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Leftist Discussion Thread

The difference is that dolphins and cats cannot be said to have a sense of right and wrong, so they cannot really be accused of making moral choices.

Assesments of their behaviour are filtered through human bias, where we project our own motivations onto the behaviour of others. The dolphins were thought to be sexually frustrated and killing out of that frustration; cats will appear to play with their prey by jumping at it and throwing it away from themselves, but they have an instinct to protect themselves from dying/struggling prey by ensuring it is dead before they feed. None of these is really murder for fun.

My point was that humans are both the best and worst animal due to our capacity for morality.
 
I'd agree with cats, but not dolphins. Dolphins are the smartest non-primate animal and seem to have their own language and everything, and with language comes culture. People don't give animals enough credit, thinking humans are some kind of special, mystical being, superior to every other animal on the planet. Lots of other animals pass cumulative information to successive generations and apes i believe have even officially entered the stone age. We humans have a lot of advantages, sure, but lots other animals are capable of the same things as humans, just maybe not to the same extent.
 
swilow said:
The difference is that dolphins and cats cannot be said to have a sense of right and wrong, so they cannot really be accused of making moral choices.

Assesments of their behaviour are filtered through human bias, where we project our own motivations onto the behaviour of others. The dolphins were thought to be sexually frustrated and killing out of that frustration; cats will appear to play with their prey by jumping at it and throwing it away from themselves, but they have an instinct to protect themselves from dying/struggling prey by ensuring it is dead before they feed. None of these is really murder for fun.

My point was that humans are both the best and worst animal due to our capacity for morality.
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Get of your high horse human, dolphins keep on surprising us with their intelligence, they might just be the second smartest thing on the planet. Most primates aren't even close to dolphins when it comes to intelligence.
And what would you call a cat playing catch and release with a mouse, which you could call a predator instinct but not eating it after the kill? Because they do that.
We need to start giving other animals more credit.

And let's not forget, we have instincts too, instincts that are capable of clouding our superior intelligence.
 
^Totally do give animals credit, I certainly don't kill or consume them. I really think its anthropomorphic to assume that animals behave in a moral way similar to our own or to judge their behaviour according to our moral standards. Our morality is human morality. Its impossible to determine the non-utilitarian motivations for an animal to do something, we can surmise recreation but in the example of the dolphins, that wasn't what the article said.

A cat killing a mouse is not gleefully tormenting an indivudal lifeform, its killing 'something'. A cat does not have self-awareness that we recognise, therefore its unlikely that it recongnises the selfhood of others.

A dolphin certainly appears to have a high level of self-awareness; I would imagine that self-awareness is gradual, and there are many steps below (and above) our own level. But if you consider the sheer manifestation of human intelligence in comparison to dolphins, it is really incomparable. Which is me repeating myself.

I certainly don't think humans are more good or better than other animals, you appear to have misread my post by telling me to get off my high horse. Our 'intelligence' and capacities aren't really good or positive attributes, they certainly don't make us all that happy or make the world a better place. They are simply what has evolved, in the same manner that dolphin/worm/plankton attributes evolved. We're all animals.
 
tathra said:
I'd agree with cats, but not dolphins. Dolphins are the smartest non-primate animal and seem to have their own language and everything, and with language comes culture. People don't give animals enough credit, thinking humans are some kind of special, mystical being, superior to every other animal on the planet. Lots of other animals pass cumulative information to successive generations and apes i believe have even officially entered the stone age. We humans have a lot of advantages, sure, but lots other animals are capable of the same things as humans, just maybe not to the same extent.
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I agree. People really don't give animals enough credit. Apes are actually quite human like, but other animals that aren't as "human like" I would argue may not necessarily be "less intelligent" so much as that they have a different type of intelligence. Animals are incredibly intelligent in terms of knowing what they need to know for their environment, and in a sense, it would be difficult to make a claim that animals are "less intelligent" than humans. Frankly, I feel all animals have their own language of sorts. Cats and dogs are limited to one syllable sounds, so they are kind of restricted when it comes to verbal communication. However, they have their own language in terms of non-verbal communication. While I'm not a vegetarian, I think that farm animals deserve to be treated humanely. Cows, chickens, and pigs that are raised for meat should be given free range, and they deserve to be treated humanely. Major corporations mistreat animals that are used for meat, and I feel that laws should be put in place to stop these abuses once and for all. It is animal cruelty, and it should be regarded as such in the eyes of the law. Even chickens that are raised for eggs and dairy cattle are often treated inhumanely by major corporations, and I feel that this too is animal cruelty.
 
