Masculinity and Psychonautics?

[Wayne Gale]

This seems rather a good explanation, as it seems to fit both the propositions (1) that males more than females are inclined to take psychedelics; and (2) that the psychedelic state is reported by some males to tap into feminine aspects of the self. Certainly, males tend on average to have more symptoms on the autistic spectrum than females; suggesting we're more in need of connectedness and emotional exploration than the average female.

Would this line of argument apply even more strongly to empathogen/entactogens? Does anyone know what the typical gender profile of MDMA users is?

Yes I think your argument would apply more strongly to empathegeons, I know I take them for that very reason. However I certainly don't take psychedelics for this reason. I simply use them for the adventure, to explore areas of myself that may very well scare the shit out of me and have me fighting for my life, I get a thrill out of this similar I suppose to the ancient people who would go out to hunt or more recently go to war and this I believe is why men predominatly will use psychedelics, to fill this void left by modern society.

 

[ieke_kurpilum]

This is a really great topic

+++There's all those legendary female psychonauts out there, like Neurosoup and Mistress K. Although, I don't know if they frequent the bluelight forums. It seems like when girls get into psychedelics, they make guys look like amateurs...

Neurosoup aka Krystle Cole aka the ex-girlfriend of Gordon Todd Skinner, the man behind the huge LSD silo case and an DEA informer. Before Cole met Skinner she was a lonely somewhat depressed stripper with nada knowledge about psychedelics. So, back to the girlfriend theory....
But yeah, even so, she is one of the few ladies in the field publishing even something. But from what I have read it's really nothing insightful or exciting. Not trying to start flaming her or anything, but when you now mentioned her in the first place.

See. Lysergic. Dog Ear Publising. 2005.



In my own experince it's very true that females mostly don't use so much internet forums. At least not anonymous geeky ones (compared to sites like myspace which is more a meet your irl friends place). And they are not so geeky about psychedelics, even if they are really into the spiritual side of life and using psychedelic for that. But then again I only know a couple girls who are into that sort of thing for real.
Most of the girls I have met who use psychedelics are either recretional users without the whole spiritual lifestyle and attitude or then they are neo-hippies into psytrance. Both the same thing in the end. Ok, neo-hippies are more spiritual than regular drug users who also use psychedelics from time to time, but even then many are in only for the recreational side.


Conserning the hetero-/homosexual question; there was a study done here in Finland about ten years ago about drug use in the rave scene. Done like a questionnaire, ethnographic one. They compared populations using mostly speed and other stimulants and people using psyhcedelics at parties. When going deeper into the psychedelics using population they wrote that that kind of people are a lot more prone to wanting to change things in society, into doing things to change things in society (this, they state, is mostly trying to change drug laws), into healty lifestyle (vegetarianism, organic products etc.), dropping out from society, being more aware of social rules and things like that. They also wrote about a tendecy of males in the psychedelics using group to have at least tried homosexuality, and even become homosexual after getting into the whole psychedelic community. As one female interviewed said: "Many heterosexuals have become gay after using psychedelics".

In the article they also draw really interesting connections between psytrances parties as easy and soft access to other dimensions of consciousness making a bridge between "the old world" and the new highly cyberdelic world, where everything is soon going to be like virtual reality. So by going to psytrance parties and using psychedelics people are learning how to live in the soon to become virtual reality cybenetic world! They cite an article by Simon Reynolds on this theory, so maybe a lot more of you can look that up than the Finnish paper. And have to remember that this was late 90s when this theory was written by Reynolds


Here is the refs;
Pauliina Seppälä: Kielletyt aineet ja niiden merkitys teknokulttuurissa (eng. Prohibited substances and their role in the techno culture). In the book "Pyhä huumesota: Huumepolitiikan pelkoja ja utopiota". (eng. The Holy War on Drugs: fears and utopias of drugpolicy). Ed. Tapio Onnella. Pultti/Visio 2001.

Reynolds, Simon: Rave culture. Article in the book "The Clubcultures Reader". Ed. Readhead, Steve et al. Wiley-Blackwell 1997.

