Kratom - First time- W/ding Bupe-addict

[Flaga121]

Time of Administration: 3:15 -
ROA: Orange Juice + teaspoon Bali + Half teaspoon indo (over course of about an hour)

Important facts about writer/subject: Withdrawing from a Bupe 2 year bupe habit, dose was 1mg (sublingual/insulated) a day, lowest before today was .015mg. I am a habitual Cannabis smoker, so assume I am dabbing hash oil throughout the entire trip report, I will only note it if the dab seems to have a different effect. I have smoked for years, a fat dab is like smoking a cigg, doesn't effect me much more then keeping me "normal". I just received my first shipment of Kratom today, having used it once in the past but to no effect because I couldn't truly stomach the tea. I'm using a blend of two suppliers products, I can't tell anyone (even through PMs) which suppliers, rules are rules.

Ingestion Period: So it's been about 15mins since I started drinking my strange Kratom/Oj/Aspartame mix ( Way better then tea) and I'm feeling a buzz. Now normally I would think this has to be placebo, except I don't get placebo when withdrawing from subs, I get miserable. When I was making this drink I was very confident I would be back in bed sweating with nasty NLS (or taking Bupe) within an hour, now I'm quite sure I won't be. I feel a stim high at the moment, but I'm none too surprised, I often felt that same energized yet no anxiety effect with my Bupe. I could be wrong but I think its an partial agonist thing. Placebo can make me feel a little happier, but I've been sick before, and it's NEVER cured RLS. Even when I blew shitty dope trying to cover Bupe sickness (in the worst days) I couldn't placebo my way out of it.

I'm realizing my dose is a bit high for my current tolerance. Part of me is sad I hurt my taper, the other part happy because I don't need the rest of my Bupe. I'll happily trade addictions, no one will ever ask me why I'm drinking some plant mix thing. Everyone in my clinic thinks I'm a hippy anyway (I think the music festivals and Disco Biscuits addiction does it for them) so drinking some random plant with OJ won't make them think I'm a drug user. Besides, while I didn't listen well in any of my ethics classes, I'm under the impression I am far more likely to lose my license to practice psychology over Cannabis then Kratom.

I'm realizing this drink is going to last me for fucking ever. Least I didn't get ripped off.

Why is one of the Kratoms powders (from same vender) kief and the other leafy powder? Isn't it the same plant grown in different parts of the world? Or are there legit different strains? Or are these venders lazy fucks who didn't finishes powdering the big bag, but did for my sample?

Time: 2 Hours Later

Wow, I took way more then was required to hold me I guess, because I feel fucking amazing. The euphoria is distinctly stronger then I've felt on Bupe in months. I'm beyond shocked that 1 and 1/2 teaspoons of Kratom seems much stronger then .5mg of suboxone. The w/d is gone, more gone then it's been in days. I could be upset because its a "bump on the road to sobriety" but I wasn't giving up my Cannabis, nor my periodic dissociative/psychedelic use seeing as I don't drink and would still like to party, so I was never going to be sober anyway.

Just realized I haven't dabbed in hours...WHAT? Weird. How did I forget to dab? Very talkative, called a bunch of the investors for my new side venture, and chatted enjoyably for awhile. One of them just ordered some Kratom at my suggestion, so thats always cool. Time to dab. Wait my house is WAY too silent. I'm more intoxicated then I expected by half. I'm kind of sweating, happens when I withdraw too, so I don't know whats causing that. Maybe my house is mad hot too.

3 Hours Later: Stim effect has died down. Still no signs of my w/d. I feel good, less euphoric but also less intoxicated, which I'm happy about. Part of me wants to make another cup of Kratom- juice, which is odd because I never had compulsion to re-dose with suboxone until my habitual times. I think it has as much to do with the novelty as anything. I've never enjoyed an uppity feeling quite this much. I'd much prefer to take Bupe, but this is an amazing feeling too (for the feeling alone, i'd prefer Kratom for the lifestyle).

5 Hours Later: Feeling W/d creeping on again time for redose.

 

[Xorkoth]

Nice. Careful though, kratom produces its own withdrawals, oh yes it does. Kratom was the "opiate" that led me INTO my addiction. I used to love it so much.

 

[ebola?]

Bupe might be a better choice for tapering, given its partial agonism and long duration.

ebola

 

[Flaga121]

Bupe, in all honestly, is my DOC. Which makes using it for a taper very difficult.

There was a time I preferred the Opiates, but I learned to love the energy of partial agonists.

I'm aware Kratom can cause withdrawal, but it gives me more control over the situation then I've had in awhile. From the fact that I haven't slept in two days I can tell you its not quite covering my W/D either.

