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let's have a writing workshop

I have closed and archived the first two workshop threads. The words archive can be accessed via the sub-forum link at the top of Words. Here are the links to the individual threads:

Workshop Thread #1 - "Love Rhymes with Hideous Car Wreck" by xxxyyy

Workshop Thread #2 - "iDate" by Max Power

Round one went pretty well. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read and contribute feedback. Time for round two. I will have my story up by Wednesday, at the latest. How are you doing, hydro? All good?
 
Reading Maxes now.

Review immediately forthcoming.

Sorry work 13 hours and staring late mid morning.

Just got home.

Apologies.

Thou.
 
I have closed and archived the first two workshop threads. The words archive can be accessed via the sub-forum link at the top of Words. Here are the links to the individual threads:

Workshop Thread #1 - "Love Rhymes with Hideous Car Wreck" by xxxyyy

Workshop Thread #2 - "iDate" by Max Power

Round one went pretty well. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read and contribute feedback. Time for round two. I will have my story up by Wednesday, at the latest. How are you doing, hydro? All good?

Whoa, didn't get a chance to respond to other people's critiques? You jumped the gun a little, imo.

Here was what I would have written...

NSFW:
wow, thanks for all the great feedback. I've been hesitant to check back on this thread if only because hearing/reading any discussion on my writing makes me queasy at first. all your insights though have been helpful and duly noted. I feel like jokes are hard to critique due to the inherent subjectivity in humor. The trick is finding the jokes that not a single person likes.

This was a very rough first-draft, almost just an outline even. Not too much, if any, revision after the initial jot down. For that, I'm sorry. I feel like I let people down. My re-writing focus will be on shoring up the ending. And also removing cliches (half the story gone, amirite?). I'm a bad person for that and I should feel bad. Using cliches is lazy writing and a cardinal sin, I know. It's especially nasty in humor writing. I either should have removed them upon re-reading the finished story or never written them down to begin with. bleh.

For being a rough first draft though, it's not the worst thing in the world. I'm glad one or two of you happen to agree. Admittedly, it needs work.

also, it helps in reading the story to realize this character is flat out stupid. I'll have to work on making that even more obvious. Most of the [main] characters I write about share this trait. This is more than likely due to my love of John Swartzwelder novels. If anyone wants an e-copy of one, let me know and I'll more than gladly send you the file. (I'm looking at you L2R) It's truly amazing stuff, highly recommended if you want a good laugh or are a fan of 90s era Simpsons writing.

anyways, thanks again everyone.

p.s. I don't know if the Nigerian bit is THAT played out yet, but sure. I'll can it.
 
Sorry, Max. Didn't realize you wanted to make comments after the week was finished. I'm going to move a copy of your post into the archive thread. I'll take this into account for next time. Maybe an extra day, after the week, for the writer's reply is a good idea. It's best to remain quiet, as you did. Both for you and for us. Expectations and explanations affect how we read stories. This is why don't read blurbs or watch trailers. I also think it's a good idea (what you did in workshop #1) to not read other people's feedback either. So yeah, my bad. I indeed jumped the gun. We're still working things out. Like if you'd said at some point throughout this thread that you'd like extra time to respond to the responses, the wouldn't have archived it. I was just going by the plan. I'm rambling. Datura and poppy seed tea will do that to you.

Also, one thing that I find really beneficial about workshops (for writers and editors) is to re-workshop a later draft of the same story. Since there are currently vacant spots, if anybody wants to submit a new draft later in the week, let me know.
 
no no no, i loved the cliches! your incessant use made them work so good. yes, okay, i agree and acknowledge that your tongue was so firmly and deeply implanted in some cheek, that i felt a bit violated, but that doesn't mean i didn't like it ;)

i was crying "i didn't sign up for this" and "i didn't say stop" at the same time
 
well, i think i sort of got what i signed up for in any case. it usually takes me a long time to finish anything i've written, and i have a very hard time at being objective about it. and the people i give it to read give way too much of a fuck about my feelings (i'm sort of the same way when a friend presents me with something he labored over) to really tell me their honest opinion. it was nice that you guys were still nice enough not to rip me a new asshole, because i basically rewrote (although pretty massively) the first short story i ever actually finished with 18.
im pretty sure if i spent my customary six to eight weeks on it, it may have been better, but then again, it may have not. i'm actually sort of looking forward to writing/critiquiting the next thing, and i hope i'm out of this motherfucking withdrawal by then.
 
