Let's talk about the benefits or evils of using antipsychotics/benzos to kill a trip

[shypht]

I think that some people get so worried about bad trips, how to prepare for bad trips, what to do if a bad trip goes wrong, how to abort bad trips, and needing every last detail perfect in their trip - simply creates a bad mindset that is more likely to lead to a bad trip than simply 'going with the flow.'

If all that is on your mind prior to tripping is '...what if the trip goes bad', seems to lay down a pretty poor mindset for tripping.

I also think most people over-use the term 'bad trip', and use it to simply describe trips which may not be all pretty visuals and laughter, and any time the trip starts to go south / introspective or digging up issues that they don't want to face - they try and fight it, and start sending themselves into a loop, and then go reaching for their pills to abort the loop.

To me, a bad trip would be one that was close to a psychotic break and putting the tripper at risk for physical/mental risk to themselves or those around them. Simply finding yourself in a negative head space that has you reflecting on your life / situation is not a 'bad trip', its a useful lesson and may do the tripper a hell of allot of good to make use of the mindset instead of looking for the off switch.

Ultimately, I do think that they have their place in EXTREME situations, but think that they get over-used in general. I've never aborted a trip, or had a trip that I've wanted to abort - even the ones where I was scared shitless, or getting lost in very negative thought-loops.

Psychedelics is like running a defrag on my head - abort it mid-way and you are not getting the job done

That being said, with rare exception - I generally plan my trips in advance, and ensure that I'm in a good mental state going into the trip, dose appropriate for where I am tripping, and make sure I have everything in order before I trip (ie: homework, responabilities, etc) done. And, if some 'issues' start popping up into my head - I start exploring them, and gotta say - I've made some really positive changes in my life as a result of 'difficult' trips.

 

[Church]

Psychedelics is like running a defrag on my head - abort it mid-way and you are not getting the job done

Beautifully said!!! (at least, for us computer nerds)

 

[SpellmanT7]

I've never in my life seen so many "how do I kill my trip" threads as I've seen here in the last 12 months... (

I may be being over-judgemental here but it does seem, from trip reports, that almost 50% of BL posters have no comprehension of the importance of SET and SETTING.

I swear that there is an increase in posters beginning reports/posts questioning why they 'freaked out' with "I decided to drop the first two hits/pills/milligrams before lunch hour". The same individuals then go on to describe their surprise at feeling uncomfortable when surrounded by several hundred people or failing to adequately blend in amongst society whilst under the influence of psychoactive drugs.

There is, apparently, no limit to what people are prepared to take/do in highly populated areas nowadays. Research chemicals on the dashboard before driving to the theatre? No worries, I'm a great driver, I wont crash just because the road turns into a desert.

Similarly, kids aged 13 feel they have sufficient maturity to handle LSD...before family parties/funerals/etc.

What the fuck is going on to make people think they have a genetic 'drug maturity'? I know I'm ranting but christ, I have some knowledge of my limits and definitely have more respect for cannabis than some people seemingly have for dope...

I will say this - having anti-psychotics on hand in case someone else freaks out in comfortable surroundings has got to be a semi-decent idea.

edit : removed text I knew/know my limits - absolute bullshit. I only know my limits in terms of locations in which I can 'safely' misuse drugs.

 

[Xorkoth]

Shypt's post

Good god, it's like you said it for me...

 

[gloggawogga]

This is a pretty irresponsible and silly post. If someone is having such a bad experience on psychedelic drugs that they're seriously considering self-harm, would you tell them to go ahead and do it because it's a learning experience, and that it's what they get because they don't "deserve" to be doing psychedelics to begin with?

That kind of elitist attitude is just complete bullshit. No, drugs aren't toys, but I'll bet you 99% of the people on Bluelight didn't start using drugs because they thought it'd be a beneficial self-exploration experience. How many people who've never touched drugs wake up one day and decide they'd like to try LSD for self-exploration? I know they're out there, but I'd say the vast majority of us probably tried it with friends out of boredom or curiosity first with the intent to HAVE FUN, and -continued- using the substances because of the desire for self-exploration that they awakened in us. Under your rules for who "deserves" to psychedelics, most people would never get a chance to try to them to begin with. A lot of people who might benefit from eventual self-exploration would never get the chance because their motives just aren't pure enough for you.

