Opioids Long way from methadone to suboxone

[Migoda]

Dear friends,

I desperately need some medical info as well as yours expiriences. I was one year at tramadol and wanted to quit, so I was taking 2 mg od Methatone each evening so I could get clean. I got clean very easy in 5 days.

But then, I liked methadone, slowly was taking more and more, so now I am surely 3 months on Methadone with some days as break. During this time I was able to take 5 mg, 10 mg, or any other dosage I wanted. Before, long before, I was heroin addict, so maybe now I can still take as much as I want and it doesn't give me any problems because my tolerance was destroyed with my heroin addiction from before (this before was more then 30 years before)

Anyway, I was able to take whole bottle, no matter how much I had, I would take it. So that is why I don't know on which dose exactly am I. One week ago I was taking almost every day, not counting drops, but day would always finish with empty entire botle of meth (10 mg)

Then I decided that I don't want to get addicted that much that I could never go back, and stopped last friday. During withdrawals I was talking tramadol, it was still difficult and very uncomfortable. Yesterday, after 7 days I was so tired, my stomach couldn't take any more of tramadol, so I relapsed and drank entire bottle of meth again.

I was 7 days clean in order to take suboxon after 10 days, but now, all of it seems in vein. I am so disappointed in myself and depressed this Christmas morning. I don't know any facts about my situation. On how much am I addicted now, why I am able to take whole bottle just like that, what amount needs to leave my body in how many days so I can switch to suboxon.

Can anyone help. After all this mess how long I need to wait until I can safely take suboxone. I can not visit any doctor here, there are no experts on suboxone in my area.

Please help marrasa8(

 

[socio]

I'm no medical expert, but in answer to what seeems your biggest worry: I don't think it's as bad as you think or that you are "that badly addicted." Just my opinion, although addicted (or physically dependent) is still addicted/dependent.

You really should try to get medical supervision for this if at all possible. I would guess you are at a totally manageable point and could achieve a very positive result with a little medical attention (as in, getting off of all opioid drugs like methadone successfully -- or back onto strictly therapeutic usage of pain medicine if you need that). Assuming that's what you want.

That said...

Do you already have the Suboxone or are you hoping to get prescribed (I'm confused about that)?

If you are only taking 10mg or less of methadone, I would think you could safely start taking Suboxone somewhere between 36 and 72 hours after you last dose of methadone (probably less). If you can last 7 days without a dose, then, wow that is easily long enough to jump onto suboxone -- and much longer than necessary. I would say that even 3 days after your last 10mg dose of methadone you would have VERY LITTLE risk of trouble when you start suboxone.

I can't say for sure, since everyone's different, and I'm no doctor -- just speaking from my own experience with these two drugs (over the past 10 years) and what I've read. But the "official" guidelines for switching from methadone to suboxone recommend getting down to 30mg of methadone (stabilizing on that dose for 2 weeks), then stopping and waiting 72 hours after the last 30mg dose before starting suboxone. So you should be easily in the clear if you're on 10mg and can go for days w/out a dose.

At your dose & with your history, you could probably take very little suboxone (maybe less than 1mg), and do so only once every couple days. You're on a pretty low dose and can stand to go days without. I think you will be able to get off it.

Also, you should consider something besides suboxone, since that is an opioid as well and causes withdrawal syndrome similar to methadone (at least consider taking suboxone in very low doses only every 2nd or 3rd day, then drop your dose and extend the interval between doses until you are off after a few weeks). At your levels of use, and after only 3 months, you might be able to detox with just some loperamide (aka Imodium) or even without any opiates -- especially if you're under medical supervision and on clonidine, benzodiazepines.

 

[Migoda]

Dear Socio

Thanx for immidiate reply

I felt much better after reading your post, the only thing I got worried is that I maybe mixed up meassures of methadone.

Let me tell you how I meassure it, and please tell me if this is correct way.

I am having methadone glass bottles seald and closed in the pharmacy. This bottle has 320 drops of methadone, and that is 10 mg. So 30 drops is 1 mg of methadone. Now I am on one whole bottle, that is 10 mg, that is 320 drops.

So now I am confused, I also red articles that you can take suboxone with no wories if you are on 30 to 40 mg of methadone. I just checked on my bottle it says definitely 10 mg full botlle.

So, do you have any clue where is the mistake here?
I don't know on wich amount am I, at all.8)

Marrasa

 

[socio]

Thanx for immidiate reply

No prob!

I just checked on my bottle it says definitely 10 mg full botlle.