 

[Shambles]

I think that the poll is slightly misleading, I think that the percentages are more indicative of the amount of guys who will talk shit about psychedelics on the internet. Most women who eat psychedelics have lots more sense than to do that

Think there may well be something to this actually. I know/have known plenty of women who love their psyches as much as anyone else here. Never known a one of them that would post on an internet forum about it though.

 

[hamhurricane]

^^^
i agree there is something more to it, why do more men post on forums? this can be viewed as a sign that men are introverted or less socially comfortable, and women are more likely to get their social contact IRL, but i think there is more to it than that.

we go to BL because we are not satisfied talking to some guy we know who has taken LSD a few times, we are OBSESSED, we want to talk to other people who are in the top 99th percentile of psychedelic obsession, and at the top there are mostly men.

this phenomenon was explained beautifully in an article i read last year, which i must try to find. the article observed that the majority of criminals and nobel prize winners are male, ie we make up the best and worst of society where as women take up the middle, in terms of net positive contribution to the world men and women are equal but since we occupy the extremes our impact is more visible.

to extrapolate this to psychedelics, it is men who most create them, and men who most abuse them, men at the extremes...and the majority of level headed responsible psychedelic use which does not result in hospitilization, incarceration, or scientific/philosophical breakthroughs might be from women, since this use does not draw attention to itself, we do not see or remember it.

 

[psood0nym]

^I did a quick lazy search and didn't come up with anything. I'd be interested in the conclusions of that article hamhurricane.

This seems rather a good explanation, as it seems to fit both the propositions (1) that males more than females are inclined to take psychedelics

I'm just going to re-post post #54 again.

"I ran a quick search and came up with this. Basically it says males have more opportunities to use drugs but after being presented with the opportunity young males and females are just as likely to try psychedelics and continue to use them. I think being into psychedelics today involves a factor that the article above doesn't account for though. For the most part, obtaining and using a wide array of unresearched psychedelic chemicals (and it is this promise of novelty beyond the standard LSD/mushroom choices that motivates many of us) is not a matter of social opportunity/maintenance but a matter of an individual's motivation to independently seek them out (a behavior pattern more strongly associated with males.) It may be that the ostensible fact that males tend to use psychedelics much more prevalently and with a greater fervor than females is partially a result of unresearched chemicals being removed from the explicitly social contexts of other psychedelics--where, again, females appear to be just as likely to try and to continue to use them."

 

[prince albert]

true true...not many females into the RC scene. Plenty of acid heads and E-tards though. MOST chicks that are into the drug scene will go for rolls and pot over just about everything. They don't seem to have the inclination to EXPLORE but reather they seek approval from the dug using males around them and also there is a lot more "fear of a bad trip" with girls.

a lack a machismo, obviously due to the fact they are GIRLS and girls in the drug scene are not really known for being well-balanced, good cildhoods, etc etc. the whole seeking love in all the wrong places and getting high would be considered in MANY circles to be indicative of some "problems" with chicks.

I know a LOT of guys that had perfectly normal upbringings that now smoke pot and trip and would be down to try 2ce or DMT or something....
but ALL of the girls I know that trip regularly or are "into" doing drugs.... they came from some kind of fucked up family, dad beat her, uncle raped her, mom hates her, brother's retarded, wasn't loved enough/loved too much, some kinda screwed up childhood.

I dunno if this is just thepeople I know of if this is simmilar to what's up everywhere else too...

 

[*Love*Lite*]

true true...not many females into the RC scene. Plenty of acid heads and E-tards though. MOST chicks that are into the drug scene will go for rolls and pot over just about everything. They don't seem to have the inclination to EXPLORE but reather they seek approval from the dug using males around them and also there is a lot more "fear of a bad trip" with girls.

a lack a machismo, obviously due to the fact they are GIRLS and girls in the drug scene are not really known for being well-balanced, good cildhoods, etc etc. the whole seeking love in all the wrong places and getting high would be considered in MANY circles to be indicative of some "problems" with chicks.

