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Mass Delusion

Medatripper Tates said:
The greatest delusion society has adopted is the idea that the greatest of knowledge comes from understanding objective reality.
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thats your subjective observation and belief...;)
taoism would be a good representation of my belief
yin yang needs to be balanced
objective and subjective are both means to a same goal : creating life (aka surviving)
" understanding objective reality " for me rhymes with science and i feel we are still in a "believing in a subjective god" phase


We have completely ignored the potential of the subjective realm of experience and the reality of the understanding that it may bring.
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individual subjectivity vs collective subjectivity

collective subjectivity = our collective god is better than yours, lets play war...

What do you think the realest of understanding comes from?
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from the present moment
when there is no time space boundaries there is love

love = the realest of understanding
 
I would argue that true objectivity does not exist, since it would equal every single perspective. The physical universe only exists through perspective, since that is how it is experienced. True objectivity is the nondual- that which can only be experienced through subjective perspective.
 
ninjadanslarbretabar said:
thats your subjective observation and belief...;)
taoism would be a good representation of my belief
yin yang needs to be balanced
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love = the realest of understanding
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and this is what i am trying to convey...

devoting one's life to objectivity is distraction from understanding the subjective world of experience, such as love. there is so much depth to love, and do you think this is easily realized and accessed when we are always paying attention to and identified with the objective world?

when we are born and grow up, we are instantly consumed by language and education. education (of the objective) forms the system of thought we grow up to identify with. we become so identified with this knowledge, that it is all we know of the world. we lose sight of awareness, and in turn become less aware. we don't see awareness, we see a world shaped by objective influences. and this is a world of delusion because it is mistaken for truth. truth has depth, it has no limitation. we are deluded because we cannot see our depth of awareness and the mask that prevents us from realizing/accessing this. this doesn't have to be negative, just knowing it and becoming aware of it can be dramatically positive.

when we grow into the world, we are not educated on the dynamics of the mind, and our identification to the external world and how that effects the reality we create and experience. this is what i meant when i said we have ignored the subjective realm of experience. we were not taught the benefits of practicing self-reflection and self-awareness. meditation is paying attention to our inner processes, our subjective reality. and this brings much understanding, even of the objective world.

you talk about taoism, and yin and yang, yet you fail to see the imbalance that i speak of.

"The living question alone has the power, not to create this objective awareness, but rather to facilitate it by piercing through the wall of thought.

Awaken to an awareness that is always here to be remembered."
 
Are you alluding to the pursuit of the pre-natal state of unconscious bliss where every need was supplied as the foundation for truth?
 
maybe all we have in our existence is our beliefs? regardless if it's just a distraction who are you to say that everyone else's belief is wrong and stupid or objective and not? where in is the importance of such wonders?

i believe that a flying spaghetti monster individually controls the minds of every living thing on the planet by sending the information we perceive to be true directly through to our brains and he does this as he has his invisible spaghetti tentacles dug directly into our spinal cords.

i also believe that you are wrong with everything that you've ever thought of, and that you smell of elderberries.

i know i'm right because i, like america's great leader, go with the gut. and the spaghetti monster seems to fit well in there. that's where the real understanding lies in! what you feel, fuck what you can reason with!

in all seriousness, i've begun to more and more question the limits of any one persons understanding because everything we could possibly think lies within the man-made system we know as language- that which we communicate through. words only described with more words... maybe i'm just dumb, but i don't quite get it. is it possible we could experience things we could describe without the use of words?
 
Cyrus said:
maybe all we have in our existence is our beliefs? regardless if it's just a distraction who are you to say that everyone else's belief is wrong and stupid or objective and not? where in is the importance of such wonders?
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sure no one belief is better or any more right than another, but we are all consumed in varying degrees by our beliefs.

i believe that a flying spaghetti monster individually controls the minds of every living thing on the planet by sending the information we perceive to be true directly through to our brains and he does this as he has his invisible spaghetti tentacles dug directly into our spinal cords.
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so are you going to make a religion or realize that this is just a thought you have and drop it?

i also believe that you are wrong with everything that you've ever thought of, and that you smell of elderberries.
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i do too, everything i have said here is just a projection. elderberries taste good, but that doesn't mean anything. or have you tasted?

in all seriousness, i've begun to more and more question the limits of any one persons understanding because everything we could possibly think lies within the man-made system we know as language- that which we communicate through. words only described with more words... maybe i'm just dumb, but i don't quite get it. is it possible we could experience things we could describe without the use of words?
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this is exactly it, everything we know is just a description. seeing is before that and not of it, and seeing is hard when all we know how to do is perceive through our description. when i experienced amnesia description ceased, and i tasted a reality free of language. psychedelics and meditation ftw.
 
this thread is so awesome. I love it.
If I hadn't been awake for so long I would probably put in some more input, but for now, I'll just send it to all my friends.
 
