Kratom - First time- W/ding Bupe-addict

[Flaga121]

The main thing is always going to be sleep and waking up. So eliminating those two glasses of tea will be the hardest. But getting my tolerance to the point where two glasses a day is what I need is something I'm very confident I can do. From that point its a wash in my eyes. As I mentioned before, between low dose Kratom and ciggs, I'm not sure Kratom would be my priority. For me switching to a drug where I can control the dose a bit better (there was really no going lower then .15mg on the 8mg strips, I just can't cut that well) is a victory in of itself and one I'm happy to celebrate. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[《Plasticity》]

^ just understand that kratom is no free ticket, even if you taper down to half a gram of kratom when you quit your still gonna have to pay the piper. During this period I use lope, gabapentin, benzos, and/or MXE and this makes the whole process easy as pie but I have no history of prior opiate addiction.

My favorite ROA with kratom, all things considered, was making the tea the traditional way. By that I mean, taking the leaves, boiling them LIGHTLY in a pot with water for 20 minutes, straining that, boiling it again with more water for 20 minutes, straining that, combining the liquid and cooling it in the fridge until it turned a creamy light brown color, like coffee with a lot of cream. It was thick and extra nasty, but it seemed to work better. Truthfully though, when I first started using kratom hardly anyone in the US knew about it (I have one of the first Erowid reports on it), and I could only get it in lightly crushed leaves (not remotely a powder). So it didn't really work to mix it with water and swallow. Once I started getting it in fine powder, I would either pour boiling water over it or just eat the powder, as the 45 minute process to brew it was longer than I wanted to be. Truly, it works better the other way though and it's harder to get the dizzy effect from consuming too much leaf material (if you've never experienced that, you may if you start increasing your dose, it's not great).

Interesting, how did you even find out about kratom then? Your tea making process seems tedious to me, I just bring water to just under a boil and add the kratom, simmer and stir for 15 mins, strain and drink. I dry out and save the used material for days like I mentioned where USPS is running late or decides they wanna slice my packages in spite (haha not really, this only happened once, it's not a usual occurence). I find every 3.5g of this used material is equivalent to a gram of fresh powder.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well I found kratom in a head shop and I had remembered reading about it somewhere, i t may have been on Erowid already, can't recall. Wherever I heard about it, I also read about the traditional tea method (which is what I described). So I tried it, and holy shit, that was awesome! And then I went online and found the main vendor at the time who sold it and bought a pound... and the rest is history.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I remember reading in one of your TR's that you said that you loved kratom yet found opiates boring, I'm assuming your opinion has changed? I would imagine the good ol' poppy is a better companion in rough times, it's just sad how every story ends the same way . The poppy goddess is a sick, twisted bitch (not dismissing kratoms dark side though, kratom can really sink it's hooks real deep for some).

 

[Flaga121]

Addiction is addiction, I think focus on the substance ignores the facts most of the time. Substance is almost never as important as situation. Someone taking 30mg of a strong opiate a day is likely in a better position then someone drinking 50+grams (as some report) of Kratom as tea each day. It's all about keeping dose low each day. I know if it masks my withdrawal there is no free ride. To some extent I'm still carrying the same dependency from the Bupe if I keep using Kratom, but only to some extent. It functions as a taper simply because the w/d from Kratom are less visceral (from almost everything I read). Once I've put some time between me and the subs, I'll start taking days off (and I know I'll be sick) to lower my tolerance.

But for your example, if I'm feeling solid on half a gram of Kratom, even three times a day, I can live with that.

 

[《Plasticity》]

While I would agree to an extent I disagree, kratom withdrawals are mild at best for me and I doubt I would be able to say the same thing if I was hooked on hydro. Kratom withdrawal seems to have no GI effects at all for me.... no cramps, no nausea, no vomiting, nada... The second you start adding these symptoms in the desire to use the substance regularly loses all appeal to me which is why I've been addicted to kratom for three years and still have no desire to move on to other opiates. With your logic your excluding other factors like half-life for example... say I was addicted to an equivalent dose of bupe, your saying that a two week withdrawal is the same as a several month long withdrawal that has the typical GI symptoms included? I don't...

Also kratom has many more benefits than hydro due to it's complex list of alkaloids. Read this post on what each alkaloid does, there's no arguement that kratom is the lesser of two evils in my eyes. Kratom also has a built-in ceiling that makes it impossible to get any higher at a certain point and what this tells me is I need to slow down and litterally within a couple days my tolerance is DRASTICALY reduced due to it's ~3 hour half-life, again no other mu agonist has this type of built in regulation.


https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=488576

 

[ebola?]

