Lysergamides LSI, Ancient LSD, Secret of the Eleusis Kykeon and Vedic SOMA

[red22]

Even if that's true, it's not the end of the world, and even if it's a misguided endeavor, he did put effort into it, and even impressed an expert in the field, so arguably he should get an A for effort.

 

[Didgital]

That would be a bad thing, if for any reason because in the event that the same type of thread grows elsewhere, the arguments in this one will be gone. I'm a big believer in perserving information, and that includes misinformation.

Well what If I became a mod and I changed the thread title to DEBUNKED LSI Kykeon etc. I never said he didn't put in the effort. In fact I've never seen someone put so much effort into something like this. ever. Which I find disturbing. Like with this amount effort could have been used for good in the world. not deceiving/manipulating people.

 

[Didgital]

I also believe this, having followed the last few years of discussion on the shroomery threads primarily, the use of puppet accounts is both obvious and perplexing. I would caution against casting such a wide net (i.e. any new account who has only posted here = tregar), as I'm at least one exception on that list. I have my own reason for limited and focused posting in this thread, but it's not because I'm an alt of tregar. I've seen his face, and I've looked in a mirror, and it's not a match (if it were, I assure you I'd attempt to stop the madness like in this movie).

The way I've looked at this up until now is as follows:

• Tregar is an unreliable source at best, with misinformation that could lead to harm in the worst case
• Tregar has used puppet accounts on multiple forums to artificically support his claims or bury unwanted scrutiny (demonstrated deception)
• Tregar has no clear motivation to lie; I'm doubtful it's been a ruse for book sales, so I'm left to believe it's either for attention, or he truly believes what he's saying

My reasoning for at least attempting to reproduce his procedure was that, despite the obvious misinformation, deception, and nonsense chemistry, he really did perform what he describes. I purchased his book soon after it was released (I do not recommend spending your money on this, it's basically his rambling megaposts copied into book format, with added pictures). The pictures demonstrate that he actually did this procedure. One comment he makes that the final residue resembles "slimy banana peel" is exactly what I observed, so that was additional confirmation that he at least made it that far. In summary, I wanted to see if there was perhaps a real observation, being buried by poor chemistry and communication skills. There wasn't.

@Didgital you may find this thread (from 2020) an interesting read, if you haven't already.
https://www.bluelight.org/community...52-like-upgraded-version-of-lsd.890589/page-4

Within that thread, you'll find the original quote from vecktor regarding some old TLC results. For comparison, I've added the version that tregar continuously uses in his posts.




Notice the difference? The observations and conclusions of vecktor are completely changed to fit tregar's needs. The presence of water precludes any change in the alkaloid profile. In the original thread, vecktor exhaustively tries to communicate this to tregar, but it's like watching a chemist talk to a politician, the latter just repeats what he wants to hear. It doesn't help that tergar also constantly edits his posts.



@Allylbenzene I'm honestly surprised Nichols is entertaining this idea, as the structure isn't something I'd expect to be very active based on the extensive work that Nichols and others have done with di- and monosubstituted N-alkylamides. For reference, the structures of lysergic acid (R)-α-hydroxyisovaleramide (left, the hypothetical adduct) and lysergic acid isovaleramide (right) are below.

Personally, I've already moved on to other areas of interest. I'm specifically interested in the conversion of the hemiacetal LSH (from fresh seeds) into a stable acetal. This is real chemistry that can be done in anhydrous methanol with an acid catalyst like PPTS. The structural similarity of this product, lysergic acid α-methoxyethylamide, would be closer to products like LSB (specifically the R stereoisomer) or LSP, which meet or exceed the potency of LSD in animal drug discrimination assays. This is not a new idea, and the aforementioned vecktor suggested it briefly in the above thread:


For reference, the structures of lysergic acid (S)-α-methoxyethylamide (assume this stereoisomer would be most active), (R)-2-butylamide (LSB), and 3-pentylamide (LSP):

I just took the time to read your entire comment and I want to say thank you for your words, and that you actually did give it a go. Sorry that I called you a shill. You're a real one.

 

[Allylbenzene]

...just so I can delete this entire thread...