I made the tragic mistake of consuming a datura bre, something I'm adamantly always been against, but for a few soulmates to help them gauge their doses.

Worst fucking thing ever. Not recomended.

I read maxe's story and the humor of it was WONDERFUL. I'll try and write a review but I'm half blind due to that heartless scum pf a unforgiving and treacherous deity... Also had a short story cooking as well as my big time novel.

So sorry guys I know this is a new thing and I'm fully committed and it's helping my writing and self-esteem wonderfully, as is getting to know a few of you friends intimately through the art of missives and prose.

But yeah, half blind. Fuck that drug. People who take it must be masochists of the highest order.
 
I've been consuming datura for the past four days. Really enjoying it. You need to treat it with respect and be very careful with dose. Most people ignore the warnings and dive straight into the deep end. Kind of like drinking a bottle of whisky the first time you get drunk then deciding alcohol is evil. Don't blame the drug man. There's nothing wrong with datura. Sorry you had a bad trip though.
 
datura

29fs7fa.gif
 
You have NO IDEA.

I sacrificed myself for the sake of harm reduction. These damned fools need to educate themselves, for good or ill.

Also:

"This is a very bad book you're writing," I said to myself.
"I know," I said.
"You're afraid you'll kill yourself the way your mother did," I said.
"I know," I said.

Vonneguts 9 Rules for writing a short story:

In his book Bagombo Snuff Box: Uncollected Short Fiction, Vonnegut listed eight rules for writing a short story:

Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.

Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.

Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.

Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.

Start as close to the end as possible.

Be a Sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader may see what they are made of.
Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.

Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.


Vonnegut qualifies the list by adding that Flannery O'Connor broke all these rules except the first, and that great writers tend to do that. He wrote an earlier version of writing tips that was even more straightforward and contained only seven rules (though it advised using Elements of Style for more indepth advice).


I started a short story out of the blue yesterday and I'm almost done. If anyone is having trouble meeting their deadline, let me know and we can switch spots.

Now that my eyes have retained normal function, I'm off to write on Maxe's hilarious tale.

Selah.
 
I've been consuming datura for the past four days. Really enjoying it. You need to treat it with respect and be very careful with dose. Most people ignore the warnings and dive straight into the deep end. Kind of like drinking a bottle of whisky the first time you get drunk then deciding alcohol is evil. Don't blame the drug man. There's nothing wrong with datura. Sorry you had a bad trip though.

Mine was a small dose. My trippsitters were fucking stupid. I found my keys eventually and was out all night, woke up 5pm the next. My mom told me I got back at six. I told the bitch not to call ANYONE I'm on thin ice as it is what with the latent alcoholism. Trip report forthcoming on that.

"NEVER CALL 911. EVER."
Sat above Hunter Thomson's old phone. May he write in peace.

BTW forever: I didn't blame the drug, its a sacrament. Just not for me. I tend to use colorful language that sometimes denotes an actually feeling of hatred. I don't hate or fear. I only am.

She also picked the datura herself and no one but a botanist in my eyes is qualified for this. It's easily obtainable online. I'd have personally thrown some condensed san pedro in there for good measure, then it may have been more to my liking.

I feel the same way about salvia. Deep respect for the goddess (these plants have a feminine energy to me, unlike Ibogaine and a few others). Not inclined to touch it again, however.
 
(edit: I posted this before your above comments about datura...)