I know a LOT of guys that had perfectly normal upbringings that now smoke pot and trip and would be down to try 2ce or DMT or something....
but ALL of the girls I know that trip regularly or are "into" doing drugs.... they came from some kind of fucked up family, dad beat her, uncle raped her, mom hates her, brother's retarded, wasn't loved enough/loved too much, some kinda screwed up childhood.

I dunno if this is just thepeople I know of if this is simmilar to what's up everywhere else too...

In response to the bold words above... I am female and my family could not be more loving, my dad only spanked me once... and I really deserved it, my mom loves me and I her, my brother is questionably "retarded" but I do love him, he is a junior at UMD studying to be an environmental attorney, IS THERE SUCH A THING AS LOVED TOO MUCH?, and my childhood was beautiful and I would revisit it in a second. *rant rant rant*

so please wont you explain my fascination and love of drugs and my lack of a "fucked up family/past."??!!

lets not try and analyze the TYPE of girls that are drawn to drugs, because most of the girls that I know that like to get down are healthy and happy and love life and the thrill and wonder that tripping brings into it. How about the type of PEOPLE that are drawn to drugs... in which case were you referring to yourself in that description of female drug user?

I will say that I do have an underlying fear of having a bad trip... but my bad trips usually stem from an internal struggle rather than a past experience. But i know plenty of guys that are concerned with having a bad trip too... its only natural. I would not qualify that emotion as female.

Heres a question for you... why do guys that have such love for drugs fall for girls that wont put up with it? Are there just not enough girls that are into drugs out there? Or is having to hide it part of the thrill?

*End Rant*

Hi PD

 

[B9]

Hi karma

Heres a question for you... why do guys that have such love for drugs fall for girls that wont put up with it?

Well I certainly wouldn't put up with it.

But to further my point about blokes posting about stuff as opposed to women I drew the attention of my missus to the poll & she said "log in & vote for me". In EADD there's plenty females who eat psychs who rarely (if ever) visit PD.

 

[*Love*Lite*]

^^ I agree with you there Honestly before Bluelight I didn't even frequent forums at all... but now I have 4 that I go to semi-regularly.

 

[Roger&Me]

Thank god we have Karma here to set some of these guys straight! :D

 

[B9]

I post way too much but my excuse ( now at least) is being stuck at work which is true.

R&M Thank god we have Karma here to set some of these guys straight!

Yup karma redressing the imbalance in PD & the universe - she's everywhere all at once & all the time

 

[psood0nym]

Heres a question for you... why do guys that have such love for drugs fall for girls that wont put up with it?

There's a lot more of those kinds of women to choose from. We also like women that demonstrate good judgment.

EDIT: Ok, any ideas on how my post got to the top of the pile at 20:16 when the post says 17:52? The same thing happened last night with a post in the 2C-E thread. I'm not complaining, I'm pretty fuckin awesome and naturally the more face time I get the better for humanity. But, you know, I'm curious.

EDIT 2: Ok, now a minute after my first edit it says it reached the top of the pile at 4:16 if that clues someone in. Seems like a more natural adjustment, preserving the ":16" and all. I'd figure it for a fluke but it's the second time in two nights/two posts in a row. Oops, now back to 20:16, and the 2CTFM thread appears as the last post from the Focus Forums page and registers at 19:42. Damn you Chronos!

 

[Toefur]

Your post keeps jumping to the top because people keep voting on the poll... I only just noticed that too...

Originally Posted by karma1485
Heres a question for you... why do guys that have such love for drugs fall for girls that wont put up with it?

I think it's because we all need someone to keep us in line...

 

[dankstersauce]

it might have something to do with the vulnerability that accompanies being spun out of your f'n mind. Being afraid someone will take advantage of them or try to rape them or something? (at least in certain situations) I also know all the gfs I've had and dosed weren't particularly thrilled about the duration of an acid trip.

Also, in my little corner of the world I've noticed women/girls buy into the DARE propaganda that taking psychedelics will make you see pink elephants attacking you with knives. I know this isn't the case everywhere, so don't flame me, but IME it appears females are generally more afraid of psychedelics...guys seem to be a little braver/more interested in exploring psychedelic madness.

But overall, I think drug geeks are generally guys. People who post on message boards are generally guys...which could explain the 100 to 6

 

[swilow]

Whoever posts last is comes up as the last poster simply if someone votes on the poll.