I am lucky enough / cursed to have an internet distributor based in my town, so I have access to non-rip off prices without the rigamarole of shipping. I am still dabbling, but I experienced my first withdrawal after a binge of 7 days in a row. It was odd. Just a single day of diarrhea and overactive tear ducts, absolutely no mental symptoms, not even insomnia. But yeah. . .it's time for me to slow down. :/

ebola

 

[Xorkoth]

I got terrible withdrawals from using it 3-5 times a day for 6 years... you're right, no gastric effects, but crazy tearing, depression, anxiety, leg soreness and the absolute worst limb restlessness I have experienced from anything, ever... laying in bed thrashing around, I couldn't even keep my arms still, not just my legs. That is the most dreaded part of withdrawal for me because it drives me insane and keeps me from being able to sleep a wink... now if I do kratom once, I get right back into the worst of withdrawals.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Not only is that a fuckload of kratom, but 6 years is a long time as well so it doesn't surprise me that you had unpleasant withdrawals but do you honestly believe your withdrawals couldn't have been WAY worse had you been taking 3-5 full doses of hydro for 6 years? Being the curious fellow that I am how did you even manage to squeeze 5 doses in a day? That habit seems like it takes some dedication as I find it almost impossible to go past 3 doses per day unless I don't sleep. I'm not trying to pass kratom off as nothing to worry about but personally kratom withdrawal is short lasting and while very much unpleasant, it's not too bad with the right tools and preperation. Obviously intensity of withdrawal is highly variable person to person though so I speak for nobody but myself.

 

[Flaga121]

CR - Your post does a good job explaining my logic in switching from the subs to Kratom. Within two weeks the GI issues I wake up with will disappear (they are already getting better). But I do think if your use was high enough there would be Gi issues involved even with Kratom. The tolerance issue is another major plus.

 

[Xorkoth]

Kratom's effectiveness began to reduce more and more over the years, until it would last 2 hours maximum. So that's how I could do 5 doses in a day. Honestly it was so bad that I would dose at 1am before I went to bed, and wake up with the beginnings of withdrawal at 6am, take more and sleep until 8:30 and get up for work, do some more by 10 or 11am.

Also I think withdrawal hits me very hard personally, I have a very hard time with it. Perhaps largely because of life stresses, obviously withdrawal makes everything harder to deal with emotionally. I find it easier to deal with these days but it still really gets to me easily. Also I think with kratom, when I was buying it in bulk, I would get like 60+ doses at a time, so it was extra easy to rationalize a single dose, especially ifI wasn't feeling too good, it was so easy to remedy that.

 

[Xorkoth]

I remember reading in one of your TR's that you said that you loved kratom yet found opiates boring, I'm assuming your opinion has changed? I would imagine the good ol' poppy is a better companion in rough times, it's just sad how every story ends the same way . The poppy goddess is a sick, twisted bitch (not dismissing kratoms dark side though, kratom can really sink it's hooks real deep for some).

Yeah when I started kratom I had tried hydro and oxy, I have never cared for hydro, even before I ever tried any opiates it never gave me much of a high. Oxy I did like, but I didn't love it... it was nice but I didn't think about it unless it fell in my lap (the same is not true now). Then I tried kratom, and I found the high so fulfilling and exciting, it really turned me on to opiates.

Gradually kratom stopped working for me, and I started getting into other opiates. The only other one I've really come to love is poppy tea. Interestingly, the 2 opiates I have had problems with are both natural opiates (ie, the opium residue from the poppy, unprocessed, and kratom, a raw leaf). I find synthetic or isolated opiate chemicals to be pretty one-note. For example, I have done heroin a sizable handful of times, I even got addicted to it twice (not majorly), and I don't like it nearly as much as poppy tea. It just doesn't really do it for me (but I have never injected).

For me, heroin withdrawals were the absolute worst, it made me feel like I wasn't even myself, horrendous depression and anxiety, feeling like I had the flu, depersonalizaton... just terrible. Second worst for me is kratom withdrawals, simply because of the restlessness. As a kid I used to have restless legs syndrome (there was no name for it then, we called it crazy legs, my mom and brother and I all get it, the doctors thought we were making it up). So I think I am sensitive to restless limbs. I absolutely HATE that feeling, most people only feel it from opiate withdrawals I think. That feeling where you absolutely CAN'T stay still, you HAVE to move your legs or you go nuts. You know what I mean? All opiates make me do that in withdrawal but it's next level with kratom, it's so bad that my arms get crazy too and sleeping is quite literally impossible for the entire duration of withdrawal, horrible, restless, sleepless nights full of depression and loathing. The lack of sleep adds up and by day 5 I am so worn down I break down emotionally and get into a pretty volatile state. That is the reason why kratom withdrawals are so bad for me. Emotionally it's not as bad as other opiates and there is no feeling of sickness, just a lot of discomfort, anxiety, and soreness.

