Let's talk about the benefits or evils of using antipsychotics/benzos to kill a trip

[Church]

^ Right on!

 

[Obyron]

... so I gotta ask some of you: what exactly are you taking psychedelics for, again? [...] These aren't toys... if you take a trip, you are stuck in it, so you better learn from it. If you can't handle whatever's thrown your way, you don't deserve to be taking them.

This is a pretty irresponsible and silly post. If someone is having such a bad experience on psychedelic drugs that they're seriously considering self-harm, would you tell them to go ahead and do it because it's a learning experience, and that it's what they get because they don't "deserve" to be doing psychedelics to begin with?

That kind of elitist attitude is just complete bullshit. No, drugs aren't toys, but I'll bet you 99% of the people on Bluelight didn't start using drugs because they thought it'd be a beneficial self-exploration experience. How many people who've never touched drugs wake up one day and decide they'd like to try LSD for self-exploration? I know they're out there, but I'd say the vast majority of us probably tried it with friends out of boredom or curiosity first with the intent to HAVE FUN, and -continued- using the substances because of the desire for self-exploration that they awakened in us. Under your rules for who "deserves" to psychedelics, most people would never get a chance to try to them to begin with. A lot of people who might benefit from eventual self-exploration would never get the chance because their motives just aren't pure enough for you.

I wouldn't have bothered responding, but I've noticed some snarky responses from you lately that have just really pissed me off. Psychedelics gave me a lot of the motivation I needed to turn my life around, and find a balance between responsibility, personal growth, and outright fun. If it had been left up to you this never would have happened, because I wouldn't have "deserved" to try hallucinogens the first few times I did them.

I had one particularly bad acid trip that I learned a lot from, and I brought it on myself. I got to spend about 6 hours in a dark little hole stuck in a self-analytical loop where I pretty much destroyed myself mentally and got to put myself back together. What I got out of it in the end was worth it to me, and the growth would have been lost if I'd aborted, but if I'd seriously considered killing myself at some point during the experience you can bet your ass I would've aborted. Self-growth stops when the only thing your "self" is growing are daisies and worm food.

As has also been pointed out, some of us have friends who-- despite our well-meaning-- may not be as responsible as we are. It'd be nice to keep something around for them in the case that we get that phone call saying, "Hey man, I fucked up and took too much 5-AbC-XYZ, and it's really getting ugly. Can you help me?" If it gets so bad that someone I care about is calling me and humbling themselves to beg for a way out, I'm not going to make them suffer because Church doesn't think they deserved to trip.

So maybe reconsider your attitude?

 

[Church]

So maybe reconsider your attitude?

No.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and that is what we should be able to do in here: feel free to speak our mind. But I stand by what I said, and you have the right to misinterpret it as being elitist. The fact remains, though, that this has nothing to do with elitism. It has to do with watching people abuse psychedelics, abuse their minds, abuse their brains, and all for what? Because they feel that if the going gets tough, they can just pop a pill and kill the trip.

Well fuck that. I feel strongly about my thoughts on the matter, just like you feel strongly about yours. You can call my comments "snarky" all you want. I am speaking from genuine concern about the mentality of people lately who seem to be interested in psychedelic drugs. If it is elitist to want people to respect psychedelic drugs, drugs which are powerful and have the ability to fuck one's life up if the experience is not integrated properly, then so be it. Call me elitist. People who have been around long enough and know me, know that I am far from being elitist, so I will try not to be offended by your assessment of my character. 8) What you call suffering, I call learning. If you were in an ayahuasca retreat, "suffering," as you call it, and begging for a way out of the trip, the shaman would just laugh at you. Of course, that's just because he's elitist, though.

You seem really upset, or offended, that I said these people "don't deserve to be taking them." Well, guess what? Psychedelics aren't for everyone! Get over it! I wish I could enjoy amphetamines the way that many people seem to be able to, but I'm not crying about it. I just drink coffee instead. And as far as your comment about people stuck in a trip, "seriously considering self-harm," come on... that is a different scenario than what I was originally bringing this up for. Obviously, there are extenuating circumstances to almost everything. Fastandbulbous' example a few posts above is representative of this. But what I was saying is that everyone is already very concerned about having a bad trip long before even taking the drugs, and needlessly worrying about having antipsychotics on hand. Stop putting words in my mouth. All I was saying is that many people are WAY too quick to kill their trip before their mind can make sense of it all and learn and grow from it.

