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  • Trip Reports Moderator: Xorkoth

Kratom - First time- W/ding Bupe-addict

bpayne said:
Amanitadine you said a mouthful with that one!! .. yes I believe that it's unique withdrawal profile is due to the many, many different alkaloids present in the leaf.. I would almost say it shares a certain symptom profile with another weak opioid with an unusually horribly withdrawal .. Tramadol.. Not quite as bad but quite nasty in and of itself.. I can't help but wonder though. .If I hadn't gone to Kratom straight from opioids to escape withdrawal and then take large amounts everyday. if it could have been less severe.. Say like someone who has no opiate tolerance or experience. then starts a small kratom habit. I bet their withdrawal is going to be significantly reduced compared to what We go through. Of course I have no way of knowing that.. It's just a hunch.
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Well, as I mentioned, kratom was the first opiate I used regularly and got addicted to... I was using it daily (every day, often twice per day), and had been doing that for a couple of months when the mail fucked up (it was coming from 50 miles away but it ended up traveling like 5000 miles, to both ends of the country and back to the midwest, it was insane). I was without it for 4 daysd, and it arrived on the 5th. I experienced horrific withdrawals, though more emotional than physical, the physical was just uncomfortable, but it was some of the worst mental anguish I have gone through. I suspect it was largely due to being completely taken by surprise, I had NO idea I was going to have withdrawal. It scared me bad, and by the day the batch came, I actually felt better. It could have ended there but unfortunately I got back on. That was... 10 years ago. Damn.

I think you may be right about dosage, amanitadine. My wife took kratom with me 2-3 times a day or more for many years, but her dose was always 2 grams or less, every time, the whole time. She never experienced withdrawals at any point.

And yes KK, of course it was extremely silly of me to keep chasing it, just short of bull-blown insane I'd say (or maybe not short at all).
 
Captain, while I stand by my argument before, in all practicality I agree with you completely. That's my main motivation for switching to Kratom to get through the Bupe withdrawal. When it comes time to kick it, I'm quite confident the w/d will be much more mild then my Bupe w/ds. Also Kratom allows me to go through sickness all day and take a single dose to sleep, continuing to lower tolerance and my dependency while getting regular sleep. If I take even one dose of Bupe my whole day is basically down the drain in terms of a taper. It allows me to go lower on the taper, while giving me a solid chance at a more mild withdrawal. My current does translates to less then I was taking in sub before my extreme taper (frankly, wasn't holding me and wasn't going to stick before the Kratom arrived.) Also I was more speaking to those using Kratom to hold withdrawal back. The fact that they still have something maintaining their opiod receptors (like myself) means they can't ever assume the w/d won't be nasty.

I know it's no free ride, but I think its going to prove a minor miracle for my existence. After two weeks I plan on kicking the daily habit. I just think I like this substance, and would like to continue after I finish coming off. It's been a long time since I've had self control issues with dosing so I'm not too worried. I realize there is a chance I find withdrawals worse then subs, but I doubt it and am willing to take that chance. Bupe w/d lasts FOR GODDAM EVER for me and tends to be remarkably psychological to the point of suicidal depression. Part of that comes from not being able to tell anyone aside from my girlfriend about my addiction. If I have to kick the Kratom and struggle, I don't mind telling the other people in my life that, without them knowing I went from a poly-opiate abuser (who at my worst was wearing a fent patch while I smoked it) to a 1.5mg Bupe dose, to 3 reasonable glasses of Kratom a day. If that's when I struggle so be it, but putting the script abuse in the background is just critical for me at the moment.

Also, for some odd reason my tolerance for opiates has never really gone up. Even a day after a nasty binge, I could always get pretty high on a 30mg half orally and half blown. Same was true of Bupe, up until I passed the .30mg threshold I was still feeling euphoric effects. Even a half gram of Kratom gives me 95% relief from all but the most physical issues from withdrawal (I still get chills, and muscle pain). I refuse to take more then 10grams/per 24 hours. I'm happy to withdraw if that does isn't working. But I do think Kratom is special, it's something I want in my life unlike other mu agonists.

