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Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

Yeah, kratom is a full-blown partial opioid (make out of that sentence what you want).

Opioids unfortunately don't need to be full agonists to be habit forming (see bupe - tramadol is a bad example because it metabolizes to a full agonist but Kratom has that too in 7-HO-mitragynine which, like the HO-arylcycolohexylamines, is a full agonist). In animals mitragynine wasn't dependency forming but 7-HO was. Now the tricky point, your body metabolizes each of these into the other compound, so it's kinda pointless. Kratom is a full opioid, just herewith I forbid you to use this information in any anti-drug context, Kratom is good to be legal and should stay legal, just with a warning.

I am currently recovering from morphine maintenance and while morphine is way less bad than methadone, so is probably kratom than morphine, they all are no joke but methadone is a horrible beast while morphine is made by your own body (I can post the link again if somebody's interested) and all things which are made by ourselves (not in a lab, that is) tend to be less bad than completely exogenous things like e.g. fentanylderivates. Or methadone. From what I get from up to 600mg/d morphine I was surprised that it wasn't more but also surprised in a bad way because while anxiety would be the absolute worst, this depressive misery is what comes next to that. No anxiety though, for what I am grateful. There would be drugs which make you skip withdrawal, probably, as probably as I expected anxiety to be a major problem of opioid withdrawal. It's not tested so far as I only got heavily addicted when I stopped having arylcyclohexylamines around (again, make out of that what you want).
 
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After a few years of daily use at around 15g a day towards the end after 2 days of not having I do not feel all that much different. Some aches and pains but those are why I took kratom in the first place.
I would not compare medial dose kratom usage to an "actual" opioid in any sense. They are just two completely different fruits, imo/e.
I posted somewhere that I cannot find to edit that I was at 5g doses when it was 3-4g 4-5 x a day. So maybe up to 20g on a "bad day"...?
I dropped it down to 1g 3-4 x day til I ran out 3 days later.
Not using anything to cover symptoms. Got pregabalin, benzos, thc oil weed etc but the only thing I am doing is the weed. Been a week or more since I touched the pregab. Oh yeah, I do still dose and did my phenibut hcl this AM as usual 1.3g.
I do not see any other reason for them to schedule kratom (or ban it) other than the need for greed. The only way I can tell that I am in a wd state at all is that weed intake drops dramatically as it makes me a bit nervous in times as this.
Hell, even Thailand decriminalized it recently (this year? ) after decades of being outlawed to keep the opium machine running. I mean... wtf is really going on?
We gotta keep that legal heroin running the pipes, peeps. Mr johnny pharma is gettin paid!
I would not personally compare kratom to any psychoactive substance... it is leaf of it's own and a very sweet one indeed. I will miss her. :cry:
 
6am-64-14m said:
I would not personally compare kratom to any psychoactive substance... it is leaf of it's own and a very sweet one indeed. I will miss her. :cry:
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Why were you stopping Kratom then even? I agree that it's unique but personally I would like it to be a bit more like real opioids, I just hate that built-in antipsychotic even when one becomes tolerant to it fairly easily (to the dopamine antagonism, not the kratom itself).

Interesting and nice to year that you didn't get any symptoms after even a few years straight. Guess we just have only the complaining people around and these who like you don't get anything bad don't complain thus aren't noticeable unfortunately, this skews the statistic.

Yeah, read that about Thailand. Should be more widely known but legalization just doesn't make good bad press.
 
Thanks for the perspective guys. It's been helping me with anxiety. I'm using it twice a day and already planned to get more. But I was curious about the physical/psychological aspects of it. Peace. Edit: Kind of personal but masturbating never felt good before now. This is a good thing for me
 
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daveykronick said:
You do not need to worry about overdosing on kratom as there have been no reported overdose deaths. The worst that can happen is you get really nauseated and throw up a bunch. It is not an opiate or opiod although it does affect the mu-opiod receptors..