 

[bpayne]

Just be very careful with your ordering timing.. Expecting a package in the mail while your sick with Restless legs, and cold sweats.. and Needing that package immediately only to get the mail and find the post office fucked up and it won't be there till say Monday is always a Horrible bitch.. but on the other hand when the mail does run smoothly it's a beautiful thing.. but having your well being depend on the Us Post office is a shitty feeling sometimes.. waiting watching tracking and looking for the mail truck.. I'm currently going through that now.. barely slept last night... Also be aware of tolerance it grows quick. I'd suggest picking up some stem and vein material as it can slowly help reset tolerance during break periods and still staves off withdrawals.. I don't know how well it would do with Bupe withdrawal but it work on kratom wd. I withdrew from a 3 month bupe habit for a Straight month long period once and it was a terrifyingly horrible experience.

 

[Flaga121]

I would prefer to deal with USPS then a dealer, at least I know when the post office says a day or two, they aren't just completely lying about it.
Further due to the price I've already ordered a few pounds, and I plan on restocking well in advance of running out.
Last, before discovering kratom I intended to go through the full w/d, so I would be less then devastated if I had to go a few days without. It'll just lower my tolerance and be good.

Yikes, thats some nasty withdrawal. My Bupe doses were low enough that even cold turkey it would have been tolerable and short lived. The clean life just doesn't appeal to me terribly. I hate drinking, but love partying, so my illicit substances are required. I'd love to be able to feel 100% while sober, but if I am going to be dependent I do have an affinity towards the idea of a plant with multiple active alkaloids rather then a single chemical.

Thanks for the advice about stems and veins, I'll take a look and see if my venders carry em at all, if not I'll have to add a vender to my list.

 

[ebola?]

your local headshop probably has overpriced kratom for when you need to escape sickness in a pinch.

ebola

 

[Flaga121]

Only one of my lcl headshops sells Kratom and it sits next to the bathsalts and k2 selection. I also have a strong personal distain for the shady owner, so to be honest I'd rather let my tolerance drop a bit while I wait for the mailman. But more generally I imagine you are correct and most could easily get some through a quick drive. If I was willing to take a longer drive (about an hour) I could reach other shops. Not sure what they carry. But solid advice.

 

[Xorkoth]

You can also get kratom for much cheaper online in bulk, it's a horrendous rip-off at any head shop. Didn't you say you're down to 0.015mg of bupe? You should just bite the bullet and get off all opiates, you don't need to be sober, just don't do opiates. Honestly I can promise you you'll regret getting into kratom, as an opiate addict. You'll look back on this moment and kick yourself because kratom addiction is no joke.

Just trying to give my honest advice, I've been addicted to opiates for 10 years, most of those years on kratom. If I could change one thing about my past it would be never trying opiates in the first place. My life would be in SUCH a better place right now if I hadn't.

 

[Flaga121]

Edit: Nope I lied. I added a zero by accident. .15mg

I was down that low, but were talking far from stable. A few more days showing up to work looking like that and I'd be in front of an ethical review board. Honestly, I have remarkable self control keep my doses low. When I switched from OC to Bupe I used about 3mg, within 4 weeks I was using about 1.5mg/48hrs. Getting it down to .030 (two .015s) a day was difficult due simply to the fact that it was too small a dose to hold anyone with any tolerance at all. There will come a day when I can get clean, I'm likely leaving NYC pretty soon, moving to Philadelphia and working as a Worker Efficiency Consultant, a job with less ethical rules then my current (I'm ashamed as all hell to say it given my drug use, but I'm a shrink.) And losing my job means losing my license, I worked too hard for that shit. I could give two weeks and leave to get clean, but it'll be hard to explain that period of unemployment. My resumé is pretty week due to years I took off between High school and college, and again between college and Graduate school to tour live music, another "break" from life makes me look unmotivated at best and troubled at worst.

I'm making excuses I suppose, and thats what they are sure. But they are also true. I've been on Bupe for two years, in NO WAY did my addiction lower my quality of life. But due to the realities of controlled substances and the mental health profession, it had to stop. There will come a day when I'm done with the Kratom I'm sure. But for now I'm just planning on having specific dosing rules.

I don't have a high relapse risk, but I do have a major tendency towards. I keep dosing low and use my education to basically use different drugs as medicine for social anxiety stemming from high functioning autism. Bupe was my favorite. No intoxication, minimal euphoria, just energy, concentration and relief from the nagging doubts, anxiety, and over analysis that dominate my sober mind. I have an addy script sitting here, my shrink wants me very badly to take it (she's a close friend and knows well about my drug use, and still thinks it would be better for me). I'm confident that, for the sake of my sanity, Bupe and Kratom are both better then using amphs regularly. (I don't use them. EVER. I fucking hate them more then I could ever explain. The only stim I can tolerate is coke, and I would never, ever spend money on it).

I would argue that at 3-6grams a day, I'm better off drinking Kratom tea then taking 30-60mg of dexamph (orally of course) each weekday. I'm sure some are thinking that my dose will never stay that low, but my history shows me I can keep the doses how I want them (though varying quality will be annoying).