Imo this thread has good info/discussion so deleting it entirely seems rash. Instead it would seem preferable to simply edit tregars posts as necessary. This also keeps the skepticism visible, particularly yours which I think everyone should get a chance to see don't you think?

 

[Allylbenzene]

I'm honestly surprised Nichols is entertaining this idea, as the structure (lysergic acid α-hydroxyisovaleramide: hypothetical adduct) isn't something I'd expect to be very active...

I think either (1) isopentanal isn't the main aldehyde of interest (but it sure looks promising), (2) the adduct formed doesn't match predictions - imo it's fairly likely to form in-vivo which implies grossly subjective rxn conditions, or (3) your expectations are off-base/inaccurate.

...which goes against the idea that this can likely happen in highly watery mixtures like sherry wine, but the underlying chemistry is 100% real.

I don't think vector considered that the rxn might be occurring in-vivo, but he did assert that "the underlying chemistry is 100% real".

Personally, I've already moved on to other areas of interest. I'm specifically interested in the conversion of the hemiacetal LSH (from fresh seeds) into a stable acetal.

Tbh I'd be most interested in getting answers as to why cinnamaldehyde & cuminaldehyde produce such disparate effects. I used to be in contact with user flickedbic who's described his experiences in various places, specifically using cinnamon and cumin cwe. Following vecktors reasoning, the rxn must be occurring in-vivo. Likewise with sherry wine which is favoured due to it's elevated acetaldehyde content.

 

[Skorpio]

It's claimed LSH stability requires acidic <ph4 conditions.

If your blood had a pH of 4 you would be extremely dead. And sour.

I am in agreement with a long-term user from dmt-nexus who speculated that whatever is happening might be occurring in-vivo. Quoting his his post:




I've been calling it isopentanal (3-methylbutanal); it seems to be present in barley grains – specifically in fermented drinks – alongside others like isobutanal & 2-methylbutanal. The literature seen thus far indicates small amounts as Skorpio has highlighted.

I want to make my quote clear- the reported concentration of aldehydes is a thousand to a million fold too low to match the stoichiometry of LSA molecules

 

[Allylbenzene]

It's claimed LSH stability requires acidic <ph4 conditions.

If your blood had a pH of 4...

Like I wrote, claimed – and I was referring to in-vitro adduct stability only. What truly happens with these so-called fragile adducts in-vivo is unknown but that doesn't stop speculation. Likewise with the ongoing debate re ALD-52 and LSD.

I want to make my quote clear- the reported concentration of aldehydes is a thousand to a million fold too low to match the stoichiometry of LSA molecules

I see reports which assessed unfermented barley of unknown storage quality. Looking at the original Kykeon drink it contained barley water, likely fermented (possibly via dairy as we see mentions of added cheese re lactobacteria). It's interesting that fermented barley drinks experience increased aldehyde %, and likewise alcohols too (which as we know are turned into aldehydes by the ADH enzyme).

With focus on the Eleusinian one, its components are given as water, mint, and barley.
...
Ergot-infected barley is considered the most probable candidate among the hypothesized psychoactive ingredients in kykeon, as it aligns with the Hymn’ ingredients, plausible pharmacology and archeological findings. (source)

— and if the reports you refer to indeed assessed fermented barley, did the barley originate from the same location used by those making the original Kykeon drink? Because this affects the final product & composition:

...different batches of cereal raw materials such as barley...harbor distinct microbial community structures, which can lead to variations in fermentation performance and final product quality (source)

I think the quote below exemplifies how attitudes like user Didgital employ short-sighted hot-tempered arrogance to obfuscate & hinder exploration; and try and tell someone like Dr. Nichols not to explore something "because".

This raises a critical and still unanswered question: If ergot was indeed an active component of the kykeon, by what means did the ancient Eleusinian priestesses manage to harness its psychoactive potential while avoiding its devastating toxic effects? The answer to this lies in forgotten methods of preparation, precise dosing and the presence of synergistic or detoxifying agents; possibilities modern science has yet to explore. (source)

 

[Didgital]

Imo this thread has good info/discussion so deleting it entirely seems rash. Instead it would seem preferable to simply edit tregars posts as necessary. This also keeps the skepticism visible, particularly yours which I think everyone should get a chance to see don't you think?