I'm not telling anyone not to trip, either. Do you really think I'm sitting here tallying up all the people who trip and when they trip, and what was the result of their trip? So I can scold them later and let them know that they shouldn't be abusing these sacred substances? No, I'm not. You all can do what you want to do. I'm merely speaking my mind, which is what I expect everyone to be able to do in here.

I'm sure I'll think of more to say later. I'm gonna move all these posts to another thread where people can bitch about how being caring and concerned about people's safety and growth equates to being elitist.

8)

Oh yeah, one more thing:

I'll bet you 99% of the people on Bluelight didn't start using drugs because they thought it'd be a beneficial self-exploration experience.

I'll bet you that that number is a ridiculous, made-up statistic.

 

[trip.more]

Yep I'm all for riding it out.A trip isn't always going to be pleasant but I feel that's what makes it worth while in the end.If you can't handle the heat stay away from the kitchen

 

[Xorkoth]

Also look at it this way: when you abort a difficult trip, the issues that made it difficult are not resolved but just shut back up and repressed. That means that every time you trip, you're more and more likely to end up in the same difficult trip. It will just get worse and worse until you can ride it out and come to terms with what's wrong in your head. Why would you even bother to continue to take psychedelics if you're just going to get scared and abort every trip? It's not only pointless, but wasteful and dangerous as well. There's nothing wrong with having a benzo or antipsychotic on hand just in case, but if you're planning on using it, then what's even the point of tripping in the first place?

Personally, I used to have very difficult trips. I mean, every single one had me begging it to stop and beating myself up over having subjected myself to the horror of psychedelics again. However, with each one I rode out, it got easier and easier to realize that the negativity and anxiety were just temporary and as long as you keep a positive mindset, everything will work out once the drug plateaus. Eventually tripping became pleasant and easy during every stage, usually at least. At this point, I rarely feel any anxiety or negativity at any time during a trip, and when I do I push through it and emerge with a greater understanding of myself.

The result of this is that not only do I not have anxiety or fear when I trip, but I very rarely have anxiety or fear when sober, either, because the same issues that were bothering me subconsciously while tripping were also bothering me subconsciously at all other times, although at a much lower level.

Or let me put it this way: I'm damn glad I rode out all of my difficult trips when I did.

 

[theWorldWithin]

^ That seems to me to be an argument for NOT using LSD in public, rather than for having tranquilizers available.

I could not agree with you more. In fact I do not advocate the use of LSD period (for the record I feel it is the most harmfull phychedelic with no advantage over mushrooms but that is entirely off topic). But some people are stubborn dumbasses who will dose with no reguard to set and setting. Although I know it would be right to let the shit hit the fan it is a hard thing to do when its close friends involved.

Personally I am entirely opposed to tripping indoors or in any urban setting (busy parks or urban streets for example) but some people will do it anyway. In the name of harm reduction I believe having something on hand for these situation is for the greater good. No one likes to see violent assholes off their faces when they are walking down the street to buy groceries

 

[kong]

I think there is a big difference between violent physcotic episodes and a person having a bad trip.

People misdose. Whether out of stupidity, pride, inexperience, or misrepresented chemicals, ODs on physedelics seem to happen fairly often.

I saw a guy a couple blocks away from where he was supposed to be sitting on a park bench, and sort of lunging toward the "normals" on a busy downtown shopping/bar type area. He kept yelling incoherent bullshit at people and seemed convinced he was at the show, kinda shaking/dancing. And this is a big guy. A friend of mine had a couple xanax and a thorazine "just in case". He gave the guy the pills and after sitting with him for about 15mins he had calmed down enough to walk him back where his friends found him and presumably took better care of him.

Another friend of mine got "PUDDLED" and ended up thinking he was at the show and was really about 1000yds away, sitting in a pond. He rode it out by himself, without anyone, or any pills. He has never been the same since. Which I know can be said for alot of people including myself, but this is in a very negative way. Without going into too much detail, this formally outgoing, well adjusted, (by my standards anyway), individual is now basically a hermit, and has been for the last three yrs. He said he paid for 3 hits of liquid, from someone he didn't know. Bad mistake.

I fully believe that bad trips can be the most worthwhile. I have taken a few substances in quantities above that which I would have like to be on during the experience itself. These mini-ODs causing my experience to be much more intense than planned, and causing me to confront personal issues that were very painful, and previously unknown to me. Maybe those last couple drops were more potent, maybe the edge hits are more potent. I been taken by surprise several times, and I'm glad, its benifited me to undergo difficult experiences. Dosing cacti can be a crapshoot.