"Kratom contains many alkaloids including mitragynine (once thought to be the primary active constituent), mitraphylline, and 7-hydroxymitragynine (which is currently the most likely candidate for the primary active chemical in the plant).[1] Although 7-hydroxymitragynine and mitragynine are structurally related to yohimbine and other tryptamines, their pharmacology is quite different, acting primarily as mu-opioid receptor agonists. Other active chemicals in kratom include raubasine (best known from Rauwolfia serpentina) and some yohimbe alkaloids such as corynantheidine.[2]" - Wikipedia
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There is one report of death Victor Hacala https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1781088/plante-kratom-victime-quebec
 
I've recently had great luck with reducing, down from 2+ teaspoons to half or 2/3rds of one then redosing after 45-60 minutes twice to by far have the best effects. Anyone else experience this? Have I finally just found my sweet spot? I'm using a locally grown green Maeng Da that is pretty fantastic. And this works BETTER then the larger doses, though it doesn't put me to sleep like those do. Did a little research and apparently the dosage can completely change what it does? I forget which different receptors it works on but I just can't believe the difference. Anyone else have a similar experience? Can maybe expound on the specifics?
 
Kahedhros said:
I've recently had great luck with reducing, down from 2+ teaspoons to half or 2/3rds of one then redosing after 45-60 minutes twice to by far have the best effects. Anyone else experience this? Have I finally just found my sweet spot? I'm using a locally grown green Maeng Da that is pretty fantastic. And this works BETTER then the larger doses, though it doesn't put me to sleep like those do. Did a little research and apparently the dosage can completely change what it does? I forget which different receptors it works on but I just can't believe the difference. Anyone else have a similar experience? Can maybe expound on the specifics?
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Hey noob. Glad to see you branching out. Nice post in NMI.

Yeppers, imho, kratom is dose dependent. Low doses 3-5 grams does one thing and 7-10 grams does the total opposite. Doesn't matter if it's green, white or red. Quality of vendor matters.....but color does not. That's just me though. My specific biological makeup.

Kratom has 40 different alkaloids. I googled each one to see what it did to those pesky little receptors. Some of the alkaloids cross the BBB, some don't. Most peeps use it for the mitragynine ( partial opioid ) but some use it for the other 39 alkaloids as well. Some of them can be really speedy....at least to me. But I also don't do any other drugs besides kratom. ( and a pinner of weed now and again ). So I don't have a tolerance to any other drug anymore so I think I get more out of it.

Toodles
 
Disclaimer: Im a newb across the board but am just discovering what kratom is and am quite fascinated. I have not tried it yet.

In the spirit of being a newb, some newb questions I couldn’t find answers to (and didn’t have the time to scroll through all 42 pages):

1) I have what I’d call a recreational oxycodone habit. 5-7.5mg per day 2-3x per week. I take a couple of weeks off whenever I feel tolerance building. Lately I’ve been liking it less and less. Since I’m on Wellbutrin (bupropion), I find the highs less enjoyable and effective, often just giving me mild nausea or headache. My best oxy highs have been very subtle and that’s all I’m really interested in: mild euphoria, noticeable boost in mood and productivity lasting 4-6 hours. Would love to get off oxy entirely though while still being able to experience this. Might Kratom be a good fit?

2) Even at my low doses, I find oxy withdrawals to suck. It’s inevitably 2+ days of sleeping all day, being in a bad mood, not being motivated, etc. No major physical withdrawal symptoms like stomach problems, sleep issues, or anything, luckily. How are kratom withdrawals if I am to be an occasional user?

3) I take fluoxetine (Prozac) and bupropion (Wellbutrin) for mild depression and less mild anxiety. The sexual side effects of fluoxetine suck. And bupropion occasionally makes the anxiety worse. Might Kratom be a good sub for this to help with depression, anxiety, lack of motivation, etc? Would also love to get off these.

4) I understand it is not illegal in the US, though some states ban it. Mine (NY) doesn’t seem to. That said, how does one even obtain kratom? Am I going to the black market for this or is this something you need to get through an open minded doctor? Any risk of buying tainted product (I am deathly scared of anything that could be laced with fentanyl).