 

[B9]

I've noticed women/girls buy into the DARE propaganda that taking psychedelics will make you see pink elephants attacking you with knives. I know this isn't the case everywhere, so don't flame me, but IME it appears females are generally more afraid of psychedelics

Not my experience - in fact I believe it to be more related to a class/nurture thing. Working class seem to get wised up sooner to some realities than "nice young ladies" from a "good background". (* sweeping generalisation)

So essentially it is our duty to show these types of girls the reality of psychedelics & all the delights that come with that :D

Well we don't want them to be walking about predjudiced & repressed & all that now do we?

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

My observation has always been that the people who dabble in psychedelics tend to be somewhere on the gender spectrum other than the very ends, no matter what anatomical sex they are. The men have a well-developed feminine side and the women have a well-developed masculine side. I can't say whether this is because of the boundary-breaking effects of psychedelic drugs on people's minds, or if people with a history of boundary transgression are more likely to be interested in trying psychedelics in the first place. Probably both.

That said, I only use sporadically and only know others who are the same way. I'm a middling drug geek. I'm content to stick to a few LSD trips a year.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

One further thought. Someone a couple pages back was talking about rites of passage / vision quest / becoming a man type experiences, that are common in primitive societies. I think the key to these experiences is coming to terms with the fact that you are, ultimately, weak and transient. I think males are more in need of such an experience to mark the transition into adulthood, because it's easier for them to sustain a delusion that they are powerful and will last forever. Coming back from a vision quest, a man understands just how fragile his life is, and just how much he depends on other people and the bounty of the earth for his wellbeing AS MUCH AS he depends on himself. Ironically, this realization of your own weakness is what confers a very resilient sort of strength for making one's way through life.

I don't know that women are as much in need of this reminder, on the average.

 

[swilow]

^Thats it- a common interpretation of shamnic vision quests (which are almost solely male) is that females are not permitted to perform them simply due to physical weakness etc. This is a view which is born in our western societies....many tribes explain that women are complete already, and hence need not perform these ordeals to reach "full humanness" whereas men, with that "something" missing (empathy perhaps) are forced to "become a man" via ordeals as such. Anthropologists have constantly seen that as sexism, or equivalent to our society, whereas the truth is that it is sexist; but not towards females, but males. That said, males are a lot more primitive in reactions then females IMO, when it comes to such as impulse-control and control of agression.

Or the transition to femalesness is marked by physical maturity; for males, there needs to be an obvious line of demaracation in between boyhood and manhood, and being able to shoot cum isn't enough

Good posts MDAO, especially that last one. I really agree with what you are saying.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

This is getting off topic, but as a little kid on the schoolyard, I was always jealous of girls, because I felt on a deep level that unlike boys, they had absolutely nothing to prove, nothing they needed to do or achieve in order to feel, and be regarded by others as, whole.

In reference to pso0donym's post, I'd venture a guess that the prenatal hormonal cocktail I got in the womb wasn't a purely male recipe. I definitely do not fit the definition for either gay or transsexual, but I sympathize with both of these groups, because at the molecular level, I got dealt a similar hand to them. I feel I can change, based on the situation, how masculine or feminine to be. I can sincerely play either the restless, ambitious, pain-taking, providing male, or the nurturing, communicative, security seeking female. This is a curse in that it's easy to choose unwisely, and few others seem to relate to my ability to play such a spectrum of gender roles.

But back to psychedelics...
I find that psychedelics, especially DOx, teach me to be more comfortable with my shapeshifting, chameleon nature. Over the course of the average DOI or DOB trip, and on the occasional LSD trip, I'll run through the full gamut of emotional states and archetypal patterns, and even discover a few more of each that I hadn't realized existed.

I definitely don't relate to macho males who take psychs in large doses or not-guaranteed-friendly settings, in order to prove to themselves or others how 'hard' they are. I definitely go into them seeking discovery and adventure, as I'm about as adventurous as they come. But I agree with others who've said that there are far better pursuits for guys whose main goal is to show the world they've got a pair.