Never been a big fan of the "rules" of any medium, though Vonnegut's guidelines can be used to good effect sometimes. They're too specific for me. "A character must" / "A sentence must". O'Connor wrote a number of essays on her technique. I remember one in which she said something along the lines of: "Don't think. Just write a word, and see where it takes you." This is better advice than Vonnegut's. The worst thing you can do, often, is to fill your head with literary theory before you even start constructing the narrative. I learn theory, so I can forget it.

You have NO IDEA.

I sacrificed myself for the sake of harm reduction.

It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure I understand your logic about datura. You guinea pigged a brew, like throwing yourself in front of a bullet. You admit you don't have much experience with the drug. And you conclude that it is the "worst fucking thing ever" and "scum". "Fuck this drug" you say. I've read so many reports of inexperienced users taking relatively large - or unknown - amounts of datura and concluding the same thing. I don't really see the difference between you and them. Aside from the fact that you intentionally had a bad experience to prove to them that the drug is evil - which it isn't. Maybe I'm missing something. It just frustrates me when I hear people say things like "Fuck Amanita Muscaria! This drug sucks balls!" or "Datura is the devil!" Because both drugs are actually quite wonderful if treated with the proper respect. It makes more sense to me to educate people by showing them how to consume delerients, while taking the proper precautions. While your intentions were noble and selfless, I think you went about it the wrong way. You need to be concerned about yourself as well as others when exercising harm reduction techniques. Intentionally inducing a bad trip with a substance you know nothing about is not a good idea.

Again, I'm sorry you had a bad trip. But, don't take it out on the drug.

Back to the theory stuff. My problem with these rules is that a lot of students take them on board. And, as a result, stories end up resembling each other - at skeleton level. Predictability and cliche result from adhering to guidelines. My least favorite of those rules is: "Every character should want something. Even if it is a glass of water." I get that he's trying to raise tensions to a maximum level. If every character in your story has a motivation towards something, then you can play them off each other. And their interactions become more complex, psychologically. But that doesn't need to be the case. It gets boring, if we know that everyone has an agenda. And, it's not realistic. Some writer's tend to overload meaning into their work. Like Shakespeare. "Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted." People do waste time in real life. Stories should make good economic use of the space required for them to exist, but there needs to be room for the narrative to breathe. A lot of "great writers" try so hard to be clever that they end up suffocating characters and other aspects of their work.

Glad you're feeling better, man. My double vision is fading also. I'm having morphine nightmares now. Scary stuff. But, at the same time, kind of exilerating. Need sleep.
 
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*prods hydro with a stick*

Week 1 ( 9/7-15/7 ) - Max Power / xxxyyy
Week 2 ( 16/7-22/7 ) - Hydro / ForEverAfter
Week 3 ( 23/7-29/7 ) - thujone / Thou
Week 4 ( 30/7-5/8 ) - Volunteers?

...

Week 8 ( 27/8-2/9 ) - L2R
 
(edit: I posted this before your above comments about datura...)

Never been a big fan of the "rules" of any medium, though Vonnegut's guidelines can be used to good effect sometimes. They're too specific for me. "A character must" / "A sentence must". O'Connor wrote a number of essays on her technique. I remember one in which she said something along the lines of: "Don't think. Just write a word, and see where it takes you." This is better advice than Vonnegut's. The worst thing you can do, often, is to fill your head with literary theory before you even start constructing the narrative. I learn theory, so I can forget it.



It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure I understand your logic about datura. You guinea pigged a brew, like throwing yourself in front of a bullet. You admit you don't have much experience with the drug. And you conclude that it is the "worst fucking thing ever" and "scum". "Fuck this drug" you say. I've read so many reports of inexperienced users taking relatively large - or unknown - amounts of datura and concluding the same thing. I don't really see the difference between you and them. Aside from the fact that you intentionally had a bad experience to prove to them that the drug is evil - which it isn't. Maybe I'm missing something. It just frustrates me when I hear people say things like "Fuck Amanita Muscaria! This drug sucks balls!" or "Datura is the devil!" Because both drugs are actually quite wonderful if treated with the proper respect. It makes more sense to me to educate people by showing them how to consume delerients, while taking the proper precautions. While your intentions were noble and selfless, I think you went about it the wrong way. You need to be concerned about yourself as well as others when exercising harm reduction techniques. Intentionally inducing a bad trip with a substance you know nothing about is not a good idea.