I will continue to read up and educate in the meantime but these were my burning questions. Thanks!
 
Has someone else noticed what effect chinine has on the effects of Kratom?

I'm 99% sure that it has a positive effect on how the Kratom is felt - I'd say it feels somewhat stronger, i.e. depending on the strain and/or actual dose, it's more euphoric, stimulating and/or sedating!

It's sufficient to drink the drink (that contains chinine) before you take your dose of Kratom and you don't have to drink massive amounts.

For example, I'm drinking about 250ml of tonic water, and this seems to do the trick!
 
THCified said:
Has someone else noticed what effect chinine has on the effects of Kratom?

I'm 99% sure that it has a positive effect on how the Kratom is felt - I'd say it feels somewhat stronger, i.e. depending on the strain and/or actual dose, it's more euphoric, stimulating and/or sedating!

It's sufficient to drink the drink (that contains chinine) before you take your dose of Kratom and you don't have to drink massive amounts.

For example, I'm drinking about 250ml of tonic water, and this seems to do the trick!
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are you talking about quinine?

the "natural" version being chinine?
 
I don't know if there's a kratom tapering megathread in BL (it should be, but anyway..)
I want to share some of my experience with kratom in terms of tapering and managing a regular intake:

1- Kratom is not going to feel always the same, the honeymoon ends and once you start taking daily, it's quite different. I think it's not only because of the tolerance affecting the mu-opioid receptors but specially everything related with the adrenal glands, so you can start having adrenal fatigue if you try to push the adrenergic system with kratom, I mean, if you look for the kratom pick me up effect to be like in the beginning.

2- So then, if you manage to keep the dose more or less the same when you find your sweet spot, just keep it there. If it really stops working then you NEED a t-break. There's some chemical support for managing tolerance: magnesium glycinate, agmatine, doing exercise, black seed oil blahblahblah, but no, you just NEED A T-BREAK, more than anything else.

3-Talking about exercise.. I think kratom was MADE for doing physical labour, it's how it's traditionally used and it's how it works the best, no doubt about that. If you stay quiet you're not going to take advantage of kratom as well as doing something (unless you want pain-killing and relaxation with a red-gold strain, that's different).

4-Redosing doesn't work so well if you don't take quite close to the first dose, otherwise you're just forcing tolerance to set up, and that's going to happen if you dose more than 2 times a day. Don't worry, if you need to do it like that, accept it, nothing bad about it, but the kratom rush will dissapear.

5- If you get a bad batch, kratom may feel dissapointing so you may increase the dose which is eventually going to affect your tolerance, and probably not just because of the mitragynine but because of all the rest of actives, some of which are opioid ANTAGONIST so taking more can be counterproductive and you'll find yourself taking kratom in a absurd and fiendish way, it's not going to work, use that bad batch for tapering or mixing with a good one.

Now about the taper and wd:

There's infinite ways of doing the taper:
Using stem and vein, using javanica/hirsuta, using weaker strains like yellows, using agmatine or black seed oil as potentiators/tolerance reducers, using kava kava..
I will focus on what I used the last times.
Javanica is what I'm using now, I mix it increasing the amount of javanica till I use 0 of speciosa. 75/25, 50/50, 25/75... 0/100. It works, it's not kratom but some alkaloids are the same, so your body doesn't necessarily ask for more mitragynine, or not so brutally.
Black seed oil is nice when you're tapering specially at night, taking it before sleeping or when you woke up in withdrawal or night sweats, 1 teaspoon is nice and enough to go back to sleep without too much discomfort, it's also very useful while on wd's if they are light (mine always are as I never went higher than 15gpd).

