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Opioids long term opioid dependancy --> decrease in intellect and memory?

tathra

Bluelighter
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Messages
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some yandere's basement
this is something i've noticed in a few people who have had an opioid dependancy for many years, and i'm wondering if its an exception, or a rule.

these people were (and actually still are) incredibly intelligent, with excellent memories, but after a few years, both decline quite significantly.

to anyone who has had an opioid dependancy for several years, either recreational or doctor-ordered, have you noticed a decline in memory, intelligence, or even attention span compared to before you started using?

since opioids affect secondary neurological processes adversely, if it turns out that this effect is generalized, it could eventually help lead to a better understanding of how both work.
 
I've been on opiates for 5 years. Starting with vicodin and landing on buprenorphine for the last 2+.

I went from barely graduating high school to going to a private university for engineering. Now i'm not saying the opiates did this, i'm mostly saying that buprenorphine has given me the ability to have a normal mindset and quality of life that has enabled me to live normally and make good decisions.

But i will say that if they did decrease intelligence etc that i would not be where i am currently.
 
buprenorphine, being a partial agonist, could further prove this hypothesis. if prolonged use of opiate agonists lead to a decrease in memory/intellect, it could also be true that opiate antagonists (including partial antagonists) could increase, or at least restore one to their pre-dependancy state.
 
buprenorphine, being a partial agonist, could further prove this hypothesis. if prolonged use of opiate agonists lead to a decrease in memory/intellect, it could also be true that opiate antagonists (including partial antagonists) could increase, or at least restore one to their pre-dependancy state.

This is possible, although i believe that the junkie lifestyle is by far the most damaging factor in opiate addiction.

I mean, take Suboxone for example, you remove scoring, unstable monetary situations, tolerance issues, craving (if properly dosed), IV use (assuming the naloxone actually did anything), and you are left with a dependence to a fairly benign substance as far as health issues go.

People are left with nothing but time to make a better life for themselves.

My only qualms are with the manufacturers themselves and the dosing of the medication pushed by doctors.

If what you say turns out to be true...it would just add to my belief that it's a miracle drug. But here i am rambling again...
 
5 or 6 years on opiates, also now on bupe maintenence.

No, I don't think it has led to any decrease in memory or intellect... Unless you mean while the user is "nodding", in that case yes of course memory, intellect, conscienceness.. all out the window.
 
Chronic Cocaine use has been proven to cause mild memory problems akin to alzheimer yet reversible.

but for short i don't think opiates are the same , some might cause cognite effciency to decrease while they are present in the body in significant amounts , Morphine comes to mind with it's strange effect profile (dissassociation for instance)
 
Ever read about the Opioid Excess Theory? It's a theory that has to do with opioid receptors causing hormonal and/or neurological deficiencies because certain pain (mu, kappa, etc) receptors release chemicals/hormones/etc in the brain that are affected by an excess of opioids (whether natural in the brain or otherwise) which can lead to autism. Infact, they have done experiments where they gave autistic children naltrexone with positive results.

I'm no expert on the concept and i'm not 100% sure that external opioids, ones not created in the brain, that can lead to autism/asperger behaviors/thought processing but it does explain dopiate's grasp on engineering concepts if he was on opiates at the time, especially if he was male. Autistic/AS men are far more technical thinkers and often become engineers, mathematicians, scientistis, etc than autistic women (though this is not absolute).

Link: http://www.healing-arts.org/children/autism-overview.htm

Ps... i wouldn't say that opiates diminish their intellect but rather interrupt their brains social function... and as i said before i am no expect but i will go as far as to suspect, at the most, very mild Asperger syndrome-like thought processing and social interaction. But certainly not stupidity.
However i did talk to someone about this and they suggested that external opiates affecting the brain had no significant affect on this... though it makes no sense to me considering the fact that if opioid receptors are affected causing changed function in those receptors' chemical/neural activity you would think that opiate use would cause significant result in causing autism-like behavior/thought processing.
 
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I had the best semester in my whole college experience (GPA-wise) when I was using heroin: 2 A's, 1 B, 1 C. I have never gotten such high grades.

I don't think opiates effect your intelligence or memory at all. I think that your mind is something you must continually use, and if you get caught up in sitting around a mirror 24/7, then yeah, you might just let your intellect go to waste. But, I was able to use in a way that allowed me to not "nod out" but just be comfortably high, and I did well in college as a result and it reflected so.