I have never aborted a trip, and probably wouldn't on my own. But when taking high doses of chemicals (high doses meaning "++1/2" "+++" 4-5 hits of L) in public or in large groups I feel that having a thorazine or two in my shoe is responsible. My friends know where it is and will make me take it god forbid, I for whatever reason end up taking way to much and start acting in a dangerous manner.

In my mind, my experiences so far are different from someone who massively ODs. I don't know how the drugs given to the first guy affected his life, but I certainly don't believe we killed his unwanted quest of self realization. If anything, we kept him out of jail/hostpital where I am certain he would not have recieved better treatment. Without the pills, there was no dealing with this guy. He was absolutely incoherent. He was probably going to hurt someone. After the pills, he was calm and could be told what to do ie. walk that way, don't punch anyone....(he hit my friend several times before we decided to give him pills) I acknowedge the ethical implications of playing doctor with people you've never met.

I believe that there is a threshold in dosage for some chemicals where riding it out can be of no benifit, and actually causes much more harm than good.

Although a different topic competely, I have learned to be very careful with dosing new chemicals or new batches of chemicals I have previously come into contact with. So far so good, other than some "acid" that was actually 5-meo-amt, buts thats another story from quite while back.

 

[swilow]

Anti-psychotics should only be used in the case of a severe psychotic reaction- besides emotional trauma, these things are fucking strong. I've personally never been near them on psychedelics and don't plan to.

I've never in my life seen so many "how do I kill my trip" threads as I've seen here in the last 12 months... so I gotta ask some of you: what exactly are you taking psychedelics for, again?

I think what a lot of people are really wanting is not so much to terminate the trip, but ease the anxiety so one can be fully receptive to the experience. Benzos will relieve anxiety, but definitely subtract from your receptivity. My thoughts are more along the lines of keeping a xanax/etc on hand just in case anxiety gets in the way. However, it is a last resort, I can usually beat fear/anxiety with mindfullness and breathing.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Good thread. I tend to be on Church's side of the fence.

 

[Jamshyd]

I really, really don't mean to sound elitest in any way.

But I think that if someone has enough experience with psychedelics, one can easily "emulate" what a trip would be like in a given set and setting and therefore decide befrorehand whether taking a psychedelic would be a good idea or not.

Any comments on this?

 

[egor]

Now, there is definite benefit in riding out the toughest trips in that you are much more likely to take something truly meaningful from the experience; even if it is nothing more than times at work where I found myself thinking "I got through that trip, so I can handle anything this dickhead can throw at me."; but there is a point at which someone becomes violent, delerius, and a total danger to himself and those around them. This is where the trip stoppers should be brought out. The truth is if you work with psychadelics for long enough, you will encounter one of the nightmare scenarios. It may not be you having the issues with coping with the intensity, but someone you are with.
How many of you who feel it is never good to have a benzo or something like it on hand have NEVER had an experiance where you or a friend TRULY needed to be sedated?? Sometimes the bad trip can cause more mental damage than the underlying issue causing it.

 

[Obyron]

I'll bet you that that number is a ridiculous, made-up statistic.

And I'll bet you skipped the point of the sentence and just focused on the number.

You're more than entitled to disagree with me. As a point of harm reduction I just think you're plain wrong. Additionally, I don't think we're doing much good to the cause of psychedelics by hanging people out to dry when they have an episode that could obviously leave them with long term psychological harm. Some people may become aware of a problem while using psychedelics that they would feel more comfortable working out under more conventional circumstances than having a head full of drugs.

I'm of the opinion that aborting a potentially disastrous trip is no more or less dangerous than riding it out. Some people will work through it, but there are some people who don't.

 

[Xorkoth]

But I think that if someone has enough experience with psychedelics, one can easily "emulate" what a trip would be like in a given set and setting and therefore decide befrorehand whether taking a psychedelic would be a good idea or not.

Any comments on this?

Well, I wouldn't say you can exactly emulate the mental state (unless you're very good indeed!), but I definitely agree that as you get more and more experience, you can easily tell whether or not taking a psychedelic in a given set and setting is going to be a good idea. Lots of it is just common sense, I think, but I've definitely developed an intuition, where sometimes even when everything seems really perfect, I've gotten a feeling that I shouldn't take the drug at that time, so I don't. In one case particularly, some events that happened later made it very clear that I should listen to that intuition! The events were alright since I was sober, but had I been tripping things would have turned out differently.

On a somewhat related note, I've also developed the ability over the years to partially bring myself into psychedelic states with which I am familiar just by meditating. With weed, this is particularly possible. However, I've not tried to apply this to "feeling out" an upcoming trip.

How many of you who feel it is never good to have a benzo or something like it on hand have NEVER had an experiance where you or a friend TRULY needed to be sedated??