So, do you have any clue where is the mistake here?
I don't know on wich amount am I, at all.

This is the big issue. Definitely you need to find out.
If you are correct and it's 10mg in a whole bottle, then you are in an ok situation for going onto Suboxone.
If you are mistaken about the 10mg in a full bottle, and you take suboxone too soon, you could be in real trouble!
I don't know enough about liquid methadone dosages to say.

If it's a manufacturer's vial, or if it's still got the pharmacy label on it from when it was dispensed, then you can certainly find out how much methadone is in the bottle. You could:
(1) look it up on the internet, if you can read some manufacturer's drug code or NDIC code (I think it's called?) on the bottle (for example, websites like www.drugs.com, I think);
(2) call the pharmacy where it was dispensed and ask them (or even another pharmacy);
(3) call poison control and ask them.
You could probably do any of those things to find out without worrying about anyone calling the police or trying to take the bottle away from you. I definitely wouldn't worry about making a phone call (they want people to have accurate information at poision control, so they don't try to mess with people as a rule, unless you call and say something like "I just took an OD of morphine in a suicide attempt").
If the bottle came from a methadone clinic, then it's a little different. But that doesn't sound like what you have.
It does sound like you are getting 10mg total in the bottle. But since you are uncertain, I would double-check using one of those methods.
If you can find the drug code on the bottle, or some information like that, and post it here, I will also try to check back and maybe look them up quickly. (I have a good amount of experience identifying unknown pills & other pharmaceuticals so I can do it quickly most of time.)\


EDIT-- One thing I forgot to say: Be sure you're not mixing up MG and ML -- milligrams and milliliters. I've never heard of a liquid medication reading X number of mg's per drop; usually it says how many mg per mL. But I could be mistaken about that, just something I haven't specifically heard of.

 

[Migoda]

Hi Socio

I will try to tell you all that I see on the bottle and package of methadone. It is really confusing.

It says that bottle is 10mg/ml

Then under that it says 10 ml

and 1 ml (30 drops) of liquid have 10 mg

I really feel stupid with reading all over again this informations. Does this mean.... 1ml = 30 drops = 10 mg

wich is what they say at the biggining 10mg / (per) 1ml????

uh, what do you think?

I take whole bottle, so much I take peopleeeeeeeee help?

 

[socio]

Okay, DON'T TAKE SUBOXONE RIGHT NOW! That changes most of what I said above. I think you should talk to a doctor.

From what you just posted, it sounds like you are taking 100 milligrams a day. If it is 10mg/ml, and it is a 10ml bottle, then the bottle is 100mg (10ml x 10mg). Earlier you thought you were taking 5-10mg of methadone daily, but it sounds like 50-100mg per day.

You would probably need to get under 30mg of methadone a day (in other words, splitting one of those bottles up over 3-4 days). Then keep doing that for a few weeks. Then go completely off for about 3 days (at least) before starting suboxone. You will be much safer doing this through a methadone clinic or some kind of medical doctor.

It's only been 3 months, so you might be able to get back down to 20-30mg per day or lower if you start soon. The sooner you start lowering your dose the better.

If you go onto Suboxone too soon you will risk the side-effect that is most feared: "precipitated withdrawal." It's like cramming all your withdrawal into a few hours. I don't think it can kill you (maybe if you have other health conditions; I believe it can cause miscarriage in pregnancy). But having been through precipitated withdrawal myself, I can say that it will probably be one of the most unpleasant things you've experienced and you will likely end up calling 911 . Do not take that risk.

I would also be concerned with the fact that you didn't know your dosage. This could easily lead to an overdose (possibly death if no one found you in time) if you made the wrong calculation. Or, what if you actually are only taking 10mg per day like we thought at first? If you were actually on 10, but then took 100 in a day because the methadone came in a different form, you would probably end up in the hospital or worse.

On how much am I addicted now, why I am able to take whole bottle just like that, what amount needs to leave my body in how many days so I can switch to suboxon.

You can take the whole bottle of methadone because your tolerance has increased. Almost anyone who keeps taking opioid drugs like methadone on a regular basis CAN develop a tolerance like this.

I think you really should try to get some medical help before switching to suboxone if you can in any way. If you were only taking a few milligrams per day like we thought at first, then it wouldn't be a very difficult situation. But you're actually taking 100mg a day, it sounds like. It sounds like you don't have a lot experience with different kinds of serious drugs like this, which is another reason to see a doctor. If you were someone who had taken lots of drugs for a long time and had been in and out of withdrawal from methadone, heroin, suboxone, etc., then I think you might be able to work something out yourself. I'm not a medical professional, and I wouldn't try to say how to get off of 100mg of methadone.