Cap, thanks again for making me feel confident in my call to use Kratom to ease this nasty transition. I hold your views on this subject in high regard.
 
One thing I can attest to in kratom withdrawal is that it only lasts about 4 full days, and the on the 5th day is dissipates mostly.
 
Xorkoth said:
Yeah when I started kratom I had tried hydro and oxy, I have never cared for hydro, even before I ever tried any opiates it never gave me much of a high. Oxy I did like, but I didn't love it... it was nice but I didn't think about it unless it fell in my lap (the same is not true now). Then I tried kratom, and I found the high so fulfilling and exciting, it really turned me on to opiates.

Gradually kratom stopped working for me, and I started getting into other opiates. The only other one I've really come to love is poppy tea. Interestingly, the 2 opiates I have had problems with are both natural opiates (ie, the opium residue from the poppy, unprocessed, and kratom, a raw leaf). I find synthetic or isolated opiate chemicals to be pretty one-note. For example, I have done heroin a sizable handful of times, I even got addicted to it twice (not majorly), and I don't like it nearly as much as poppy tea. It just doesn't really do it for me (but I have never injected).

For me, heroin withdrawals were the absolute worst, it made me feel like I wasn't even myself, horrendous depression and anxiety, feeling like I had the flu, depersonalizaton... just terrible. Second worst for me is kratom withdrawals, simply because of the restlessness. As a kid I used to have restless legs syndrome (there was no name for it then, we called it crazy legs, my mom and brother and I all get it, the doctors thought we were making it up). So I think I am sensitive to restless limbs. I absolutely HATE that feeling, most people only feel it from opiate withdrawals I think. That feeling where you absolutely CAN'T stay still, you HAVE to move your legs or you go nuts. You know what I mean? All opiates make me do that in withdrawal but it's next level with kratom, it's so bad that my arms get crazy too and sleeping is quite literally impossible for the entire duration of withdrawal, horrible, restless, sleepless nights full of depression and loathing. The lack of sleep adds up and by day 5 I am so worn down I break down emotionally and get into a pretty volatile state. That is the reason why kratom withdrawals are so bad for me. Emotionally it's not as bad as other opiates and there is no feeling of sickness, just a lot of discomfort, anxiety, and soreness.
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I totally agree that poppy tea and kratom provide a more full experience due to the long list of alkaloids, don't get me wrong though, I still LOVE me some opioids lol. Always have, long before discovering kratom but was lucky to not get addicted, never really felt like addiction to the more potent opiates was worth the subtle but oh so pleasurable warmth but I admittedly teetered on the edge of dependance in highschool... Luckily though I was smart about the whole.situation and dropped opiates for a good couple years, until I discovered my true love, kratom <3. I still give myself one "off-day" a week where I either indulge in pharmaceuticals (usually hydro or dilly 4's nowadays) and the occasional smoked or plugged BTH. One day I can get away with causing little rise in tolerance and withdrawal but anymore often is pushing it. Sounds like kratom was the start of a dark path for you though, IIRC you were in the process of kicking your poppy habit? How's your progress so far?

Kratom withdrawal definately has some nasty RLS and bone chill (possibly the worst symptoms for me, just add anxiety to that list) but I've never had restless arms, ever I don't think but I'm sure it's very unpleasant. I think your disposition to the "jimmy legs" exacerbated these symptoms though, just like my anxiety which skyrockets during withdrawal but I've had GAD all my life and I can usually shrug it off. The depression isn't that bad for me but if I take any sort of monoamine releasers (Even aMT, sadly) too close to my withdrawal period the depression can REALLY fuck with me. A plus for kratom though is I never get any sort of PAWS, I can litterally be 100% in two weeks (first week is a rapid taper, rest is manageable W/D) pretty much painlessly and feel normal again (or I could have a rough week long cold-turkey). I do use other non-opioid drugs in that withdrawal period though which definately makes the whole process a walk in the park when combo'd with even a short taper.
 