I was also using a lot of psychedelics at the time too.

All of this leads me to believe opiates do not effect your memory at all.

What can effect your memory, as bingeboy said, is chronic cocaine use. Also, chronic use of benzodiazepines or alcohol or any other GABAergic drug is probably the worst.
 
Opiates alter my ability to remember shit if I'm reeeaaaaly high when it happened, & eventually it's either reeeaaaaly high or reeeaaaaly sick.

My (ex)girlfriend was desperately frustrated by my inability to remember simple things that happened, like where some gifts came from, or where some things went (I was fucked up on christmas?mybirthday?her brithday?anniversary? of course. can't be sick on the important days) and a lot of pillow talk gets lost in the nods... but that stuff is usually half intoxicated with sleep and sex anyway...

So I'd say maybe indirectly opiates lead to memory loss. If you're high enough for long enough you'll forget a lot of what happened. Honestly, trying to remember the last three years of my life is really challenging.

Cannabis doesn't help.

As far as my ability to learn later when sober or on buprenorphine, it's pretty well unchanged. Cannabis really doesn't help though... lol.
 
Cannabis doesn't help.

As far as my ability to learn later when sober or on buprenorphine, it's pretty well unchanged. Cannabis really doesn't help though... lol.

Ya, i don't classify nodding out when you should be paying attention as memory problems.

Although, i smoked weed for a year straight pretty heavily and when i quit i couldn't believe how much better my brain worked.

I'm an advocate of marijuana in just about any form but it is not helpful to brain processes.
 
Look at somebody like Burroughs, he used for decades upon decades without diminshed capacity. I know it's one example but it's not my argument. The junky lifestyle is what fucks with people not the actual drug. Many people take PKs daily for years upon years and don't have this happen to them. It's basically prohibition that causes the problem more than the drugs.
 
it sounds as though the time spent dependant could be important, as both people in which i have seen this phenomenon have been dependant for ~11 years for one, and ~6 years for the other, and it wasnt something that was noticed until after at least 4-5 years; as for the "junkie lifestyle," only the first subject shot up but only had some of the 'junkie' characteristics; the other primarily insufflated and had none of the 'junkie' characteristics; you'd likely never know either used drugs at all unless they confessed, they took good care of themselves. of course its entirely possible they're exceptions, and thats what i'm trying to find out.

so lets tighten the criterea a bit... if you've been dependant for 5 or more years and are NOT on bupe maintenance, i'd like your input. also the primary opioid used could matter, as both subjects primarily use/abuse oxycodone, so i'd like to know the primarly opioid abused as well. perhaps the cause could be due to the stimulant effects of oc, since its suggested that stimulants will damage memory and intellect more than anything else... what makes the opioid hypothesis interesting is that, unlike stimulants, the damage from opioid use is indirect. my understanding is that with stimulants, what basically happens is that the receptors become permanantly downregulated from overstimulation, while opioids cause indirect damage; the g-coupled proteins that activate after receptor activation start to become uncoupled (ie, a receptor is activated, which causes it to release peptides inside the neuron, which then activate something else, and so on... this decreases from opioid dependancy; if i can find my book from my Drugs & Behavior class, i could better explain it), and if it turns out that this leads to a decrease in mental function as a rule rather than an exception, it'll help towards understanding how memory and intellegence actually work. if its just from of the stimulating effects of oxycodone though... well, it'll still help in some way because the mechanism of damage could be different from the classic, more neurotoxic cns stimulants. i'd really prefer that to not be the case, since that damage might not be reversable...

another thing: its well known that cannabis screws up your memory, since endogenous cannabinoids are used to regulate memory, so if you're a chronic marijuana smoker, you're exempt as well :)

i'd really like to refine this hypothesis and see where it leads. unfortunately its not really something that can be found out through experimentation, as making somebody get addicted to opioids for 5+ years is not only illegal, but unethical, so the only way to work it is through polls like this...
 
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i'd really like to refine this hypothesis and see where it leads. unfortunately its not really something that can be found out through experimentation, as making somebody get addicted to opioids for 5+ years is not only illegal, but unethical, so the only way to work it is through polls like this...

Shit, if you're paying for five years worth of oxycontin then just call me your lab rat!
 