Again, I'm sorry you had a bad trip. But, don't take it out on the drug.

Back to the theory stuff. My problem with these rules is that a lot of students take them on board. And, as a result, stories end up resembling each other - at skeleton level. Predictability and cliche result from adhering to guidelines. My least favorite of those rules is: "Every character should want something. Even if it is a glass of water." I get that he's trying to raise tensions to a maximum level. If every character in your story has a motivation towards something, then you can play them off each other. And their interactions become more complex, psychologically. But that doesn't need to be the case. It gets boring, if we know that everyone has an agenda. And, it's not realistic. Some writer's tend to overload meaning into their work. Like Shakespeare. "Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted." People do waste time in real life. Stories should make good economic use of the space required for them to exist, but there needs to be room for the narrative to breathe. A lot of "great writers" try so hard to be clever that they end up suffocating characters and other aspects of their work.

Glad you're feeling better, man. My double vision is fading also. I'm having morphine nightmares now. Scary stuff. But, at the same time, kind of exilerating. Need sleep.

I agree with you in the sense that I used faulty language, I'm highly dramatic at times, I use it for my writing.

I agree it's a sacrament, would rather give belladonna or mandrake a go but titrate up. I was irresponsible and let this woman keep dosing me only later exclaiming "you took a rather small dose." Foolish to trust someone of that ilk, but I have very few friends/soulmates in the world and I thought I could help.

I don't condemn it at all, rather my bad experience. I didn't intend to marginalize, I just had a strong first experienced, and it wasn't as though I didn't like it, it was just to delerient to bring anything useful back from the experience. I have an 8 hour period of anterograde amnesia, leading me to believe this was a HIGH dose.

Different strokes. But I agree with you about the harsh language, I was just striking out at my actions and projecting them onto a spiritual plant, which is fairly ironic, but irony be damned. I had work to do that day and should have said NOPE as soon as they asked. Sorry, not your man. Then move on. Nice guys finish last.

I also don't know why they wouldn't just brew ayahausca, as that to me is the ultimate spiritual antisceptic, shit throw some mandrake root in there, but we're getting off topic now.

Let the record state I have no set logic about datura, it just seemed after reading copious amounts of information over ten years, that it didn't "sound fun." IE: dysphoric. This is a sweeping generalization, and a wrong one. I should have taken an allergy test, waited six hours. Then try again a week later. I was dumb and didn't, and got what was coming to me.

My actions are my only true belongings.


Thanks for the PM and the calendar update.


On the vonnegut stuff:

I just found them interesting. I haven't any formal training in writing, aside from reading I don't know, a shit ton of books all my life. Most of my prose and other literary device I use comes from this on a subconscious level, and any writing guidelines I take with a grain of salt.
 
Cool. Though, mandrake root contains the same active ingredients as datura. It's slightly easier to dose, I guess, because it is less potent. But datura ain't difficult. Most of the trip reports I've read, people consume relatively large doses (30+ seeds) within the first couple of hours. Considering the variability of alkaloid content, and the potential dangers, I aim to test out every batch by starting off with 5 seeds and working my way slowly up until I am satisfied that I can correctly gauge where I want to be. Six hours makes sense to me. But, a week is probably overkill.

Anyway, enough about off topic shit... We're hijacking.

Workshop Thread #3 - "The Idiot Savant" by ForEverAfter
 
good call on two a week. i'll be joining in the ForEverAfter workshop thread sometime today, but i am not going to have my story finished this week. embarrassing and all that. sorry. i am well into a story though, and would like to re-sign up once everyone else has has or on a week that someone else realizes in time that they will not have a story.
 
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