When I used OCs I was a different person. I was covering a nasty depression borne of losing every close friend I had in college. I've always been a good student, but the people I like to hang out with often are not as good. I had a group of ten of the best friends I've ever had during the first year of college. We were all NYC kids who had never met, but decided to go to UVM for college back in the mid 90s. One ODed on benzos, another two failed out after that. Then two more ODed shooting dope. My use shot up. I had never been addicted, had no fear to keep me in check. No understanding that once my dose went up it could never go back (which is now my life's cardinal rule, never take more then I'm willing to need to take next time) I took the plunge, though I've never IVed. Actually, embarrassing but I struggle around all needles, my gf knows when I'm reading a thread about a missed injection or something of the like because I physical squirm. I'm pretty pain tolerant, but needles just...make my skin crawl. Another close friend just left without saying a word.

Then another started sleeping with this girl I was chillin with at the time. If I was in my right mind I would have just let him fucking have the bitch, but of course, I got upset and lost another friend (I did win back my fucking horribly bitchy girl, which just made the situation more of a total fucking loss). Then some fucking douchebag sold me a bunch of fentanyl patching, knowing how bad a place I was in. He even had the nerve to act like he was doing me a favor. Wow, thinking back on that I truly don't feel bad I was partially responsible for his house burning to the ground. I was nodding from fent in his crib with some other junkies, something caught and when we noticed we just went into the backyard to chill and watch it burn. I'm just glad I wasn't the moron who started cooking fucking Bacon before shooting up and forgot about it. Burned that shit TO THE GROUND.

So yea, I wore the patches for three of four weeks. Smoking some here and there too. I didn't smoke any until my tolerance had already gotten crazy from living life with high dose patches on. But if three of my best friends could check out, I really didn't fucking care. I had one close friend in HS and one girl I had dated for years. I was pretty much a loner, like one might expect from a HS student with autism. These were the group of people that went out of their way to help me fit in and find my place at school. Losing them (and my grandfather, who was my idol, and one of the closest people in my family to me) in the span of less then four weeks....it changed me profoundly. Looking into the abyss of what tragedy can do to life just made me want to jump in.

Slowly, new friends appeared. I kicked the surviving members of the drugs group out of my life and replaced them with a bunch of hippie trippy college kids. The fent had run out, I was using oxy to sleep, feeling like hell most of the rest of the day. I'd pop an ox (or rail some lines) when my friends were around. They didn't judge me, but they hated the drug. I knew it, and didn't want to lose another group of friends. One of the kids who lived across the way was an ex-dope fiend. He used Bupe in massive doses, and it worked for him (he did IV though). When I was speaking to him about my possibility for w/d he gave me a sub. My first dose got me VERY sick, which shocked me. I did about 3mg, and it DESTROYED me. I didn't get it.

I found the right dose, about 2mg before the week was done. Within 4 weeks I was down to 1mg a day. I used 1mg for several months before I forgot about tapering. I had started tripping and rolling too often, I needed the subs to keep me even on the regular school days. The Rolling was my big mistake, and I never even abused it. That shit just fucked with my mood to the point I needed something to take the edge off. And Bupe does just that. Then I found K, after longs nights of K bumps the Bupe would help me wake up, shower and get to class mind clear. All this time, my dose remained 1mg up my nose.

When I could no longer get the pills I switched to the strips under my tongue. I was sick for two weeks because of the loss in bioavailibiltity with the new ROA. Still, i kept the dose stead. Then a week ago I was tripping K for the first time in about 6 mounths and I was like..."Ok, i'm done with the Bupe. My suppliers gone, I worry about w/d too much. I'm done." The next day I took two .25mg pieces. I felt too fine. So I went with .15mg, twice a day. (Oh, wow I'm realizing I've been putting an extra zero in I think, yea I never got down to .015mg I'm not sure one could ever cut a dose that small, I'm an idiot sometimes.) .15mg was basically being in withdrawal all day without the physical pain. Still, it was terrible. At least with the Kratom, I'm OFF the fucking Bupe. I can't lose my license to practice psychology. I order bulk so supply isn't an issue. I'm confident my dose won't creep up and I'm willing to withdraw in order to ensure that. But without Kratom, I'd need psychotics or something nasty of the like. Or I would be useless in my job. A fucking shrink with social anxiety, pathetic.

I'm hoping within 15 days the acute stage of w/d from Bupe will be over. Then I can stabilize my dose at two cups of 2.5gram tea a day for awhile. Then I am going to quit smoking ciggs because they are fucking killing me. Then I'm going to stop smoking weed daily so I can pass drug tests (and I'm VERY unhappy about this, I love everything about smoking weed.) Then maybe i'll quit the Kratom and be clean other then some K/mush/acid/mxe when festival season rolls around each summer.