 

[ebola?]

you're right, no gastric effects, but crazy tearing, depression, anxiety, leg soreness and the absolute worst limb restlessness I have experienced from anything, ever...

Well, I experienced the precise inverse, just about only gastric effects.

now if I do kratom once, I get right back into the worst of withdrawals.

Luckily, I didn't experience subsequent sensitization to w/d...or haven't yet. I'm just glad that it's gentle enough in comparison to other opioids to have given me a gentle taste of the consequences without locking me to continued use immediately.

ebola

 

[bpayne]

Haha the amount of truth in this post hits deep, tis one of the downfalls of having to order my drug of choice online . Like ebola said, as much as I'm against supporting headshops, I would be guilty if I said I hadn't purchased small amounts (for outrageous prices might I add) from the local headshop in times of need.

As much as I love the idea of people using kratom to wean from harder opioids it strikes me as odd that people find so much success tapering with something with such a short half-life. Having to spoonfead heapfulls of plant material every 4 hours just to remove most of your withdrawals doesn't sound like fun, then again it's better than being in withdrawal...

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but don't you Supply a shitload of headshops with Kratom? or are you just using the name of them because you like kratom? I just had to ask when I saw you say you didn't want to support headshops.. I'm against it as well. I think it's a bad look for the industry and is downfall of Kratom. but I know every time I do have to run out to get an emergency supply There are always those Captain Kratom bags sitting there.. in a flashy packaging costing 4 times what it should. ..

But it's entirely possible you just chose a random name.. so please excuse me if I am incorrect. I generally take about 5-8 doses of kratom a day myself.. I go through 20-30 grams per day so when I run out it is Certainly Not pretty. The Restless Leg syndrome is the worst and compares to real opiate withdrawal in that regard completely.. of course there are some differences.. there is no real gi discomfort.. throwing up, diarrhea, stomach cramps ect.. but to me withdrawing from regular opiates and kratom is fairly indistinguishable only really by the amount of time withdrawal lasts and severity of a few of the symptoms but it is extremely comparable.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm pretty sure he's not related to that company. Then again I never asked.

God I hate those restless legs... I get it worse from kratom than poppy tea. You ever get restless arms syndrome from kratom withdrawal?

 

[amanitadine]

Me personally, having run the gamut with all the opioids, I'd rather withdraw from a straightforward opioid than Kratom....the mixed action of all those alkaloids make withdrawal a real bitch with long term high dose use....for something with such gentle effects it sure has an awful withdrawal when abused...

I'd have to dose every 3-4 hours after a few years in, around the clock...8 times a day, 7-8 grams a pop....it is great stuff. But not near as benign for me as some paint it!

 

[Xorkoth]

Precisely my experience, 100%. I'm glad someone else agrees with me on that.

 

[bpayne]

I'm pretty sure he's not related to that company. Then again I never asked.

God I hate those restless legs... I get it worse from kratom than poppy tea. You ever get restless arms syndrome from kratom withdrawal?

Me personally, having run the gamut with all the opioids, I'd rather withdraw from a straightforward opioid than Kratom....the mixed action of all those alkaloids make withdrawal a real bitch with long term high dose use....for something with such gentle effects it sure has an awful withdrawal when abused...

I'd have to dose every 3-4 hours after a few years in, around the clock...8 times a day, 7-8 grams a pop....it is great stuff. But not near as benign for me as some paint it!

Yeah Xorkoth you are probably correct about him not being affiliated just felt like when I saw his earlier posts that this must be him because I actually have the real owner of the company on my facebook friends list and I believe they are from the same area. but it most likely is not.
I can say that I have never gotten restless arms on top of the legs but it sounds absolutely horrendous. I must have jinxed myself with my earlier post talking about waiting for the mail and it not showing up as that was on Saturday morning and I was expecting my latest batch.. and wouldn't you know it of all things after that post.. my package did NOT show.. I had no suspicion that this would actually happen to me at the time.. kinda crazy how that coincidence worked out I'd say. My whole weekend was pretty much in the TUBE because of it. probably an average of 2 hours sleep per night. and this was AFTER going to a headshop out of desperation to get a small amount.. just enough to takes the edges off.. unfortunately whatever strain it was really only worked for about 2 hours.. it was a more speedy variety meaning it was less effective for withdrawal as it was an energy strain so it wore off quick. which left me still sick for about half the time.. Hell I would take 2 grams before bed.. get to sleep and wake up 3 hours later sick and needing to take more.