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I had the strangest night ever. Went to sleep about 2 hours after drinking two grams of Kratom. Kratom allows me to sleep, but doesn't help me sleep, so I didn't fall asleep within my window and the withdrawal started. There was a bottle of Kratom behind me but I decided I didn't need it. Within an hour I was alternating between cold swears and nasty hot flashes, I felt the worst I have since quitting suboxone. Then about an hour in I had a typical using dream; thought its more then a little fucked that rather then blowing Bupe or OC I was chugging Kratom, kinda twisted, but whatever. I woke up soaking wet, but instantly realized that my head felt normal. No depression, no need, no craving, no anxiety, I felt like myself. In fact I felt a remarkable wave of euphira, a feeling of being free. My body realized that for the first time in awhile I was sober and feeling ok. As I write this I'm sober, I feel pretty good aside from the fact that I woke up a little stupid early.
 
That's great, I have had spontaneous relief from withdrawal before, it never lasts forever though. I'll cross my fingers for you.

I'm still chugging along on my reduction... since I stopped taking loperamide every off day I started doing poppy tea every other day again, trying to get to every third day now but I don't think today will be the day. I have my MXE now so what I want to do is get to every third day and then try using low-dose MXE to mask the withdrawal through the worst period and get past this. I am also still considering going to an addiction doctor and getting some suboxone, and then using like .5mg doses when I can't stand it anymore for the length of time it takes to be done... however I don't want to replace it with a sub addiction, and I've never had it before so I don't know if that's feasibe to expect I could use it low-dose periodically for a week or so and not end up being addicted to it.
 
Thanks!

I do think thats a solid plan assuming you used strict self control with the Bupe dosing, lowering it each day and cutting off after 7.

I wish I didn't have work today, I could easily get through the typical day, but I can't go into my office like this and I can't call out. I'll keep my full days dose to 6grams of Kratom. I'm pretty close to 100% but the last few percent is very noticeable to an onlooker. I could fool most people into thinking it was another kind of sickness, but not my coworkers.
 
Flaga- you've got the right attitude, and using Kratom as you are is indeed a godsend. I can't say anything bad about it when used responsibly. My caution was more against abuse...like my approach of 50 grams a day for years! Don't do that and you'll be fine :)

And as the posts in this thread highlight...YMMV. People respond in entirely different ways when it comes to Kratom. I for one do get horrid GI symptoms upon withdrawal. Others don't. For Xorkoth the withdrawal is over in 5 days. For me the opioid part lasts for 10 days or so, and then a few weeks of the secondary more insidious phase.....we all vary, that much is a certainty!

It is a very nice plant, I will say that much!
 
Reports on this plant definately vary... For me withdrawal will last a week if I cold turkey, while I feel mostly normal on day 5 there's definately some residual insomnia, RLS, and exhaustion if you haven't been getting sleep which is practically impossible without other drugs. I find it surprising you get these GI effects strongly though, It's just something I rarely read associated with kratom withdrawal. IIRC there were a couple other people who brought up the lack of GI effects in the bottom few posts of this thread http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/345335-Kratom-withdrawal?p=12183788#post12183788.

I honestly believe the reason that you get these symptoms so bad has to do with your extensive past, IIRC you said you've burned through every other opioid before moving on to kratom? I could be wrong though. The worst I've gotten is maybe some soft stools that I wouldn't call diahrea and some loss of appetite although I believe the loss of appetite ties in with the anhedonia and lack of drive to indulge in food which for me is more of a means of pleasure than survival TBH. When on kratom I get the "super-muchies" though lol, I swear if I wasn't lucky to be born with an abnormally fast metabolism I would be a real fat ass by now :\
 
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@flaga it's weird, there are times where I wake up with no withdrawal issues either but yeah they typically don't last too long although there were definately more than a few occasions where I used these times as an opportunity to take a tolerance break and litterally surfed through w/d at about 60%. I wonder why this type of shit happens? It's very strange...

Xorkoth said:
That's great, I have had spontaneous relief from withdrawal before, it never lasts forever though. I'll cross my fingers for you.