Ashwagandha, BSO (Black seed oil), l-theanine and kava kava are perfect for gaba or gaba-like agonism that you may need for sleeping and/or killing the horrible restless feeling during the day. I've found that if I take kava kava during the night I don't wake up feeling anxious while tapering or during wd.
I've read that voacanga seeds (1 gram) also do it, I'm gonna try this time, they have zen-like feelings inducing qualities. (i'm tapering now, aiming for a month t-break).
For energy an motivation I've heard that DHEA works and I've found that Mucuna Pruriens is the best help for that. I also take some caffeine source, but not coffee as it doesn't let me sleep: guayusa, kola nut or hierba mate, would be better. I love yohimbe but probably is better used after the worst part of wd since it seems that it can increase anxiety. It's likely that muira puama, tongkat ali and catuaba could work for some issues and to rebalance the adrenal system as well as hormones.
I think that most of kratom wd symptoms (of low doses) are not only mu-opioid wreck but also adrenergic and serotonin (anti-depressant like) unbalances. Inflammatory rebound can also set it so taking some ALA or NAC will help a lot as well as whatever anti-inflammatory herbs like cat's claw or turmeric + piperine.
If you never had problems with benzos I guess that if insomnia is killing you and ashwagandha, BSO, kava kava, mulungu or calea+klip dagga joints doesn't help on that... well, then take 0.5-2 mg of some lorazepam or lormetazepam if you find it around, it won't kill you..

If you have any question I'm here to help
 
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What am I doing wrong with kratom? I've read the guides, and I've tried different strains, and small doses, medium doses, large doses.... but I never feel any effects, either stimulating, sedating or analgesic... 😕
 
Forever Changes said:
What am I doing wrong with kratom? I've read the guides, and I've tried different strains, and small doses, medium doses, large doses.... but I never feel any effects, either stimulating, sedating or analgesic... 😕
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Do you take opioids on a regular basis?
A high tolerance is the most likely explanation for a lack of effects.
Have you tried different kratom vendors as well?
 
4meSM said:
Do you take opioids on a regular basis?
A high tolerance is the most likely explanation for a lack of effects.
Have you tried different kratom vendors as well?
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no I don't take opioids. Unfortunately here in the UK Kratom was semi-banned a few years ago so we now only have a choice of one vendor, although they have a number of different strains.

Last night I took 9 grams of Sumatra Red. Is that a reasonable dose, or too much?
 
Forever Changes said:
no I don't take opioids. Unfortunately here in the UK Kratom was semi-banned a few years ago so we now only have a choice of one vendor, although they have a number of different strains.

Last night I took 9 grams of Sumatra Red. Is that a reasonable dose, or too much?
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9g would be a bit too much for me to take at once and I’ve been doing it for years. I personally take 3-5g per dose, but some people need pretty high doses to get the desired effects.
I’ve tried red sumatra a couple of times and I wasn’t impressed. IME the best types I’ve had from european vendors are green malay and red thai, followed by the “maeng da” ones (green and red).

It could also have something to do with your cytochrome P450 enzymes (in the liver). Have you done codeine and/or tramadol before?
 
4meSM said:
9g would be a bit too much for me to take at once and I’ve been doing it for years. I personally take 3-5g per dose, but some people need pretty high doses to get the desired effects.
I’ve tried red sumatra a couple of times and I wasn’t impressed. IME the best types I’ve had from european vendors are green malay and red thai, followed by the “maeng da” ones (green and red).

It could also have something to do with your cytochrome P450 enzymes (in the liver). Have you done codeine and/or tramadol before?
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I've tried codeine and Tramadol and got nothing from them. I was aware that not everybody metabolised codeine properly - and figured I was one of them - but I didn't realise you had to have certain enzymes to metabolise kratom too!

I haven't heard about possible metabolism problems on the kratom info sites I've read - and when I google 'kratom liver' all that comes up are articles about potential liver damage from kratom (which as far as I'm aware is probably a scare story).

I'm not saying you're wrong, but is this well known? Do you have a link for the enzyme theory anywhere?
 
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White vein maeng da is all I want as of late funny I guess not the full on stimulation green brings on but not a lazy red? I feel trashy buying headshop powders I limit myself to an ounce at a time took over a year to learn how to eyeball teaspoons so as not to get sick and puke I would always overdo it never fun
 
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