I didn't write this to justify myself to anyone. I wrote it because once I started it made me feel good. I'm sitting here trapped in what feels like a broken body, my mind working fine. Writing this was very nice. Thanks to everyone who read my OP and has given advice. It means a lot that people actually care.

 

[Xorkoth]

Hey, thanks for the response, I see you've thought about this a lot. Trust me when I say I understand, I have a nasty opiate addiction myself, it's been going on for 10 years. My own advice to you seems impossible for me to follow. I had gotten down to using poppy tea just once every 4 days, although I was using high-dose loperamide on the off days. I came to realize that loperamide in high doses is very bad for you, and it also produces its own kind of withdrawal. So I decided to cut down on the loperamide but as a result I have gone back up to using poppy tea every other day. It's still far from the worst I have ever been, but the withdrawal sets in on that 2nd day and I find it SO difficult to resist opiates when I'm withdrawing. For like 7 years I used kratom only for the most part, and I loved it. The high from kratom is so natural and euphoric, and makes me feel more like myself. But it lasts a short time so I was using it 3-5 times a day, 7-10 grams each time. I was using a LOT of kratom, and it had gotten me a cycle of fiending often and using multiple times a day. I switched to poppy seed tea and I could do that only every other day, it lasts so long that it keeps me free of withdrawal even the next day. I actually used it 3 times, every other day, and then stopped, and my withdrawal was gone. If only I had stopped there, but I convinced myself that I could use responsibly and recreationally now that I had escaped the physical addiction. Of course I was wrong and I slipped into another period of addiction. At one point I actually quit for a year, I was using poppy tea every day and I went cold turkey and after 2 weeks I could sleep again, after 2 more weeks I felt pretty good. After a year, out of nowhere I started craving kratom again, and I did it once, and quickly slipped back into multiple times a day use. Every since then I have managed to quit for only up to a week at a time, actually once I quit for 2 weeks and was past all the withdrawal again but once again convinced myself I would be fine to use it once and slipped back in. Now I am using it once every other day (kratom doesn't even work for me anymore so I use poppy tea), and occasionally I use loperamide on the 3rd day so I go 3 days without poppy tea. But I can't seem to make that final jump, my powers of rationalization are very strong.

You're right, it does feel to good to communicate these things. I am thinking about going to talk to someone, I have seriously considered rehab before but I would lose my job and if I did that I would also lose my house and car very quickly because I live paycheck to paycheck as a result of a massive amount of debt I incurred over the last 10 years due to my opiates being legal and obtainable with credit cards. So I am not really one to talk, I just really feel like I want to try to help as many people I see possibly going down the opiate addiction path perhaps choose differently. I have gone through so much pain from it, I don't want to see anyone else have to go through that. I won't try to convince you anymore as I see we are in a similar place, and you've considered these things heavily.

Good luck man.

 

[Flaga121]

This is exactly why this site is so special. Being able to be open about the same shit we keep so deep inside is.

And I appreciate your advice, I think those of us who know the damage these drugs can do need to keep yelling it at every new chipper waiting to get addicted. Sadly, I am already dependant and have the same issues you describe getting sober. Without the Kratom I know I'll relapse. I'm better with low dose opiates them sober. More self control.

Withdrawal isn't even the scariest part for me. It's living without me chemical buffer on a daily basis. So I do what I can and keep the dose low however possible.

I'm glad to hear your no longer taking the lope as often. I checked it out before ordering my Kratom and feel is not a good alternative at all.

When I cut my sub dose before the Kratom I found myself bored and doing dumb shit. I was doing nitrous daily. Looking for K and pcp all the time. Low Kratom doses even help me some less weed and cuffs which is crazy because subs had me song way extra. I think at the moment, I'm more Dangerous to myself sober.


The PST is a good idea as it holds you longer and keeps you from the craving cycle. For me prepping and drinking the Kratom helps in itself by taking away bordam. I slowly drink my low dose for Max high time.

I can tell how much you've improved your life even if you're still dependent. I'm bias because I do it for a living but seeing a shrink does me wonders. May I recommend a cognitive behavioral therapist. I think we have the best training because we learn behavioral modification without the outdated assumptions of addiction treatment.

Thank you so much for reading my story and sharing yours, it means more then I can explain in my current state. Good luck with your battle and I hope to continue crossing paths on BL.

Edit. I wrote this on Mobile so please forgive the pathetic grammar and such.

 

[Xorkoth]

Thanks for the well wishes. I have improved my life, a lot of really life-changing things have been going on (primarily that my wife who I have been with for 12 years and I have split up, I realize now that it had become a very negative part of my life, I was filled with an unspeakable amount of frustration and sadness and anger because of where our relationship had evolved to, for many years we were happy but my lying due to my addiction eroded her happiness, and she has this weird way of controlling my life and emotionally abusing me as a result of her own issues that was doing terrible things to my self-esteem and feelings of personal freedom, or lack thereof).