I'm still chugging along on my reduction... since I stopped taking loperamide every off day I started doing poppy tea every other day again, trying to get to every third day now but I don't think today will be the day. I have my MXE now so what I want to do is get to every third day and then try using low-dose MXE to mask the withdrawal through the worst period and get past this. I am also still considering going to an addiction doctor and getting some suboxone, and then using like .5mg doses when I can't stand it anymore for the length of time it takes to be done... however I don't want to replace it with a sub addiction, and I've never had it before so I don't know if that's feasibe to expect I could use it low-dose periodically for a week or so and not end up being addicted to it.
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Although I have no experience with using bupe for withdrawal I think the real problems start when you continue to use it well after the withdrawal period from your DOC, there's nothing wrong with seeking some professional help but don't just switch to bupe for good as I don't think that would be a wise choice in the long run IMO, bur what do I know :p. Your gonna make good friends with MXE when in acute withdrawal, it's a fantastic withdrawal aid for me and it's almost always in my arsenal despite not liking it recreationally that much. I'm on day 2 of no kratom as of today and things really aren't too bad, I am on a regimine of 50mgs tramadol, gabapentin, and roughly 4mgs of etizolam before bed though.. My tolerance finally reached the 10g mark and this is typically the point of little return. My anxiety really starts to spike around this dose so I'm gonna take 3-4 day break which should bring me down to about 5-6 grams hopefully.
 
I'm pretty confident I kicked the Bupe habit and am through acute w/d. I slept fine last night, waking up a bit early (but that was normal for me pre-drugs anyway, only on subs did I sleep forever). It's easy to forget that the reason some of us started using was to treat things like insomnia, we can't blame their return on w/d. My stomach is still adjusting to no Bupe, but it's been really easy going. Like I'm half expecting myself to break out in cold sweats anytime now, but ever since that weird moment in the middle of the right where my mind/body felt better all at once, I've been good to go sober. Smoking weed works like it used to? Before the Bupe. I mean, that's prolly cus I'm not on Bupe...but it's VERY strange honestly.

I'm sitting here feeling major euphoria, feeling far better then I have in a long time. I think I'm going to take the day off Kratom. I need to get some work done tomorrow for my doctoral applications so I'll have a glass or two, but I'm going to scale down to two grams a glass (seems to work nicely). I'll take the weekend off Kratom and start planning a 4 days on - 3 days off plan for my weeks.
 
Wow that's great to hear, I would honestly try and get by on the smallest amounts of kratom possible from now on, just ride the wave. Don't take anymore full doses of kratom as that can hurt your progess in the end, work on kicking the bupe and if you wanna continue using recreational doses of kratom sparingly (In reality it's best to leave all mu agonists alone really) do so once your well over your bupe withdrawals so you don't reset anything. I'm sure you already know this but after you kick this habit, as little as 2-3 days on kratom can put you right back into withdrawal. Glad to hear things are working for you, keep it up.
 
I've been sober for about 35 hours now. I feel perfect now but had a rough day at times. I'm not doing back to back days of Kratom anymore. I drank 4grams early yesterday, nothing since 2pm yesterday. Might drink some to get some work done tomorrow (its GOTTA get done) but I'm taking the whole weekend off, I don't care if I'm crying for a fix. I'll refuse myself. I know I can do it for sure now, because I was at work, having cold sweats and shaking with a bottle of premixed Kratom just sitting there. Now its still full in my fridge for tomorrow. Theres only 2 grams in it.

Thank you so much everyone! The information and support and been very helpful.

Cap't - Specifically thank you for all the knowledge you shared about Kratom. If it was not for Kratom and the things I learned from your posts this would have been much more painful, and I might have just let myself become reliant on the Kratom. It was your point about how tolerance decides to jack itself up at a random point during dependence which made me realize I didn't want that. Bupe could have been useful for me, I ruined it for myself. I will not ruin Kratom for myself like that, I've never enjoyed any drug quite this much (that isn't K).
 
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