Amanitadine you said a mouthful with that one!! .. yes I believe that it's unique withdrawal profile is due to the many, many different alkaloids present in the leaf.. I would almost say it shares a certain symptom profile with another weak opioid with an unusually horribly withdrawal .. Tramadol.. Not quite as bad but quite nasty in and of itself.. I can't help but wonder though. .If I hadn't gone to Kratom straight from opioids to escape withdrawal and then take large amounts everyday. if it could have been less severe.. Say like someone who has no opiate tolerance or experience. then starts a small kratom habit. I bet their withdrawal is going to be significantly reduced compared to what We go through. Of course I have no way of knowing that.. It's just a hunch.

 

[amanitadine]

Bpayne- yeah I think to a degree you are correct, but Xorkoth started on Kratom and it got nasty....and Mental Kenny over in EADD did the same....it was fairly benign for the first few years but now has nasty withdrawals....i think even to the opiate naive given enough time it will set its hooks in pretty deep!

I think it is pretty gentle in small amounts, but large amounts over time prove to be horrendous for a lot of people. A good number of folks downplay the withdrawals in an attempt to not tarnish its image in the hope that it can remain legal.....also, a lot of people on the various Kratom forums never actually come off it permanently so they speak of it as being benign, but strictly because they havent stopped hheheh. I find it unpleasant enough to stop but staying stopped is really the clinker...it seems to screw with the brain in a way not dissimilar to antidepressants in that it has a very protracted recovery period. The tramadol analogy is fairly accurate, but the alkaloids in Kratom arent serotonergic....at least not directly. But the Mu and delta agonism, it's effect on NE, the NMDA antagonism, calcium channel blocking, etc etc ETC make for a nasty soup for kicking!

Yeah Xorkoth I feel ya. I also feel ya on poppy seed tea....it too has a slew of active chemicals that make it a bitch to kick compared to a straighforward opioid. I would MUCH rather kick heroin than a stiff pod habit....pods are never ending debilitating withdrawal! I haven't ever mucked with the seeds, but I imagine it to be similar, just not as severe...

 

[《Plasticity》]

Lol so first things first I'm in no way affiliated with that company but my username does stem from that brand. When I first discovered kratom, before I knew any better, I used to always buy those capt kratom xl capsules. Since I was just about the only person steadily purchasing those caps the folk at the local headshop would say "lemme guess, captain kratom?", long story short everytime I would walk in that shop they reffered to me as "captain" or "captain kratom" so the name stuck with me. Eventually I realized that I could litterally get 3-4x as much kratom at the same price online so I stopped purchasing from the headshops, not to mention the fact that they WILL be the downfall of kratom if states keep bunching in in with all the synthetics on the same shelves in headshops.

Okay back to the topic at hand, withdrawal! For most people, they will never reach the levels of kratom you consume xorkoth for the reason you mentioned yourself, kratom simply stops working at some point. Also flaga, if xorloth agrees that the GI effects were minimal at his level of abuse I think it's safe to say that these GI effects ie. Cramps, nausea, vomiting, diahrea are simply a rarity for kratom. I feel that even if I chose to escalate my dose to rediculous levels that these effects will still be minimal compared to other opioids, which btw kratom is NOT. For me, if I use kratom anymore that 3x a day for a week or two kratom will be rendered practically innefective and increasing the dose simply makes me restless and.anxious with no pleasant effects to show for. Once most people get to this point they will stop trying to play the pointless game of increasing the dose as there's simply no point, I'm sure you will agree that it was a silly choice to keep chasing what was not there and get to the point where your in withdrawal every 2 hours. For me, once I hit the ceiling I will litterally take a 2-3 day break and my tolerance will be reduced at least 80%, what other mu agonist provides this kind of regulation?

Another thing, I take ~3 doses of 8-9g of kratom which I will say roughly equals 20mgs of hydrocodone so by rough equivalence I should be suffering the withdrawals of ~60mgs of hydro, by the flaga's logic that is.... this I will say is total BS. I have litterally gone to work in full blown withdrawal and while it sucks I'm sure I wouldn't be able to do so had I had a 3 year, 60mg hydro habit. Kratom withdrawal has always been 75% mental/25% physical. For example, I will be consumed in life and miss a dose and feel 100% normal yet the second I realize I missed a dose withdrawals instantly begin. What this means is that when I have the mentality that I actually WANT to quit or take a break then the withdrawals are very mild, again I'm speaking for myself only.

Let's face it, withdrawal from ANY mu agonist is unpleasant, that's just the nature of the game but for me, as well as many others kratom withdrawal just isn't that bad. It's obvious that some still manage to struggle with kratom but it's built in tolerance regulator, lack of any sort of GI effects, short withdrawal, and short half-life makes it litterally the easiest mu agonist to maintain. This is all MY experience/opinion so I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking kratom is harmless, it's not.... but when compared to just about every other opiate/opioid/mu agonist kratom is childsplay IMO, YMMV....