Bluelight is indeed special, it's my favorite place on the Internet. I have contributed it to greatly since 2005, especially PD and this forum, TR, and I love this place so much. It has the unusual quality of being full of supportive, loving members, unlike most Internet forums that are full of flaming and bickering.

I have been thinking of seeing someone, I think a cognitive behavioral therapist is a good idea. I was originally going to go see an addiction specialist and try to get bupe, but I think the healthiest thing for me would be to see someone else and not get started a new addictive drug. I am sure I can do it, I have done it before, several times. The time I quit for a year, the cold-turkey withdrawal was one of the hardest things I have ever gone through, so I am scared, but Iam in a better position now than I was, and I really need to just get my life on track.

 

[Flaga121]

Wow, it's remarkable how much that story resonated. It was a much briefer window, but the girl I mentioned earlier as sleeping with my friend was a big part of what made it impossible to get off the train once it started. She would project her own insecurities onto me to the point where, even as someone studying the concept of projection at the time, I started to internalize her insults. As I withdraw into my own world because of use (that she shared) her negative reinforcement was soon all I had. My best reaction to the hold she had on my life was get higher and have it be more tolerable. Terrible cycle, I'm glad you managed to break out, though I'm sure that was very painful. Bad relationships (or relationships that have soured) are so much worse then being alone, but we often refuse to see it, I know I did. It's hard to admit someone who was once our most powerful ally is now a part of the problem, it's terribly painful.

I have been reading BL threads for a very long time. A close college friend had a major acid breakdown on here years ago. He texted me a link as a way of alerting me to the issues he was having at the time. I have ghosted ever since but until I started to taper off Bupe I had no motivation to start posting. The people here are a combination of very kind and extraordinarily intelligent. A rare combination indeed.

Here is my thoughts on why to go the CBT (or alternatively Behaviorist) rather then a doc who can write Bupe scripts. This is my personal, not professional opinion (maybe they are the same thing, but maybe I'm supposed to say that anyway when giving advice online. Never expected to regret studying important classes during Ethics lectures.).

In the US (you said USPS so I assume were both in the states) doctors who wish to prescribe Bupe are required to undergo special training. I don't know what any of that entails because I have little interest in the medical side of my field, but what I know for sure is that these docs often do very little other then writing and managing Bupe scrips. This is, in itself, a full time job, but a problem for those who wish real treatment. All a Bupe doc will do is give you a script for a legal drug and manage a painfully slow "taper" if your super committed (most docs seem willing to allow tapers to both take years and regularly go backwards). You'll be in the same boat, perhaps with some financial pressure taken off IF you have really fire insurance. Then you'll be swimming in Bupe because he's going to give you WAY more then you need. I would be back at 1.5mg within a week personally, which would be way higher then my current Kratom dose. Even if your confident thats not a concern, I would argue that if it's an either/or situation, stick to the PST for now and go to a true therapist. If your insurance is willing to cover one side or the other, then both could work. Bupe plan to ensure stable doses without using Lope at all and talk therapy to try and figure out some of the problems behind your addiction, and other ways to manage. Or simply to feel better about life in general, which could help you to the point you can jump off (if thats your goal, which it seems to be).

CBT deals both with the ways drug use has changed your mind as well as the behaviors that have become so ingrained. It can be a much more full body approach. Given I see a CBT twice a week and still use, but often times therapy is less effective when you are listing the techniques the shrink is using in your mind as they use them. It allows the addict in me out rationalize her. Still, makes my life better, therapy is the one of two major reasons that if I had to go through w/d tomorrow in a locked room with just a hanging noose, I would walk out alive. Two year ago there is no chance.

Just my .2cents. I'm quite certain you understand addiction better then I, despite my years studying it. The four years living it have taught me more then anything else ever could have, so I imagine you understand your body and addiction quite well. Honestly, I think chemical dependency teaches us a remarkable amount about our own bodies. Still, I know a good deal about how the different mental health professionals actually think from working with, interning for, and listening to them in class for the last 6 years.

(Side Note: I find working in mental health remarkably rewarding, but some of the people I work with give me major pause. They are not there because there is a real chance to help, they are there because they couldn't hack it in med school and psychology offered a solid paycheck and good job title. Most of the Bupe docs I know fall into this category (Admittedly I only know three, and I know them because I work or have worked with them, I've never had a script for the drug.) They think very lowly of their clients. I'll never forget one of them saying
"Best job in the world [man]. I sell drugs to fucking drug addicts. Like I literally can sell drugs, in the form of my appointments and scripts to dope fiends. The courts are willing to send me dope fiends so I can sell them drugs. And most pay cash. I should drive around putting bottles of oxy in peoples mailboxes because every new addict means another 400$ every few weeks." He laughed. When I didn't he seemed a little put off.