Don't despair! You are by no means the only person in the world taking this much methadone (lots of people take much more in fact), and you won't be the first to get off of it. Many people have done it successfully before you. In your favor, you haven't been taking it too long. And you've started asking questions on here, which will help. This is certainly a problem you can handle if you are careful.

 

[stuckinaloop]

Sounds lke a full bottle i.e. 10ml= 10x10=100mg methadone.

I switched over from 80mg methadone to 12mg buprenorphine PAINLESSLY.

You can either wait 4 days then dose your sub, or switch to a short acting opiate for 3-4 days then wait 24-36 hours hten dose sub (I chose this route..which literally made thte switch fuckin painless I can't stress that enough).

 

[jamesBrown]

one answer.....

....cold turkey.

10 mg's of methadone is NOTHING(im sry, im not trying to belittle what your going through).
But its true, 10mg's of done is like a couple vics or something. Going cold turkey would only last a few days tops, and it wouldnt be very painful either. But you are free to do what you want.
I wish you luck.

 

[benzico]

If you are taking 10mg of methadone only then get on the suboxen after 24 hours of last dose of meth. drinking a whole bottle of methadone means to me drinking 500mg so be careful what you say.

 

[socio]

one answer.....

....cold turkey.

10 mg's of methadone is NOTHING(im sry, im not trying to belittle what your going through).
But its true, 10mg's of done is like a couple vics or something. Going cold turkey would only last a few days tops, and it wouldnt be very painful either. But you are free to do what you want.
I wish you luck.

If you are taking 10mg of methadone only then get on the suboxen after 24 hours of last dose of meth. drinking a whole bottle of methadone means to me drinking 500mg so be careful what you say.

Both of you -- read on a couple. (See post 5.) She (I think "she") is actually taking 100mg a day. The bottles she takes are 10ml, and 10mg/ml.

 

[jamesBrown]

Both of you -- read on a couple. (See post 5.) She (I think "she") is actually taking 100mg a day. The bottles she takes are 10ml, and 10mg/ml.

Oh I see now. She just didnt understand the way it was dosed and therefore wrote a very confusing post.
OP...please read very carefully the bottle of whatever drug you choose to take, because dosing problems are one of the main issues with overdosing, and it also confuses other posters on BL when you ask for advice and dont even understand what dose you are taking....we could very easily give you horrible advice based on your incorrect post. Im not being mean or anything, im just saying, for your own safety, please know before you post.

 

[Migoda]

NOT 10 mg BUT 100 mg - ALL READERS PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE MISTAKE IN FIRST POST

Dear friends,

I thank you all so much, specially Socio for really giving a lot of effort to understand my case and suggest the best possible advice. Sorry to others, if I new it all I wouldn't be writing here. Yes I was confused.

Thank you Socio again, it seems you are right. I was taking 100 mg. Good thing about this is that I was not doing it every day. Few days in a row then 3 days pause. I guess this also helps. I am very much encouraged Socio by your last post you send to me.

I tried 3 days ago to take only 40 mg when cold turkey hit me. 40 mg took away all my discomfort, I was not feeling 'hi' at all, I was just normal. It was like that 17 hours, and cold turkey begun again.

I think the best way to go is what Socio said and I am gonne try to do that from now on. When I get to next withdrawal I will take 40 again, and try to tapper down slowly.

I have one question regarding this. I heard it is important to take dose on certain time a day. If I don't need dose one whole day, should I wait until I need one? Or, I should take dose at specific time? If I do that, should I split dose in two (like 20 mg morning, 15 evening) and tapper it down slowly this way? And what would be the best dynamic for tappering it down (taking 5 mg off every second or third day, or how)?

I think once I have these answers I am on a right way, praise God!

I appreciate so much all of your help, what I would do without you

Looking sssooo much forward to your answers

Marrasa

 

[socio]

Hi Marrasa,

Here comes a long post!!!

Good to hear from! I'm glad to see you back -- I was getting worried about you! But it sounds like you're doing well, and I'm happy for you.

I should say, I'm not that experienced with getting off of methadone (I'm still on it!), but a lot of people on this forum are.

Hopefully someone with more experience than me at quitting methadone will read your experience and give advice that is better-informed than mine. But I'll give you my best advice -- limited as it is. My first suggestion would be to get advice from other people, too, and keep what's most useful!

... I was taking 100 mg. Good thing about this is that I was not doing it every day. Few days in a row then 3 days pause. I guess this also helps. I am very much encouraged Socio by your last post you send to me.

