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Opioids long term opioid dependancy --> decrease in intellect and memory?

I have read that opiates adversely affect blood flow to the brain, especially over long periods of time (no online source, don't feel like digging up a ref.). Personally I have a hard time distinguishing damage from one drug over any other- I've had an extensive history of use/abuse. I can say without question that my creativity is negatively affected to a large degree; as a major of fine arts I associate this with both decreased access to my stored memories and inability to draw parallels (definitely got worse during opiate use)
-I think it is important to keep in consideration that by f'n around with one area of your brain and any specific neurotransmitters you're likely to throw the rest of it into imbalance which can cause innumerable issues. Also- the process of addiction, like that of depression or other psycho/physiological ailments leads to destruction of key ares of the brain. This is regardless of the "afflicted's" outward appearance.
 
Potential physiological basis for cognitive enhancement in short term:

ADH (vasopressin) potential nootropic (aka "smart drug")

Opiates: Increase ADH release- urinary hesitency familiar side effects among opiate users.

Increased vasopressin= improvements in cognition.

I'll try to research long term use and post within the next couple of days. Argument that deficits occur during PAWS compelling to me from personal experience:(.
 
My (ex)girlfriend was desperately frustrated by my inability to remember simple things that happened, like where some gifts came from, or where some things went (I was fucked up on christmas?mybirthday?her brithday?anniversary? of course. can't be sick on the important days) and a lot of pillow talk gets lost in the nods... but that stuff is usually half intoxicated with sleep and sex anyway...
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I'm getting the same shit from my wife now. Certainly fit the time period. She has resorted to saying 'that's scary' when I can't remember something trivial she brings up (although they are not always trivial:)). I have asked her not to do this.

I quit before and went to school and graduated second in my class. However, as I age, and after relapsing after 12 years I think it is definitely having an effect on my memory....not necessariy intelligence.

However, I'm hoping it will clear if I can get some clean time in again. Didn't sleep a wink last night. I'm no longer fully physically addicted although I have been torturing myself by using sporadically and drawing it out. Also think other drugs (weed,benzos) contribute to this.(memory problems) not to mention sleep deprivation and such.

If anyone has any info with regards to how long it takes the brain to return to normal I would be interested. Exercise is mandatory IMO.
 
tathra said:
you're certainly biased. i had a hypothesis, so i'm trying to gather information to find out if its correct or incorrect. its looking as though the hypothesis is wrong, thus a new hypothesis can be formed after incorperating this knowledge.

thats how science works. you form a hypothesis and gather information through either polls or experiments, and then use the knowledge gained to either refine it or scrap it altogether and work on a new one. in this case, direct experimentation is not a possibility, so the only option was to take a poll and find out whether or not further research would be warranted. considering the little bit of good input i've recieved (most of these replies are just attacking the hypothesis, saying its wrong without providing anything useful), and since its looking as though its an incorrect hypothesis, it would be a wasted effort to experiment.

i could care less if the hypothesis is right or wrong since knowledge is gained either way, and i'd like for you to show me where i discount people's answers and call them lying, retarded junkies. \/
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Most of the replies ARE just attacking the hypothesis, we are bias in the other direction. You had to know that coming in though, right?

I hear you about your whole 7th grade science lecture, Im just saying, you really seem to want the answer you really want.

Objectivity is important, the way you word your questions is important, the direction you lead YOUR thread is important.

Itd be like starting a thread. "I've used opiates for years and im still fucking brilliant, you guys too right?"

first answer. "Umm no actually I noticed alot of memory loss"

reply. "Well your on bupe, you dont count, thats only a partial agonist, excluding bupe users, pot smokers, and opiate users without college experience. Other than them....opiate use increases your intelligence like it did mine and countless of my brilliant junky friends right?"

Why will noone help in my scientific study. Woa is me.. Oh well lemme google some goverment funded studies that support my theory and plug them into the thread.
 
secondary factors

Diet is also huge - some opiate addicts will restrict their diets - they want to get high on an empty stomach - they don't want to eat later. Anyone who is under-nourished for any period of time may experience decreased intellect and memory.
 
After using poppy tea for a year (and finally getting some clean time under my belt, 1 week clean now) I don't feel that I am any less intelligent or having memory difficulties.