 

[Xorkoth]

Damn, that's hardcore about the bupe doc with that attitude. What a terrible thing to think'say...

Your experience with your girl is SO MUCH like mine, it's crazy. She has some emotional issues, she has this rage, and she is either not angry or blindingly furious, there is no in-between. It's actually better now that she's 30 but it's still there, and it was horrible (like every day) when we were younger. During these snaps, she doesn't even look the same in the eyes. She screams horrible, hateful, abusive things, designed to cut me down as low as possible. She's said she hates me hundreds of times though that didn't start until after we got married (great time to start, right?) When I think about it objectively, I was emotionally abused by her for our entire relationship. As a result, I lost a lot of respect for her because I can't understand how she can treat me like that. I grew to resent her, because every time I had to just shove it down, swallow it, and get over it, it never resolved differently. She'd calm down and regret it and feel bad about herself but she never understood how horrible it was for me, I would do some tiny thing like put a dish back in the wrong place twice in a row and she would utterly flip out like she just caught me cheating or something. She almost took my eye out with her fingernail once. I was deeply angry at her but unwilling to even admit it to myself. Additionally, she had no patience at all for if I disagreed with her about anything ideologically, anything remotely important. She'd sort of put the idea down, or put "people who do that" down, and make it this weird thing. And so I started lying to her about my opinions, and over time it grew into a lot of lies about who I am, in effect. And she'd also do it about things she found annoying about me, she'd frame it like she was helping me, like "you don't want to be one of those people, do you?" And I would convince myself that those things really were problems and I would try to change them. Over the years I actually forgot what my owj opinions were about things. She'd ask me what I thought about stuff I wouldn't know and I wouldn't communicate, and she never understood why I was like that... and I didn't eventually either. I wondered what was wrong with me, because I was so disconnected from my emotions and opinions, I didn't even know what or how I felt a lot of the time. I thought I was going crazy and she would tell me I was too.

Through it all I was desperately frustrated and angry but I was not willing to admit it so the level of cognitive dissonance was crippling. I was nearly suicially depressed by mid to late 2013, I fantastized about suicide but never seriously considered it. Now the other side to this thing is that, as a result of my emotional blockages and frustration, I had descended deep into opiate addiction, it wasn't good during 2004 to 2007 but it was innocent. She and I used kratom together multiple times a day during that whole. But then in 2007, we were married, and we lived in a new place away from any friends and family. I began using opiates a lot more. Also at the end of 2008, she found out about all of the OTHER drugs (psychedelics and anything else besides weed and kratom), which I had hidden from her all along because she ridiculed and didn't allow my drug experimentation for the most part, but I felt it was my right so I did it without telling her. 2006 to 2007 it had gotten to where I was basically living a double life, I was tripping multiple times a week, often while she slept in the next room. So that was a huge breach of trust and she made me throw everything out and quit all drugs except weed. And I DID want to quit opiates. So I stopped all drugs except weed, left Bluelight, threw away my psychedelics, and quit opiates cold turkey. It was horrible but she helped me through and I actually did it. Things got a lot better for the year I quit, we got a lot closer again. Her problems didn't disappear but they were better, I was also starting to see things clearer. After a year I relapsed and his it for months and then she found out. This patterns happened probably 6 or 7 more times until late this past winter. In May of 2013, she left me, which I considered a betrayal and which I put all the blame for on myself. Over the next 9 months I slowly came to terms that we were really broken up. But we still lived in our house together, still sometimes snuggled (no sex though), still said we loved each other every day. It was very confusing. And she was very, very mad at me. Everything was the same except no warmth and no sex. Also, during this time she began to get really weird, almost like schizophrenia type of abnormalities, which further confused things for me (and her I would imagine).

Anyway, I finally started to come to terms, and then Christmas time came. We went to see our families separately, but I went to spend a few days with her family before heading back home (I am part of her family, we are super close, her I am the son her mom never had). During that time she came downstairs where I was working one day and burst into tears and sat on my lap. She sat on my lap and said she was so sorry for all this that she's put me through and she loves me and thinks this is stupid and we should be together. Then we kissed, which we hadn't done since May. I was unsure at this point if it was a good idea but I wanted to give it a try so tearfully I agreed. But nothing changed, she was still cold. She was acting really strange too, her mom was really scared, and talked to me often in hushed voice about what we needed to do and that was so glad I was in her life. We went home after a few days, and my wife seemed alright. Then a few days after we got back, we went to a potluck at our really food friends' houses. They are a couple, the girl is my wife's best friend in town and the guy is mine, and we're also all individually close. Partway through the night, she took my friend aside and asked to speak to him in private. They went outside and she told him she has feelings for him, and "she's not sure if it's just sexual or something more". He told me right away after refusing her and it was like a bomb dropped. I was stunned beyond belief, I never expected something like that I confronted her, and tried to give her the opportunity to tell me, but she lied and I caught her. She was stunned and wouldn't say a word to me for 3 days (part of her weird symptoms were getting in this mode where she wouldn't say a single word even though she'd look like she was trying). I asked her if she tried but she just didn't love me anymore. Eventually she said that's what it was.