I wouldn't have bothered responding, but I've noticed some snarky responses from you lately that have just really pissed me off. Psychedelics gave me a lot of the motivation I needed to turn my life around, and find a balance between responsibility, personal growth, and outright fun. If it had been left up to you this never would have happened, because I wouldn't have "deserved" to try hallucinogens the first few times I did them.

I had one particularly bad acid trip that I learned a lot from, and I brought it on myself. I got to spend about 6 hours in a dark little hole stuck in a self-analytical loop where I pretty much destroyed myself mentally and got to put myself back together. What I got out of it in the end was worth it to me, and the growth would have been lost if I'd aborted, but if I'd seriously considered killing myself at some point during the experience you can bet your ass I would've aborted. Self-growth stops when the only thing your "self" is growing are daisies and worm food.

As has also been pointed out, some of us have friends who-- despite our well-meaning-- may not be as responsible as we are. It'd be nice to keep something around for them in the case that we get that phone call saying, "Hey man, I fucked up and took too much 5-AbC-XYZ, and it's really getting ugly. Can you help me?" If it gets so bad that someone I care about is calling me and humbling themselves to beg for a way out, I'm not going to make them suffer because Church doesn't think they deserved to trip.

So maybe reconsider your attitude?

Would it be elitist of me to say that people who aren't physically fit enough for mountain climbing shouldn't go mountain climbing? Is it OK for people who aren't physically fit for mountain climbing, or who are otherwise irresponsible when they climb mountains, to just rely on helicoptors to come and rescue them whenever they need it?

Additionally, I don't think we're doing much good to the cause of psychedelics by hanging people out to dry when they have an episode that could obviously leave them with long term psychological harm.

He didn't say we should hang people out to dry. Mountain climbers who aren't physically fit shouldn't be left in the mountains to die there either. But don't you think that just like some people who aren't fit for mountain climing and should be discouraged from it that there are some people should be discouraged from using psychedelics?

There's nothing elitist about it. Its all in the interest of safety. We're not saying you shouldn't use an antipsychotic if you need one. We're saying if you get your self in the situation where you do need one then you weren't being a very responsible psychedelic user in the first place.

 

[Tranced]

Stanislav Grof (LSD psychotherapy) claims that antipsychotics should never be used to abort bad trips since they "freeze" whatever trauma happens to be going on and sublimate it into the unconscious.

That's assuming that whoever is having the bad trip is going through some kind of problem in their head though, it's entirely possible that the drug could simply be causing anxiety which could make the experience a negative one. In that case I think that it's perfectly reasonable to take a valium/xanax or whatever to bring you down to a more comfortable place (maybe an anti-psychotic is a bit extreme though).

Not everyone gets introspective while tripping and not everyone takes psychedelics for those reasons, I'd rather take some kind of chemical than have an anxiety attack for no particular reason.

 

[Church]

Gloggawogga, thank you for elucidating my thoughts for me! You said it so well, and I couldn't agree more with your words... especially the mountain climber analogy.

 

[redeemer]

I would just like to say that I think the argument of the OP is valid and it has convinced me not to take a depressant in case my next mushroom trip, which is this Friday, gets uncomfortable. I think I was inclined to do this because of my previous two trips, my first and second, which I would classify as horrible and unpleasant, repectively. I've realized the main reason my first trip took the course it took was because of insecurities I had at that time, insecurities of which I've become more aware and processed to some degree.

The reason of the unpleasantness of my second trip was an anxious feeling during the trip that returned about a year later as an anxiety disorder. I think the mushrooms brought up the feelings during the trip that caused the anxiety. I've learned to handle this anxiety with meditation which works wonders and which has convinced me that my next trip will take a better course, but if it doesn't I'll know there's a reason behind it and I will have to try to cope with it.

That's assuming that whoever is having the bad trip is going through some kind of problem in their head though, it's entirely possible that the drug could simply be causing anxiety which could make the experience a negative one.

