the brain, and the brain stimulates this. I was wrong to assume that MDMA plays into this just because its in the stomach, but the stomach, Vagus and MDMA are all connected in some way.

 

[alasdairm]

stimulation of the vagus nerve is also credited with causing feelings of nausea, vomiting and headache. wouldn't these be generally associated with a 'worse' high? how does that factor into your theory?

when you're completely focused on a 'better' high, you're inevitably going to overlook - deliberately or otherwise - evidence which suggests that the outcome may actually be'worse'.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Release of serotonin could also cause those feelings. That doesn't mean it will.


Over-stimulation of the Vagus caused by rolling too often or dosing too high could sure cause those problems, but a light dose of MDMA is not likely too.

MDMA, meth, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, xanax, etc. all CAN cause nausea and headaches, that doesnt mean they will. That's obvious, it shouldn't need to be explained.




Look at the quote I took from SE. After digestion, as his brain starts actually pumping out the serotonin, he starts getting nausea. Thats the Vagus baby

 

[alasdairm]

Release of serotonin could also cause those feelings. That doesn't mean it will.

release of serotonin could also cause the feelings you're describing. that doesn't mean it will.

you can't use "maybe it does" as a reason, let alone proof of anything because, well, maybe it doesn't...

Over-stimulation of the Vagus caused by rolling too often or dosing too high could sure cause those problems, but a light dose of MDMA is not likely too.

a standard dose of mdma is proposed to stimulate the vagus and cause the symptoms i described. there's no requirement for overstimulation.

you say a 'light' dose is not likely to cause those problems? why?

MDMA, meth, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, xanax, etc. all CAN cause nausea and headaches, that doesnt mean they will. That's obvious, it shouldn't need to be explained.

for reasons nobody should have to explain, the scientific bar is set a little higher than "it's obvious".

Look at the quote I took from SE. After digestion, as his brain starts actually pumping out the serotonin, he starts getting nausea. Thats the Vagus baby

no. you're assuming it's related to the vagus. there's a big difference.

it's as likely that it's caused simply by inhibited digestion but when all you have is a hammer...

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Standard stimulation of the Vagus is not likely to cause problems, do you puke when you have an orgasm? No...


But yes, the Vagus can cause nausea, which could be why MDMA users often report such things. A common statement around here is "I always get nausea on the come up, but it usually goes away when the roll hits"

This hardly causes problems for any of those people, the benefits out weigh the minutes worth of nausea

 

[alasdairm]

But yes, the Vagus can cause nausea, which could be why MDMA users often report such things.

could be? if it could be, then it could not be too.

A common statement around here is "I always get nausea on the come up, but it usually goes away when the roll hits"

This hardly causes problems for any of those people, the benefits out weigh the minutes worth of nausea

sure. it's just as likely that the symptoms are caused by other (e.g. digestive) factors.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

It wouldn't happen every time for these people if it was just caused by stomach problems.

and right, it COULD cause nausea, and it COULD not cause nausea. Some people have horrible times on MDMA, but the Vagus is supposed to cause feelings of well being. A drug does not always do the same thing the same exact way every single time, many different things factor into the experience.

 

[Vader]

That's obvious, it shouldn't need to be explained.

That's not really how science works pal.

 

[alasdairm]

It wouldn't happen every time for these people if it was just caused by stomach problems.

why not?

A drug does not always do the same thing the same exact way every single time, many different things factor into the experience.

indeed.

that statement would seem to confirm that a statement like "oral mdma is more loved up" can not be true in a general sense.

alasdair