The main withdrawals have FINALLY faded away a little bit, but I find that it is difficult to get those endorphins flowing enough to get me moving. I feel like I chronically have no endorphins and have to work that much harder to get the rewarding effects from physical work or even just completing tasks.

I guess I am a lot less goal oriented, but it seems to be improving ever so slowly. Also I am finally starting to sleep again in a more normal pattern.
 
smokeymcpot42088 said:
Itd be like starting a thread. "I've used opiates for years and im still fucking brilliant, you guys too right?"
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its funny you say that, because thats actually the case. but rather than brag about being a genius, i'd rather approach the issue humbly, and see what kind of information i can pull out of what has always been (or it at least was when i moderated this forum) a good sample group to use, as bluelight has all kinds of people from all over the world with every experiene and education level, etcetc.
 
My neuroscience is rusty, but LTP, I believe, involves structural changes in the individual neuron that are involved in learning. The strength and/or frequency of a stimulus gives rise to factors that increase LTP. I think with respect to LTP and opiate exposure, this process was thought to underlie the development of addiction. Yes, the hippocampus is like the stylus of the brain, or working memory, so messing with that can effect memory consolidation. But the conclusions of the Shanghai group are alittle unclear to me ( but don't have time to really think about it- need to look at whole article.) It almost seems that withdrawl decreases performance on these tests, not opiate intoxication per say. I took a graduate neurochemistry course many years ago. I need to find my note book but I believe that nitric oxide and NMDA stimulation are involved in LTP. NMDA antagonists seem to decrease aquisition of tolerance to opiates and nitric oxide syntase inhibitors several years ago were investigated as treatments of tolerance formation/ withdrawl: so thats food for thought- in others words inhibiting LTP would be expected to inhibit aquisition of tolerance. Wish I had stuff I could cite but you all are going to have to rely on my opiate warped brain on this one:\ The study I mentioned were moderate doses of opiates improve memory I know I read somewhere- wish I could remeber where I read it, maybe I should go get myself some percocet so I can remeber:D Oh, and by the way, what Cpt H mentioned, my best year as an undergrad grade wise was my last year when I had just aquired a full blown heroin habit ( I was strung out prety bad in contrast to CH that was able to exercise some measure of control). By winter quarter I was a full on hype but when I wasn't dopesick I had no problem doing the course work, ect... My worst by far was my first 2 quarters when I drank alot. Switching to smoking weed all day, everyday dramatically improved my grades compared to drinking heavily 3-5 nights a week. That and taking LSD periodically during those 1st 2 quarters- would have bad trips about how I was fucking up my future. 8o
The best way to heal the brain in my opinion is not just exercise and good nutrition but to use it- read, study, problem solve as much as possible.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10840056

A article I found on topic- pertaining to deleterious effects of chronic use
 
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tathra said:
its funny you say that, because thats actually the case. but rather than brag about being a genius, i'd rather approach the issue humbly, and see what kind of information i can pull out of what has always been (or it at least was when i moderated this forum) a good sample group to use, as bluelight has all kinds of people from all over the world with every experiene and education level, etcetc.
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You're a genius too? We should have our own sub-forum that prompts with differential equations for entrance.
 
tathra said:
its funny you say that, because thats actually the case. but rather than brag about being a genius, i'd rather approach the issue humbly, and see what kind of information i can pull out of what has always been (or it at least was when i moderated this forum) a good sample group to use, as bluelight has all kinds of people from all over the world with every experiene and education level, etcetc.
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That is true, bluelight does absolutely have a great variety of people. I am far from a genius, maybe if I spent more time applying myself and less time nodding I would be alot smarter.

hey I feel like I was a dick to you, I apologize. It is a very interesting subject and Id be glad to know more.
 