I think many would argue, myself included - to a certain degree atleast, that the anxiety allegedly brought on by the drug is really brought on by repressed feelings that the drug brings forward. And by repressing this anxiety you're just repressing the issues causing the anxiety, thereby hindering the tripper in coping with these issues properly.

 

[gloggawogga]

it's entirely possible that the drug could simply be causing anxiety which could make the experience a negative one.

No, I don't think so. You seem to be making the assumption your self that a state of anxiety can just be induced chemically by a psychedelic drug, independent of the set and setting i.e. without having an underlying psychological causes. There is little evidence in psychedelic research to support that idea.

an anxiety attack for no particular reason.

If you really think you're having anxiety attacks for "no particular reason" when you use psychedelics then its probably not a good idea, from a safety standpoint, for you to be using psychedelics period, IMHO. Thats the point of this thread.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone ever has anxiety attacks for "no particular reason". Some people may be so overwhelmed by their anxiety that they don't consciously know the reasons, but I still think there are underlying psychological reasons. Of course, for some people, its an easy out to say "there's no particular reason" and "its not me" and "I'm gonna take a pill now". Its a whole lot easier than facing your problems.

 

[Tranced]

No, I don't think so. You seem to be making the assumption your self that a state of anxiety can just be induced chemically by a psychedelic drug, independent of the set and setting

Of course set and setting is crucial to a psychedelic trip, the one and only point that I did not agree with is that some form of personal trauma/repressed feelings are inherent to causing anxiety, which would result in some form of unfinished business once the trip was terminated. There are a whole host of factors that can cause anxiety such as set and setting, physical discomfort/bodyloads (which are induced chemically by a range of psychedelics), Paranoia/looped thoughts (Due to set and setting/racing minds), being so overwhelmed by the experience that you lose the concept of language at which point no outside influence stands any chance of talking you down. It is very easy to get feelings of anxiety when you are thrown into an alien reality inside your head that even you don't understand. It's not as if psychedelics are predictable.

Oh and I'm not having anxiety attacks (just incase you thought I was).

 

[Tranced]

Personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone ever has anxiety attacks for "no particular reason".

That was in reference to the post that I quoted - I meant in relation to the commonly heald belief by some on this forum that people are going through some kind of introspective personal trauma when having a "bad trip" that results in an anxiety attack which is quite simply not the case.

Sometimes you just don't feel right and a small escape like valium could do considerably more good than harm.

 

[shypht]

One thing I've noticed - although this is more with mushrooms than LSD. If I start going into a negative head-space and digging up all sorts of issues and start having what some may call a 'bad trip'. If you go with it, and work with it - instead of fighting it, the pay off at the end of it is probably one of the most euphoric feelings that I've had on drugs before.

I recall one trip where I was terrified that it was 3 days later, that I was going to be coming to in my own pile of vomit and piss in the corner of a jail cell - I was afraid that I was dead, or going to die, or never going to come down. This was my 3rd or 4th trip and I didn't know much about mushrooms or psychedelics at the time - and my main interest prior to this trip was 'partying and having fun' (my opinion changed after this trip)

Toss in the fact that I was 'alone' at a roof-top patio psytrance party - I knew a few people there, but wasnt there /with/ anyone - and well, this could of been a VERY bad situation.

But, I ended up working through all the stuff that was flying around in my head, stopped fighting the trip, started to accept it - and it thrust me into one of the most euphoric, full-body orgasmic level trips that I've ever had. I probably could of 'aborted' with a pill - but hell, the payoff once everything clicked back into place and once I got my head sorted was amazing.

I can think of many other trips similar (although not nearly as extreme), where the first part of my trip can be very heavy - and sometimes unpleasant as I'm being forced to face some stuff that isn't all that easy to deal with. But, once I work through it / deal with it, the trip takes an amazing upward turn - and i dont think it'd be the same if I just went reaching for a little pill instead of dealing with the bit of anxiety that may crop up here and there.