Numerous studies have been done over the past 100+ years since the introduction of the hypodermic needle, extraction of Morphine from Opium, the semi-synthetics and synthetic opioids, in all of this time, I haven't seen one shred of evidence that long-term (meaning 10-60+ year dependancy) use and dependancy on opioids causes any detrimental physiological effects.

Prohibitionists throw around derogatory statements about longterm addicts/dependant persons, but there isn't any solid evidence to prove it, and a mountain of anecdotal evidence that it simply isn't true.
 
Don't discount the fact that after your teens your measurable cognitive functions appear to degrade naturally over time. That's not to say other factors like wisdom and knowledge don't more than make up for it over all.
 
tchort:
Acute effects of opioids on memory functions of healthy men and women
...
CONCLUSION: We conclude that these standard doses of opioids have only marginal effects on memory. If these findings can be extrapolated to patients with pain, then clinicians can feel confident in prescribing them on an outpatient basis without impacting on patients' daily functioning.

if 'standard' (ie low) doses have marginal effects over the course of 3 days, its quite possible that regular, heroic doses over the course of years can lead to significant impairment. and i know sure as shit that i dont know whether or not receptor desensitization caused by functional decoupling of receptors from G-proteins influences intelligence at all, since nobody knows for sure what actually determines a person's intelligence.

the fact remains that prolonged opioid use DOES cause neurological changes, its just a matter of figuring out if the changes are detrimental or not, or if its detrimental in some people, but not others. thats what i'm trying to figure out.
 
the fact remains that prolonged opioid use DOES cause neurological changes, its just a matter of figuring out if the changes are detrimental or not, or if its detrimental in some people, but not others. thats what i'm trying to figure out.

Those changes aren't permanent for the vast majority of people.

And I wouldn't say they are detrimental either.

The typical drugs which produce detrimental neurological changes would be alcohol, cocaine, amphetamines, and benzodiazepines (if taken frequently).
 
tchort:
Acute effects of opioids on memory functions of healthy men and women


if 'standard' (ie low) doses have marginal effects over the course of 3 days, its quite possible that regular, heroic doses over the course of years can lead to significant impairment. and i know sure as shit that i dont know whether or not receptor desensitization caused by functional decoupling of receptors from G-proteins influences intelligence at all, since nobody knows for sure what actually determines a person's intelligence.

the fact remains that prolonged opioid use DOES cause neurological changes, its just a matter of figuring out if the changes are detrimental or not, or if its detrimental in some people, but not others. thats what i'm trying to figure out.

If we are still talking in the realm of possibility, you are absolutely right that there may be opioid related neurological changes that can lead to dysfunction and/or damage- either in some percentage of the patient/addict/user pool, among a certain segment of that user pool (specific genetic traits that exist in general or seem to group in specific ethnic groups), etc.

A problem is the variety of opiates and opioids. There is such a drastic difference between different chemical 'families' that it may be one or more specific groups of opioids that lead to these changes and possible problems. I'd love to see if anyones done any work specifically on Demerol (Meperidine/Pethidine) in relation to a dependant patient or addicted persons neurology.

One bone to pick:

Opioid doses necessary for pain patients are not much different than those used by addicts.

In the case of Heroin addicts, I'd be willing to bet the farm that chronic pain patients (those subjected to opioid dependancy the most in medical practice) on average take higher daily doses of opioids than your average Heroin addict or illicit Rx opioid addict.

In practice, most Heroin addicts are only using 10mg-100mg mix of Diamorphine/6-Monoacetylmorphine/Morphine (the only strong opioids that comprise street Heroin) a day.

If you point to larger than average Heroin addicts (those who use 20-40 bags a day) I can point to far more chronic pain patients who, under a doctors supervision, take hundreds of milligrams of Morphine/Methadone/Oxycodone/etc a day.

But as far as significant or highly detrimental effects of opioids on subjective intelligence, memory, motor skills, etc something would have shown up a long time ago among the plethora of anecdotal evidence from lifelong opioid users.
 
The typical drugs which produce detrimental neurological changes would be alcohol, cocaine, amphetamines, and benzodiazepines (if taken frequently).

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to pick on you today, but AFAIK cocaine is not neurotoxic to dopamine and serotonin neurons like other psychostimulants are. Cocaine neurotoxicity if it is present is DEFINITELY not marked.
 
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