I really don't care if my words get preserved regarding most things. I've always said BL is more useful when one doesn't have to wade through pages of misinformation to find a kernel of truth. Most of the other threads in other fourms that Tregar's top amazon reviewer points to... have since been deleted.

I'm cool with putting a disclaimer on every Tregar post tho too..

 

[Allylbenzene]

I really don't care if my words get preserved regarding most things.

I think people should see your "behaviour" tbh.

Most of the other threads in other fourms that Tregar's top amazon reviewer points to... have since been deleted.

Are you sure? The threads are still there (besides the Shaman Australis site being down) ...what are you smoking? (and can I have some?)

I'm cool with putting a disclaimer on every Tregar post tho too.

Maybe putting one on yours would be equally reasonable.

 

[Quantamide]

It is obvious that some either haven't got good seeds or questionable barley grass or not using tartaric acid or don't have a stirrer. Or all of the above . I can atest that Tregar's formula works exactly as described. I was quiet shocked as LSA is not hallucinogenic like this concoction is and further there is NO sedative effect or next day hangover of any kind. After glow is real .

“I will never do LSA by itself ever again ..this is the way”. I have done it twice now. Like a combo of LSD and Mescaline .. but the lack of negative effects does make it more preferable , peaks in 3 hours w/all the kaleidescope flickering etc. no problem falling asleep , not as prolonged as mescaline and not as frenzied as LSD..it sits in between, and is over in 12 hours.

Color me IMPRESSED The best way to take LSA no doubt.


All the amide/aldehyde papers are spot on and even (e.g., Arcamone 1961 onLSA in fermented liquor forming LSH) so this begs the question on why some, are so angry? They didn't get off , or there is no way to package something that happens in your body and can't be sold , professional jealousy.Forum derangement syndrome (FDS)


Enjoy the research..I am, Tregars discovery of Barley Grass used in these preperations is siesmic stuff ...Mainstream science is behind the curve when it comes to barley grass fermentation In the meantime here are a couple of pics of how 24 HBWR in a solution of 90% ethanol looks like.

I call this the T20M (Tregars 20 minute extraction) You Must use a Stirrer !!!

LSA /90%ethanol evaporating..note the glow 365nm uV

LSA in a Jar..note the ergometrine ring giving that xtra glow , common in lysergic solutions 365 nm uv

 

[Allylbenzene]

Tregars discovery of Barley Grass used in these preperations

I'm inclined to think the original kykeon drink used barley grains, not grass; but it could've been both, we don't actually know. Barley beverages are commonly made using fermented grains (eg beer).

With focus on the Eleusinian one, its components are given as water, mint, and barley.
...
Ergot-infected barley is considered the most probable candidate among the hypothesized psychoactive ingredients in kykeon, as it aligns with the Hymn’ ingredients, plausible pharmacology and archeological findings. (source)

Fermentation is one of the oldest known food processing methods and its history stretches back to the Neolithic period, as indicated by archaeological findings of clay tools for cheese making. (source)

Koji fermentation produces a wide range of flavor-active compounds, including esters, aldehydes, alcohols, phenols, and furans...depending on the fungal strain and fermentation conditions.

Koji’s role in Japanese fermented beverages mirrors that of malt in beer production... (source)

The relevance to fermented barley is the Strecker degradation of amino acids to aldehydes, eg leucine → isopentanal (isovaleraldehyde, 3-methylbutanal).

Barley grass contains many amino acids:

Studies have shown that cultivated young green barley has different levels of amino acids...depending on the harvest time. (source)

Barley grass contains 20 amino acids...especially 8 essential amino acids. (source)

Barley-derived beer also contains aldehydes:

Flavor instability of beer is affected by the rise of aroma-active aldehydes during aging. Aldehydes can be...formed de novo. ...during the Maillard reaction, Strecker degradation, and oxidation reactions. Key precursor compounds for de novo pathways are free amino acids. (source)

Any alcohols produced via fermentation will also be converted to aldehydes via the ADH enzyme (infamously ethanol → ethanal).

Acids (eg tartaric) are also increased by fermentation:

Organic acids are important flavor compounds in traditional fermented foods
...
Volatile acids include formic acid, acetic acid, propionic acid, butyric acid, 3-methylbutyric acid, valeric acid, and caproic acid... Non-volatile acids include lactic acid, tartaric acid, citric acid, malic acid, succinic acid, and fumaric acid (source)

...
Of course someone might find the notion of in-vivo adduct formation to be an "impasse".