To cut a long story shorter, for the first time I could see it all clearly, and see how this had happened. She got worse and worse and broke down and told me she feels dead inside and doesn't know how to feel people's love for her. After that she got really out of it and a week later she flew back to Illinois to live with her mom for a while. That was 6 or 7 weeks ago, her mom says it's one step forward 2 steps back. It's a really intense situation for me especially since she's some sort of sick. I love her but I know the right thing is to divorce and she agrees. We have talked about the pain we each felt at length since then and I feel better because she realized finally and apologized for her parts in it. I am having a hard time emotionally moving on, it still doesn't feel real. But I feel so much calmer and more peaceful now. Since then I have managed to cut my opiate usage way down. I have bad days, but I have a lot of good days. I feel 100% in touch with my emotions and opinions again. I rejoined Bluelight because this place is a wonderful outlet, community and support group for me. I feel hopeful for the future finally.

It's amazing what havoc a relationship gone wrong can wreak on a person's mental and emotional health.

WHEW, feels good to get that out. Super long though...

Also, thanks for much for your perspective on the therapy. I think you're probably right, a cognitive behavioral one would be the best option. I have thought about it a lot and I think I understand WHY a lot of this came to be, but at the same time I have always had an addictive personality my whole life, when I was young it was video games, Magic cards, this online multiplayer text-based role playing game that was my 2nd life... then it became drugs.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Just be very careful with your ordering timing.. Expecting a package in the mail while your sick with Restless legs, and cold sweats.. and Needing that package immediately only to get the mail and find the post office fucked up and it won't be there till say Monday is always a Horrible bitch.. but on the other hand when the mail does run smoothly it's a beautiful thing.. but having your well being depend on the Us Post office is a shitty feeling sometimes.. waiting watching tracking and looking for the mail truck....

Haha the amount of truth in this post hits deep, tis one of the downfalls of having to order my drug of choice online . Like ebola said, as much as I'm against supporting headshops, I would be guilty if I said I hadn't purchased small amounts (for outrageous prices might I add) from the local headshop in times of need.

As much as I love the idea of people using kratom to wean from harder opioids it strikes me as odd that people find so much success tapering with something with such a short half-life. Having to spoonfead heapfulls of plant material every 4 hours just to remove most of your withdrawals doesn't sound like fun, then again it's better than being in withdrawal...

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah to this day I still get a flutter in my stomach and feel like I need to take a crap when the USPS truck rolls up, and I haven't ordered kratom at all online in like 4 years.

 

[Flaga121]

I used to love MTG! We would get along. Good taste in card games, and drugs XD.

Wow man, thats a very intense story. Thank you for sharing. It's remarkable how many aspects of your experience I can relate too, though mine was a quick version (only lasting a little over 2 years). Emotional abuse is the worst, you keep telling yourself its nothing and you shouldn't let it get to you, but it eats you from inside. My ex drove my use (and it sounds like this happened to you) and my current relationship has driven me to stop my Bupe. The people around us give us power, or take it all from us.

My ex always said sorry, but was never willing to admit how bad it got either. She was drunk a lot of times, but she would just pretend she didn't do some of the terrible things she often did. (Making me sleep on the floor when I had trekked to the bar to rescue her was a regular event). The control was there too, she was fine with the drugs she enjoyed, but god forbid I enjoy something she didn't! Then all fucking hell breaks lose. Sounds like you can strongly relate. It's sad to hear she made you throw out your psychs, the one truly worthwhile drug class!

She can't be happy with anyone else until she's happy with herself. For my ex it took a more stable boyfriend then I could have offered here. And thats not a knock on me, I have my drug issues but my life is very put together. Still, she had worse tendencies towards abuse then I did, and worse emotional issues. My drug use (and large number of platonic female friends) drove her anxiety, and her bitchiness drove my drug use and to talk to the same girls she hated, not because I was going to cheat, they lived 100s of miles away and it wasn't like that, but those were the people I go to for advice. Viscous cycle of making each other fucking nutty.

Having to hide your life from the person you live with is just impossible. Living like that would drive anyone deeper into the hole sir. We all have bad days but as long as we have a good trajectory, life is good! For example I know getting myself Kratom-addicted is less then smart, but if it means I toss the subs in my drawer sometimes soon (haven't taken them in 5 days now!) it'll be a worthy trade moving in the right direction.

Random question, you said you spent years with Kratom. What was your preferred ROA? Sorry, I'm trying to figure out the best way of going about this. To be honest I kind of enjoy forcing myself to deal with the taste. It makes the experience feel much less hedonistic. I also find making the tea similar to blasting oil, it makes me respect the drug far more.