I tried 3 days ago to take only 40 mg when cold turkey hit me. 40 mg took away all my discomfort, I was not feeling 'hi' at all, I was just normal. It was like that 17 hours, and cold turkey begun again.

I think the best way to go is what Socio said and I am gonne try to do that from now on. When I get to next withdrawal I will take 40 again, and try to tapper down slowly.

Great! That does sound encouraging, and I am very glad to hear that you are finding this helpful. It is great that you can stick to 40 a day right now, and that you were taking days off.

Methadone does build up in your blood over a few days when you take it every day, and, in the same way, when you cut down it takes a few days to realize if you're cutting too fast. I hope you can keep this up (taking only 40), and I think you probably can.

Don't be discouraged if you have to go back up to 50 for a little while, though -- that could be a natural turn of events at the start of cutting back. You're still figuring out your "stable dose" after all, since you weren't taking it consistently.

What you're doing sounds good to me so far, though. And you sound motivated to stick with it, which is great. That motivation is something I don't happen to have, so good for you!

I have one question regarding this. I heard it is important to take dose on certain time a day. If I don't need dose one whole day, should I wait until I need one? Or, I should take dose at specific time?

Actually, for you, I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Most people take it at the same time because the dose starts to wear off in about 24 hours for MOST people. But it's different for everyone.

At the clinic they always want people to take it at the same time every day when they are trying to MAINTAIN ON A STEADY DOSE.

But you are trying to cut down. It's still fine to take it at the same time every day. There's no rush. You'll be making progress over weeks and months -- slow and steady -- and eventually you won't believe how far you've gotten.

You don't have to do this, but if you can go a bit longer without starting to feel ill, I don't think it will hurt. So you could wait more than 24 hours, I think, without it being a problem, as long as you feel okay.

Most people don't do it that way. But... If you take it at, say, 9AM today, but don't feel you need it until 12PM tomorrow, and 3PM the next day, then that means you are actually cutting your dose even faster. Just don't push it too far, though. Slow and steady is great, as long as you're making a little progress. Cutting just a couple milligrams every 2 weeks is still progress.

Think about it this way: There are two components to your level of use.
1: How much you take each time (right now, 40MG).
2: How often you take it (usually, every 24 hours).

If you can decrease the dose that is progress;
if you can INCREASE the interval, or how long you wait, that is progress.
Just be careful -- if you cut the dose too fast, or wait too long, you might feel sick.
You don't want that to happen because you will become vulnerable to making a bad decision and taking a bunch all at once and losing some of your progress.
Slow and steady!

When getting off methadone, remember, slow and steady wins the race!

(This is why most people need a doctor or clinic's help. But some people do make it on their own. Keeping in touch on here is a great idea to get the support you'll need since it sounds like you may not share this with many people in your personal life--or do you?)

what would be the best dynamic for tappering it down (taking 5 mg off every second or third day, or how)?

That sounds kinda fast to me. I think if you could drop 5 mg every 2-3 weeks, then you should feel very good about that. If you're baseline right now is 40 or 50mg to feel okay, then I think you'd be doing great if you could get completely off in anywhere from 3 to 6 months (in other words drop 1 or 2 mg a week). (I know that may sound like a long time, but it's best to go slowly, since the psychological aspects of withdrawal can sneak up on you, even if you're not physically hurting.) But, to be honest, you'll be the best judge of that. It's all about what you are comfortable with. If you make yourself feel sick, you will have a hard time keeping it up. Who knows -- maybe you can go faster than that.

Even more insidious may be the depression. You might not realize it's coming from the methadone, but as you drop the dose, you may find your mood is getting worse. That's why it's really important to stay involved in positive activities--friends, family, social groups, church, whatever you do. Exercise or any physical activity that you are fit enough for -- that will be a tremendous help! Eat well, drink fluids, stay away from alcohol. Do things to be happy.

Read as much as you can on websites like this one about withdrawal, recovery, sobriety.

I think once I have these answers I am on a right way, praise God!

I appreciate so much all of your help, what I would do without you

Looking sssooo much forward to your answers

Marrasa

You have a great attitude and you're on the right track! Keep in touch and let us know how you're doing. (If it gets difficult, that's especially when you need to stay in touch!) But I think you'll be there before you know it! Good luck, and I hope to hear back from you soon.
--Socio


P.s. I almost forgot that you were thinking about Suboxone before. I would suggest getting down to 30-40mg a day for at least two weeks before getting ready for the switch. And then, try to get a few people's advice on here first, since it can be a little tricky. I wouldn't do it just yet -- not until I'd been down under 40 for a couple weeks. Once again, keep in touch!