All of the papers provided which quantify the aldehyde content in barley demonstrate levels far too low to stoichiometric-ly react with the LSA molecules.

It seems one should also consider amino acid & alcohol content, not just aldehydes. Also that barley grass powders are made from concentrated juice, not merely powdered material. Afaik the reports didn't analyse concentrated barley juice nor was it fermented. This precludes any conclusions that barley isn't suitable.​

 

[Didgital]

Maybe putting one on yours would be equally reasonable.

totally fine with that. Really not sure why you care so much that I distrust tregar. You take every chance you can at this point, and I suppose I'm not really listening anymore even if your not a shill. But yeah keep parroting Tregar's bullshit. Fine by me.

 

[Didgital]

It is obvious that some either haven't got good seeds or questionable barley grass or not using tartaric acid or don't have a stirrer. Or all of the above . I can atest that Tregar's formula works exactly as described. I was quiet shocked as LSA is not hallucinogenic like this concoction is and further there is NO sedative effect or next day hangover of any kind. After glow is real .

“I will never do LSA by itself ever again ..this is the way”. I have done it twice now. Like a combo of LSD and Mescaline .. but the lack of negative effects does make it more preferable , peaks in 3 hours w/all the kaleidescope flickering etc. no problem falling asleep , not as prolonged as mescaline and not as frenzied as LSD..it sits in between, and is over in 12 hours.

Color me IMPRESSED The best way to take LSA no doubt.


All the amide/aldehyde papers are spot on and even (e.g., Arcamone 1961 onLSA in fermented liquor forming LSH) so this begs the question on why some, are so angry? They didn't get off , or there is no way to package something that happens in your body and can't be sold , professional jealousy.Forum derangement syndrome (FDS)


Enjoy the research..I am, Tregars discovery of Barley Grass used in these preperations is siesmic stuff ...Mainstream science is behind the curve when it comes to barley grass fermentation In the meantime here are a couple of pics of how 24 HBWR in a solution of 90% ethanol looks like.

I call this the T20M (Tregars 20 minute extraction) You Must use a Stirrer !!!

LSA /90%ethanol evaporating..note the glow 365nm uV

LSA in a Jar..note the ergometrine ring giving that xtra glow , common in lysergic solutions 365 nm uv

Yeah this is absolutely shill post right here. I feel like if I looked around at other threads, I can find tregar quotes that use the EXACT words used in this post. Is it just an attempt to bump the thread so it gets more visibility?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Maybe putting one [disclaimer] on yours would be equally reasonable.

totally fine with that. Really not sure why you care so much that I distrust tregar.

That's not the reason for my choice to reliably point out your incessant short-sightedness and tendency for pseudo-schizophrenic qualities. That you divulged previous HPPD highlights mental health & perceptual (dis)coherence. I think it's reasonable for this to be included in your disclaimer.

I already had to get over HPPD where blue skies looked liked plasctic smily faces for years.

But yeah keep parroting Tregar's bullshit. Fine by me.

As I wrote previously, you don't even know what my position is. You just assume and blunder. I'm actually parroting Kash and various academics who know a lot more about Kykeon & Soma than either of us combined. Tbh at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you claimed that Kash too was tregar.

 

[JackARoe]

Temp shut down. I will open it again but between all the post reporting from a LOT of people, disagreements and alt accounts my own head is spinning while reading. Let's digest what we have, then maybe go forward on the topic. The biggest reason for a temp shut down is alt account disruptions. I am not calling anyone out but make a general statement. While I don't know who the culprits are Didgital is on to something that should have a light shined on it. It is making BL look embarrassing. All BL needs is facts and info on the topic. And people who have alt accounts c'mon. Just put your info out on one account.

For a while it was ok, specific pieces intelligently challenged. The alt accounts and some nonsense I can't put my finger on entered and my head hurts.

We have to open this thread again because we want the update from NIchols.

And then I will ask if I took LSI would I have a trip similar to Morning Glory Seeds. Or we don't know yet. Think on it.