Captain - To be honest I've NEVER had this much fun fighting w/d. It's amazing, I love making the tea, even eating the plant with a nice smoothie. Making the tea just harks back to less complicated times XD. I don't drink coffee either, so it's kind of cool to have something kind of equal to drink. Meh, I've always been a major pothead, and this reminds me more of weed then OC/Bupe. I like that part too. And unlike low dose Bupe, it actually makes me feel good. More stimulating then relaxing, but it's not edgy so I'll take it! When/if i get off Ops completely, I'd still use Kratom from time to time. It's chill in my book. Also thank you again, it was after reading your posts on this amazing substance that I placed my first order.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah I can relate so much, crazy man. And you like MTG! The best strategy card game and possibly any kind of game on planet Earth. I have a killer collection too, I have an Unlimited Ancestral Recall.

Same way with my ex, she would never admit how bad it was. It made me feel like I was living in the twilight zone. I was absolutely paralyzed with her.

My favorite ROA with kratom, all things considered, was making the tea the traditional way. By that I mean, taking the leaves, boiling them LIGHTLY in a pot with water for 20 minutes, straining that, boiling it again with more water for 20 minutes, straining that, combining the liquid and cooling it in the fridge until it turned a creamy light brown color, like coffee with a lot of cream. It was thick and extra nasty, but it seemed to work better. Truthfully though, when I first started using kratom hardly anyone in the US knew about it (I have one of the first Erowid reports on it), and I could only get it in lightly crushed leaves (not remotely a powder). So it didn't really work to mix it with water and swallow. Once I started getting it in fine powder, I would either pour boiling water over it or just eat the powder, as the 45 minute process to brew it was longer than I wanted to be. Truly, it works better the other way though and it's harder to get the dizzy effect from consuming too much leaf material (if you've never experienced that, you may if you start increasing your dose, it's not great).

 

[《Plasticity》]

Yeah to this day I still get a flutter in my stomach and feel like I need to take a crap when the USPS truck rolls up, and I haven't ordered kratom at all online in like 4 years.

Lol it's worse when your mailman is a lazy c*** who would rather choose to leave the "sorry we missed you" slip in the mailbox instead of my non-signature required package... I live in a house btw and my mailbox is more than capable of holding my package so there's no excuse. Lol it wasn't until my GF caught her a couple times and complained that we got the situation straightened out.

Strangely enough two weeks later (I would place an order every week at the time) I recieved my package alright, well the sliced envelope containing nothing but my reciept wrapped in a plastic bag that read something like "sorry, your package has been damaged in route" or some shit like that, what a sledgehammer to the ballsack that was... To this day I have a feeling my mailman was in some way responsible, or perhaps they just thought I was recieving large amounts of blow every week and decided it was time to "investigate" *shrugs*... Sadly there are also many times where USPS as a whole is to blame.

Ps: I find your life story over the past years quite interesting (yup, read your entire third? post in the social thread). Lifes a bitch sometimes ain't it?

Captain - To be honest I've NEVER had this much fun fighting w/d. It's amazing, I love making the tea, even eating the plant with a nice smoothie. Making the tea just harks back to less complicated times XD. I don't drink coffee either, so it's kind of cool to have something kind of equal to drink. Meh, I've always been a major pothead, and this reminds me more of weed then OC/Bupe. I like that part too. And unlike low dose Bupe, it actually makes me feel good. More stimulating then relaxing, but it's not edgy so I'll take it! When/if i get off Ops completely, I'd still use Kratom from time to time. It's chill in my book. Also thank you again, it was after reading your posts on this amazing substance that I placed my first order.

Yeah while I wouldn't compare it's effects to cannabis if opioids are on the table (likely because I don't have much of a true opiate tolerance since discovering kratom) I would agree that kratom has a unique vibe and plays well with more drugs. People forget that just because they are tolerant to the opioid effects of kratom that there are still a good twenty-something alkaloids that they aren't tolerant to so this plant is still usefull to addicts for purposes other than it's opioid like effects, for example the motivational and mild stimulant benefits.

I personally never minded ingesting kratom whether it be in powder or tea form, this is a complaint seen by MANY folk who make the switch and choose not to make tea. For the first year or more I used to just eat the straight powder but I developed ulcers (likely unrelated although I'm sure that it didn't help!, I tested positive for h.pylori which is the ulcer causing bacteria so I can't blame kratom) and made the switch to tea which was the best day of my life (not really) but I find it the superior ROA, provides less side effects and bloating IME. Anyways I'm glad that I helped in some way, shape, or form but let's just hope your not switching addictions. While I would argue it's the lesser of two evils some have a hard time making the switch from kratom to nothing after jumping from stronger opioids, don't get too excited.... your not quite over the hill just yet! Good luck though, stay strong...