 

[fakenamedotcom]

there really are not many experts on suboxone..all a doctor needs is a license, and the way to get that license is to answer a little test that most addicts who do there extensive research can ace.

the experts are us.

 

[DexterMeth]

FYI, I've been fully clean off suboxone for like 10 days now

Great posts socio

 

[killroy134]

I also kicked methadone by using Suboxone. It is a miracle drug, truly. It is different than any other opiate. As you step down you don't really crave getting high anymore and it completely takes away withdrawal. I went to an intensive outpatient program for 9 weeks with therapy and Suboxone for about 9 months. I have been clean for 18 months now and never looked back. PM me if you need any advice or support!

 

[killroy134]

Oh and also when stepping down form Suboxone I started at 16 mg a day for 1 month, then every two weeks I would cut my dose in half. I would withdrawal for about 1 day and then feel completely fine. Each time my dose was halved I felt better and better. I felt like I was coming back to life. I went through the whole process and never missed a day of work.

 

[Migoda]

Dear Socio and friends,

I did not write for a while....although I need you all as support. When I am on my own I do stupid things, such as today. Instead of staying on my tapering down way and take 50 mg of methadone, I took 100 mg again. I was so feeling down, I wanted to forget about reality a while, no antidepressants seemed to be working. I think if I could only have a friend that can constantly encourage me it would be much better. I don't want to hang out with friends that are addicted on methadone, other people, I can not tell them, so the friendship is shallow.

The way to suboxone seems to be so long. I have a friend who is offering to send me some medications based on morphine that is used to taper down methadone fast. Maybe you know what that could be and should I accept it. Maybe you guys can help somehow...aaaaa I feel like going crazy..

Anyway, need you, your letters Socio, seems to be so encouraging although you sometimes act as Sergent in army (lol). I am jocking but I love when you write....

looking forward if you have some new ideas...I cant wait anymore people....

lots of hugs

 

[Migoda]

what kind of short acting opiate

Sounds lke a full bottle i.e. 10ml= 10x10=100mg methadone.

I switched over from 80mg methadone to 12mg buprenorphine PAINLESSLY.

You can either wait 4 days then dose your sub, or switch to a short acting opiate for 3-4 days then wait 24-36 hours hten dose sub (I chose this route..which literally made thte switch fuckin painless I can't stress that enough).

Hi,

I saw your reply and was glad you did it as easy as you said. Wonderful! Now I am reading again and have some questions, maybe it can help me know more details.

What short acting opiates, pills or painkiller were you taking during those 4 days before going to sub?

12 mg of suboxone, is it one, two or how many tablets. Sorry I don't understand quantity side of the suboxone. I have them in a foil, without info leaflet, so I only have to cut it. How much tablets is 12 mg.

Thanx so much

 

[socio]

Anyway, need you, your letters Socio, seems to be so encouraging although you sometimes act as Sergent in army (lol). I am jocking but I love when you write....

Hahaha, I know what you mean, that's cool. I can't really say anything because I take more methadone than I'm supposed to all the time, and have to pay the price later. Don't get caught up feeling guilty about taking 100mg again, just keep looking forward, and remember your goal and that you haven't been on this stuff for too long yet. It will take a little time and be hard, but you can still get off or at least find something that will work for you.

What you were saying about the Suboxones -- as far as I know they only come in 2mg pills and 8mg pills. So hopefully you have the big 8mg ones. Do your pillis look like one of these (the 2mg ones are tiny, like half as big as a Tic-Tac, but you can tell because they should say 8 or 2 on them):

You might want to check out the Suboxone Mega Thread, though it's kinda long and is now on Version 11, it's got a lot of information about that stuff:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=537892
Maybe you can start posting in some other threads like that as well, since a lot people will read that and maybe give you more ideas about how to make the transition.
How much suboxone do you have?

What you were saying about your friend giving you some other drug that's shorter-acting, and the other poster was saying (stuckinaloop) -- a lot of people have done that, basically because you have to be in withdrawal before you jump onto suboxone or it will be way worse, so something like Dilaudid (aka hydromorphone) or morphine which is faster-acting, if you stay on that for 3-4 days first, then go off of it for about 3 days, you might have an easier time getting onto suboxone.

Have you considered looking for any resources where you live to help you, like a detox center, methadone clinic, or addiction doctor? You might be able to find someone in your community who can work with you and give you some help.