Me. I've had difficult trips, either myself, friends, or both, and I've certainly wanted to abort some of them, but even the most horrific did not cause any of us to become an actual threat to ourselves or others.

On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with having a benzo or antipsychotic on hand as a backup, nor would I see anything wrong with giving one to a person who had gone completely delusional and was becoming violent or otherwise dangerous.

 

[egor]

"On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with having a benzo or antipsychotic on hand as a backup, nor would I see anything wrong with giving one to a person who had gone completely delusional and was becoming violent or otherwise dangerous."

I agree, that the roughest trips tend to be the most useful and informative.

This is what I was referring to specifically, not just a mentaly rough ride, but when someone truly becomes a threat to themselves or others.

 

[DemonSeed]

I agree with a lot of what was said. I acquired benzo lately and used them to abort ordinary trips, to be able to sleep. The reason I think you shouldn't use benzo like candies is that it destroys a good part of the after-glow. After aborting a trip late in the night, I just went to bed and had no dreams. The other day, I felt disoriented, slept a lot, wake up, and slept some more. Usually, the nights after I had a trip on a psychedelic I have intense sometimes lucid dreams. I haven't been having any dreams in nights, except small shitty scenes. Since I started using benzo, I lost this part of the after-glow. For now, I try to avoid them as much as possible, I see them as anti-awareness and non-spiritual substances which should only be used rarely and when it's necessary.

 

[Putingrad]

...if you take a trip, you are stuck in it, so you better learn from it. If you can't handle whatever's thrown your way, you don't deserve to be taking them.

I think this is a pretty provocative statement to make. I find it a bit narrow minded to say "oh well, you can't handle psychedelics so you shouldn't be taking them". You're very right, psychedelics are not a toy, which means that even the most experienced trippers can never truly have total control over them. Psychedelics are acting directly to turn the knobs on the neuro/biological parts of our brain which are in many ways what makes us "human," and for many people this can be an overwhelmingly negative experience, and it's certainly not like there's not a precedent of incredibly destabilizing and debilitating psychological effects as the consequence of trips of the psychosis-inducing mental anguish variety.

 

[Church]

I find it a bit narrow minded to say "oh well, you can't handle psychedelics so you shouldn't be taking them".

Really? Because I call it "harm-reduction."

 

[Obyron]

Really? Because I call it "harm-reduction."

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said:

Under your rules for who "deserves" to psychedelics, most people would never get a chance to try to them to begin with.

You can't be sure if you can handle psychedelics until you've tried them, because you have no frame of reference for the experience, so by a strict interpretation of your stance no one should try psychedelics for the first time, just in case. I think the DEA would like your model of harm reduction.

 

[Putingrad]

What I mean to imply by that is that even the most experienced trippers, and those who both you and I would agree meet the criteria of "being able to handle them," can get a serious kick in the ass just simply because the nature of psychedelics can be very unpredictable. If something is causing you serious anguish, you most certainly have the right to end it if you have the means at your disposal (benzos/antipsychs, etc.). , and furthermore not have to be subjected to ridicule for your choice. I have never had antipsychs on me before a trip for the express purpose of ending it if need be, and probably never will, not have I ever ended a trip this way. And I agree that planning this beforehand is probably counter-productive to the purposes of tripping, but if they're around and you're needing SOMETHING to drive that mental writhing away... go for it.

 

[Xorkoth]

You can't be sure if you can handle psychedelics until you've tried them, because you have no frame of reference for the experience, so by a strict interpretation of your stance no one should try psychedelics for the first time, just in case. I think the DEA would like your model of harm reduction.

Although I see your point, I think you're overreacting a little to what Church said. He didn't say that you shouldn't take them unless you're absolutely sure you can handle them. Of course no one knows for sure if they'll be alright the first time they take a trip, or indeed, any time they do.

I think what Church was saying was that if you repeatedly take psychedelics and then freak out and abort them, perhaps you shouldn't be taking psychedelics. That's actually what every one of my friends from my hometown ended up deciding. They just never had any good trips, so they stopped, rather than keep taking them and getting drunk or taking benzos to come down.

Hell, if I always ended up freaking out on psychedelics, I would stop taking them too. That almost happened to me four years back, and I did stop for two years. Fortunately I never had a benzo or anything on hand to abort with and I never liked alcohol much, so I was able to slowly work through that and find out why I kept freaking out, and stop it. Of course, by freaking out I mean mentally. I never had a trip where I lost control and became violent. If that had happened, I would have hoped that someone would have given me something to abort it.