 

[gloggawogga]

There are a whole host of factors that can cause anxiety such as set and setting, physical discomfort/bodyloads (which are induced chemically by a range of psychedelics), Paranoia/looped thoughts (Due to set and setting/racing minds), being so overwhelmed by the experience that you lose the concept of language at which point no outside influence stands any chance of talking you down.

But those are psychological factors, and if you take a valium, you are running away from it. The factors will return on your next trip, unless you change the setting substantially or deal with them on a psychological level. My point stands, there is no such thing as "anxiety for no particular reason". Furthermore when you if you use that justification to take a pill for such anxiety, your claim to "no particular reason" is just part of how you run away from the reason whataver it is.

discomfort/bodyloads (which are induced chemically by a range of psychedelics

Assuming thats true, anxiety is still a psychological response to physical discomfort. And with the traditional psychedelics, such as LSD and psilocybin, the evidence suggests most of the physical discomfort, if experienced at all, is psychosomatically induced.

Sometimes you just don't feel right and a small escape like valium could do considerably more good than harm.

When I don't feel right it benefits me a whole lot more to ask why I don't feel right and work with it cognitively instead of taking a pill. In my experience, there's always a reason for the anxiety.

 

[slippy sleeveen]

I agree that you should ride it out if it becomes tough because you will be thankful in the end if you do. It will only help you in the end.

Too many people think of psychedelics in a mental strength manner. People need to realize that there are some people that just should not take psychedelics. Some people just do not enjoy having their conciousness altered. That is fine by me, I don't think any less of them, nor think more of myself for being able to handle it.

A time on mushrooms, in which I became very sick physically, I would of killed for a benzo just so I could abort the trip. If I had less experience with psychedelics, I might of called the ER... I was feeling like I was physically in danger. I had periods were I would relax my mind but that did not help my stomach from knotting up and my eyes feeling like they were about to implode. A friend of mine had some oxy's and was going to lend me one if I really needed it, so I grabbed it, held it in my hand... and just kept it there. Something within me told me to just keep going and ride it out. I did just that... Did I learn anything from this? Well, I learned a bit from the trip, but since then I am very anxious about my physical reaction to drugs. I nearly thought I was going to die..and I've put myself through a lot, but it was horrible.

Sometime you just need to ride it out..and the whole argument that those of us young (i'm 23..really not that young) don't have the grit to trip... well, I have many older friends that have noted smoothing out trips back in the day with a vast array of substances, so it is not like it is a new phenomena

 

[vecktor]

Is aborting a trip a good idea...

I have spun this out of best drug to abort an LSD trip on ADD. simply because it isn't on topic any more.
the question is whether it is psychologically more harmful to abort a trip rather than ride it out and deal with whatever it throws up.
My personal opinion is that in extremis it is useful to abort.

 

[swilow]

I think if a person is psychotic, whereby they are violent towards others or themselves, the trip definitely should be aborted, if possible. Not much good comes from psychosis. However, if the problem is anxiety or panic, I would suggest a benzo, a largish dose (1-2mg xanax, 10-20 mg diazepam) should relieve the anxiety and help push the trip into a better place. I have had extremely 'psychotic' panic attacks myself (not on drugs) so I am a bit more careful these days.... move this to PD if you want vektor

 

[nuke]

Alprazolam or opiates have worked well for me.

 

[drew345]

Alprazolam I was having a bad time on 3 hits of LSD took .5mg turned the whole experience around in ten minutes.

 

[theWorldWithin]

Aborting a trip is a last resort but one that should always be available. No need to cause psychological harm to an individual if it can be prevented. First try to ride out a difficult experience, then turn towards the benzo's or opiates, and lastly a full abort for truely threatening states.

I think alot of times people will turn to benzos or anti psychotics to soon. A change of setting or moral support can do wonders to turn around a negative experience. With that said there are plenty of occasions when AP's or benzos are a neccesity to protect trippers and bystandards.

 

[swilow]

^^^Aborting a trip when your in the middle of a terrifying scenario is a good way to manifest some PTSD symptoms in a person; usually a bad trip resolves itself when the drug wears off, and that can be the most fulfilling aspect of it. To stop it halfway does risk harm to a person. Spiritually, I think you can still gain from psychedelics even with a head full of benzo's.