Medatripper Tates said:
Originally Posted by namelesss
The Eastern mystics and the 'enlightened' have known this for millenia, quantum physics has discovered this relatively recently (last 100 years).
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and what i am saying is that something subjective can't be understood through objective means. it is only seeing through a description, it is not actually seeing.
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Everything is 'subjective.. there are no 'objective means' or objective anything.

Quote:
All perspectives are incomplete/limited (to one extent or another).
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and some perspectives are more limited than others.
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Hence the bold...
 
Medatripper Tates said:
...but we are all consumed in varying degrees by our beliefs.
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Please don't speak for everyone. There are some of us who are free of 'beliefs', as am I.
You are certainly qualified, though, to speak for yourself.
Peace
 
it's really doubtful that you are completely free from identification with your beliefs. it's arrogant to assume you are aware at all times of the subconscious processes of the mind.
 
namelesss said:
Everything is 'subjective.. there are no 'objective means' or objective anything.
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you are misunderstanding -

In the thought plane, or the plane of mindtinctured Buddhi, man's thought is objective to the world of that plane. That is why people think everything in objective terms, even about experience. In the process of thinking, there should be the thinker, thinking and the object of thought. When the pointer reaches the pure Buddhic plane, man loses the cognizance of the objects and enters into the process of thinking in abstract values. Gradually he learns to identify himself with the values. This gradual process is termed Dharana and Dhyana by Patanjali. As the pointer proceeds in the process of boring into the plane of experience, man becomes one with the plane. The cognizance of the object of the experience and the consciousness that experiences will be dissolved into oneness (experience). Time ceases to exist at this stage, because time is an objective value and has no place here. Place and position including displacement also belong to the objectivity and they also cease to exist. This stage is called Samadhi by Patanjali. At this stage, the initiating cause (Guru) exists in the experience (disciple) as only the experience and not as his experience.
 
I mean, why do this? Why go to Samadhi in the first place? I think because it feels good (it does after all). Meditation to this point to me is a process of ignoring/shutting down all of your senses which only serve to tell you of what your body needs - more food, more sleep, relax this muscle, spine is out of balance, listening to your inner voice etc. Your senses only give positive feelings when you respond to the negative feelings you had so by shutting them out like when they were inactive inside the womb you get a reminiscing of that time when there was no good or bad but contentment.

Have you ever noticed that once you succeed in shutting out language during meditation, it no longer requires effort to keep it away?
 
Medatripper Tates said:
it's really doubtful that you are completely free from identification with your beliefs. it's arrogant to assume you are aware at all times of the subconscious processes of the mind.
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Hahahaha! Really?
It might be 'doubtful', but only to the extent that I do not 'believe' it! *__-

If you tell me that you always know when you itch, is it arrogance?
If I tell you that I am not 'angry', wouldn't you think that I would be the best judge of that (all other things being equal)? Wouldn't attempting to argue that you might know what I feel better than I arrogance?
If I tell you that you must itch subconsciously and simply are unaware of it, am I being arrogant? If I see you scratching (unconsciously), then there is possible evidence in support of 'subconscious itching'...
(The proof is in the pudding!)

No, I 'identify' with nothing (but Consciousness).
I entertain no 'beliefs'. The evidence of a 'belief' is displayed for all to see. Like 'love'; like itching. Words such as "I love you" mean nothing unless evidenced in action/behavior.
If you see evidence of a 'belief' in my words and behavior (more words here) please feel free to point it out and we can discuss it. I might be very surprised. Like a paraplegic waking in the AM with a leg! But I doubt it. I do know 'self' very well.
Peace
 
jam uh weezy said:
Originally Posted by namelesss
There are some of us who are free of 'beliefs', as am I.
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This is belief.
You are certainly qualified, though, to speak for yourself.
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As is this.
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No, not even close. Both quotes are simply observational statements. I do not 'believe' them. They appear to be observations. Simple.
What would make you want to argue such a thing as the validity of my self knowledge and/or my honesty here? Could it be that 'believers' naturally seek like minded believers and eschew even the possibility of someone not so blessed?
Sheesh..
 
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Just act like what works most simply is real.

Reality is irrelevant,

logic dictates we act as if the most probable scenario is the case.

belief, ins any form, is blind idiocy.

That includes believing one "knows" ANYTHING, like "God exists" or "If i let this go, it will fall" or "particles are particles".

if things have always fallen when one released them,
then they will probably continue to fall,
so it is logical to act as if they will continue to fall.
do not believe for one second that they actually will.
 
The_Idler said:
Just act like what works most simply is real.

Reality is irrelevant,

logic dictates we act as if the most probable scenario is the case.

belief, ins any form, is blind idiocy.

That includes believing one "knows" ANYTHING, like "God exists" or "If i let this go, it will fall" or "particles are particles".

if things have always fallen when one released them,
then they will probably continue to fall,
so it is logical to act as if they will continue to fall.
do not believe for one second that they actually will.
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QFT!!!
 
I have just one belief,
a reality outside my mind.

without it, I'd go insane,
but deep down, i know i'm just pretending.
 
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