summary of information gathered thus far:
-anecdotal information suggests that short-term opioid use increases motivation and possibly memory/cognition, at least while opioids are in one's system
-once dependance is developed, memory and cognition are fine as long as use remains consistant. if use is interrupted, memory begins malfunctioning until opioids are re-administered
-some research shows that opioid use inhibits synaptic long-term potentiation (acute use) and neurogenesis (chronic use) (if anyone knows of contradictory research, please link!), however it is currently unknown how these physiological changes correlate to subjective and objective experience, although its thought that these changes are what lead to tolerance and other negative side effects
-information on the subjective experiences from people at different points in their opioid use can be used to guide further research. knowing a general timeline for first experience of key experiences, such as opioid-induced disphoria, loss of increased sociability, tolerance, and probably others i cant think of, can help to pinpoint when you should be looking for physiological changes, to see if there is any correlation.
-iirc, for cocaine, physiological changes only occur when the user does it by choice, so no changes occur if the use is forced. its possible that this could also occur with other drugs, and if its the same with opioids, that the physiological changes are different based on whether use was voluntary or forced, it makes all research using forced administration inapplicable to situations where the subjects become dependant voluntarily, which could potentially render worthless a lot of the studies done.

anything i missed?
 
IME after long periods of use I just feel dumber. When I abstain for a period of time I quite literally feel clearer. Its a feeling that a fog has been lifted. During extremely heavy use (for me 240-320mg oxy a day) I sometimes stumble through my words.

While I agree at a certain dose I feel like Superman. I believe that at a certain point things start to go south. Its about the dose where if I stop moving and am comfortable ill nod off but don't have any trouble if I'm active that I notice some problems. Before that time I'm a better version of me.
 
If you think of the brain as a muscle (you know the saying - use it or lose it) as well as the tongue, it should be pretty obvious what happens. When most if not all people use increasing levels of opiates, their muscle coordination as well as balance and depth perception are altered. The dose and tolerance determines the degree.

So while one's mind might go to some areas it has not visited before (often a good thing), the ability of the brain to move quickly and nimbly is diminished with opiates, as well as the tongues ability to express words and thoughts articulately and clearly.
 
I sincerely doubt that this is the case - or at least it has little to do with the MOA of opiates - and more to do with the behavior associated with addiction. Lack of use leads to atrophy - and this goes for your brain as well. If you are nodding out all day long then there isn't much time for study and sudoku, and if the only goal is to score/get enough money to score then you likely aren't having to be too clever.

Edit: Stringtheory beat me to it.
 
my mom has been on opiates since the early 2000s for chronic pain, high doses. her intellect and memory certainly has declined. howevr, she blames it on stress and aging rather than the opiates. i have no way of knowing whether the opiates caused it. however, she is still intelligent. the damage opiates do is not like say, benzos which really effect your intellect and memory.

i take opiates a couple of times a week. i don't an effect on my memory or intellect unless i get extremely high, in which case i find it hard to remember everything that happene.d
 
well for what it's worth, I was on daily opiates for 9 years. I went through [a professional] school on a daily dose of IV morphine that would be much higher than given to most pain patients and I graduated near the top of my class.

afterwards, switching to very high doses of oxy and methadone, I was able to practice with success and my research and writing has an excellent reputation. I don't have memory problems. of course, I am unable to isolate the variable because I cannot go back in time and see how I would have fared without opiates.

I personally don't think I would have done as well in school etc. because junk narrowed my life to the extent that I could concentrate on my school/work. I wasn't creative, I wasn't social--normally I'm more distractable. it's a bad trade-off; I would rather be less effective at work but be a whole person. as uncle bill said, junk kind of turns you into a plant.

now that I'm opiate-free my work is really suffering but that's because I'm only three weeks out. in a year, perhaps--when the mania and anxiety subsides--we can bump this up again and I'll let you know if my memory and cognitive skills have improved.
 
I think that opiate dependency has definitely effected my memory

I used to have a great memory that my friends would comment about the things i would talk about us doing many many years ago but since i have been an opiate user my memory has turned to shit

I find my self trying to remember words and names of things that should come to me no problem

it sometimes takes so long for me to remember a word that i get really frustrated with my self

It has also effected my spelling, the amount of times i have to use the spell checker for simple words is unreal and is not a problem i used to have

I cant say if its due to me still being on methadone an that is effecting me or if its from teh use of heroin its self but i notice when i take less methadone on certain days i feel my mind alot sharper than usual so i hope once im off the done i will be back to my old self
 
opioids and opiates wouldn't do much to intellect and memory but benzos and barbs would and a lot of opioid addicts also take benzos and or barbs so that could play a significant factor
 
also drug addicts a lot of times spend so much time getting high that they don't do much academically and like they say use it or lose it in this case it being your brain
 
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