Come on guy humans are apes. Along with gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees and orangutans we are all part of the family of great apes.

The more that becomes common knowledge the less we will feel detached and superior to all other life on earth.

swilow said:
Humans are fucked, but equally we are the only animal that would ever offer help to the sick, peace and comfort to the dying, resources to strangers, etc. We are also the only animals that appear to rape and torture for fun too. We are such conflicted animals. I can only feel deep compassion for all humans struggling and battling through pain and suffering, for no reason and with no real destination, until we die knowing full well that this death can come at any time for anyone. Given our lot, its amazing that we can get up in the morning.

Good luck humans!
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But, but.. there are plenty of animals that do all of those things.

Altruism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmVWGvO8Yhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCDcRxiK3Ac

Rape and torture for fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TuRw6OAL0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYakBQ3ggV4
 
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^Do you think those animals are raping other animals? Would you be comfortable saying an animal is morally responsible for rape? Is it raping, or is it simply performing a basic action? I think animals do not posses the moral dimension that humans do. Its absurd to even call it rape, and misguided to assign human-like qualities to animals. It does animals an injustice, they are not to be seen as lesser-humans but creatures with value in and of themselves.

Altruism isn't indicative of everything, in humans or otherwise. For social animals, any such transaction has beneficial effects to the self. But doing something with no utility whatsoever, such as looking after someone who is severely incapacitated is rather uniquely human. I think it does occur amongst primates and other high intelligence species, but the extent to which humans do these things is unparalled. And we expect all of us to do these things, they are inherent and appear ancient in how reflexive they are.

The only reason I started saying this was as a response. It is because its really easy to say that humans are evil cancerous and violent, because its true- in a sense, it is how life is here on earth, kill or be killed. But humans are not all bad. We do some amazing and good things, we just need to do more. I went on to try and explain that its not even meaningful to say humans are good or bad because only humans are able to exhibit these qualities, so they hardly appear to be absolute or valuable markers of anything important, so why worry.
 
Consumption and desire? Oh, just a little. Bring it on.

What about Bataille? Have you read any and if so, what are your thoughts?

When I was in academia, I was working with and around the nexus of Marxism and psychoanalysis (Slovoj Zizek was the external examiner for my PhD, if that gives you a flavour). Don't expect great brains. I suspect I've smoked most of the grey matter away. And, I have forgotten SO much. But really happy to chat and exchange ideas.
 
I'm a conservative / libertarian, but you moved my post into a leftist discussion thread to revive it. Typical, always thinking of the collective. Don't do that again.
 
ElectraCute said:
Consumption and desire? Oh, just a little. Bring it on.

What about Bataille? Have you read any and if so, what are your thoughts?

When I was in academia, I was working with and around the nexus of Marxism and psychoanalysis (Slovoj Zizek was the external examiner for my PhD, if that gives you a flavour). Don't expect great brains. I suspect I've smoked most of the grey matter away. And, I have forgotten SO much. But really happy to chat and exchange ideas.
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I never really liked the fusion of Marxism with post-modern bodies of thought. People like Lacan (and his acolyte Zizek), Guattari, Deleuze etc. just seemed to mask weak ideas with dense academic jargon. I went through a brief phase of being interested in Foucault and Agamben (as interpreted through "Tiqqun") but it didn't last long.

One French left wing writer who I do remember having a very lucid and intelligent writing style was Gilles Dauve
 
Just to say Hi to everybody and to introduce myself.

I just registered (came across MAPS and the Forum by accident), and would describe myself as anarcho-communist. I think people should self-govern in a non-hierarchical organisation, and I consider professional politicians and bourgeois parties as delusional, extremely corrupt and downright harmful.

I believe culture, economy, research and technology, and social policies need fundamental re-evaluation and redirection if humankind is to survive. I think all this can't and won't be achieved in the current frame of the plutocratic hyper-bureaucratic bourgeois state since it has been structured specifically to resist and undermine any call for a change.

Thank you elstongunn39 for starting this thread.
 
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