Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts

only southern slang i know of that ive only ever heard blacks say
is screets
for streets.
but i agree with lacey, its just southern type talk theyre discussing,.
 
xoqqiy axlotao3al said:
thank god for slimvictor, as this thread is outrageous. (i am also a professional in an allied field, and nearly every single thing every other poster has written here is demonstrably, over and over, provably wrong, even by those who agree with their side in general)

but forget the general issue: let's talk about the specific press release. i don't care what you call it. what in the world is wrong with LEO finding people who can understand what the suspects of criminal investigations are saying? can you people possibly be so blinkered by your politics that you would actually prefer LEO stop investigating speakers of black english because they are hard for other speakers to understand?
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the issue is that by treatin it as a different language, its easy to distort or totally change the meaning that its interpreted as. Treatin it as a code means that any normal sensible logical meanings of a word wont apply--and the thing is that there is lots of slang and words that means other shit, but it aint like EVERY word means somethin else. They can get these experts to say that "brushin my teeth" means sellin drugs, u know?

In court some shit like that prolly wouldnt hold up but they will be able to use this to intimidate people who aint got alot of money for a good lawyer to plea out and cop to shit that they might be able to beat at trial.

by treatin it as this completely other language that they need translators to interpret for them, those ppl can interpret it as anything at all and whose word is gonna be the one that is believed, the dboy off the street or the "ebonics expert."

And thats the thing too is that on the street slang changes SOOO quick that a 'expert' might believe that he got it on point but in reality the slang is already on to somethin new and they cant even accurately interpret the shit that they are sayin.

Its more complicated than just gettin some 'translators' and gettin it done. Becuz there is always a risk of corruption when u got somebody translating something when there is a gain for them involved. who is really gonna stop them...And becuz its treated AS a code, a foreign unknown language, there aint no experts thats gonna stand up for them and say no it dont mean that...there aint nobody in a neutral position who can be a unbiased advocate . Its the suspects/defendants and the DEA/experts. so they can say this means that and who is gonna say otherwise? They could in theory say some outragous shit that really aint true at all but who is gonna contradict them--ppl will just take their word for it since they personally dont know, and the ppl who would say Hell no that aint wat it means, are the ones who got the most to gain by denying that....So it leaves a bad situation in my eyes....

I aint sure of the solution but Im just sayin those are my concerns with it. shit like this can definately be used to target poor black kids. and they are already a easy target for alot of law enforcement since alot of em aint got the money to fight back, so now sayin some shit like this about how we gonna convict you on somne serious charges and you gonna go to jail for years becuz we got these experts who interpreted wat you said and we KNOW that you meant that "I got you the kilo of cocaine" when you said "waz good shawty, yea i got chu mane" so you better just plea out now while you got the chance to get out of this situation....And so on...
 
DrunkardsDream said:
"True Dat yo!" Ebonics is not a language at all even if people want to claim that it somehow is.

Ebonics has nothing to do with slavery it has everything to do with people being uneducated.

I know blacks who do not speak, dress, or act like total thugs and look down upon blacks who do this and they consider them to be idiots since they are since they are proud of being uneducated and butchering the English language.
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It's slang and bad grammar, and nowhere near as inventive as its proponents wish. If you really want to hear some intriguing (yet still lousy) English, go listen to someone from Glasgow or Pittsburgh talk.

Advocates of "Ebonics" as a language do a great disservice to the black children who speak that way, as those children are put an even greater competitive disadvantage in nearly all areas of American life by being taught that it's okay to speak like an uneducated idiot.
 
^ I would attempt to answer your bigoted, ignorant, elitist, undereducated, racist, classist comments, but I believe that I already addressed them in sufficient detail above.

If you read my earlier post, you might have saved yourself from looking like this. Or even learned something, and changed your mind! Imagine that.
 
I think that detectives from the specific area can be used. If a person knows that much more local slang than a detective that is on the streets, than I wouldn't trust that person to translate for law enforcement.

I feel that all this does, is allow the "translated" version of what was said to be heard in court, and what was actually said will never be heard by the jury.

ex: The District Atorney: Let the record show that the defendent often made the statement that experts have translated to mean "I have 2 kilos of heroin, come over my house to purchase them".

So overall, just an easier way to convict people without giving them a fair trial.
 
DrunkardsDream said:
"True Dat yo!" Ebonics is not a language at all even if people want to claim that it somehow is.

Ebonics has nothing to do with slavery it has everything to do with people being uneducated.

I know blacks who do not speak, dress, or act like total thugs and look down upon blacks who do this and they consider them to be idiots since they are since they are proud of being uneducated and butchering the English language.
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I agree that it isn't a language, but that's my personal, unqualified opinion. It is on the other hand definitely a dialect of the English language. Just as the way Americans speak is a dialect of the English language Spoken by those who live in England. Some might even say English is a dialect of German, although I'm not sure of the veracity of that claim, it is a Germanic language. Now, subjectively speaking, I'm not to fond of Ebonics. I don't think it's a nice sounding form of speech, but if I were to read a novel where it was used to express something profound I might change my tune. I might even use it from time to time, but at the right time. There is a time and place for speaking in slang, and I personally feel that a job is not the place. I also think there are people more open to that kind of communication, and people who aren't like my grandmother.

I feel people have every right to speak it, and I'm glad that blacks(I think the word African American is daft, so pardon my use of the term so bluntly) are expressing themselves and their culture. I just feel that they should be fluent in the language of their neighbors in addition to their own, so that they have the flexibility to adapt to different environments. Some I have met have recognized this need, and mastered this. Others, I feel, think it is not necessary. An example of the thought behind it is, "I don't care what white people think about me", which is fine, but when you can't get a job because of your speaking manners(I know blacks have disproportionately high unemployment, I've seen management that wont hire blacks period, and management that only hires certain blacks, and one manager who preferred to hire black people regardless of how they spoke, being black himself. He was fired though.), I imagine that would anger me thus causing me to care.

In the end though it really isn't any of my business is it? Doesn't hurt me. I feel it hurts them sometimes, but again it's not my place to decide how another human being expresses their self. The latter is especially relevant considering I have autism, and have always communicated a little differently. I like the way I converse, but it's off putting to some, so I worked really hard to be fluent in a style of conversation that allows me to build report with various kinds of people.

I feel it does have to do with slavery. It isn't like blacks brought Ebonics over here to their plantations, I might be wrong though I imagine some of it might have roots in African languages, it arose from the way they learned English. They learned English from those around them; slaves who learned English from listening to what and how their en slavers spoke, which was also a dialect. These people were up until not to long ago, either not aloud into white schools at all, or heavily discriminated against. That doesn't go away in a few decades. It could if they collectively decided to start speaking the King's English, but that is unrealistic if only for the fact that no group collectively decides to do something in that fashion.

It also has to do with education. Now I have met highly educated black people who used slang occasionally, but never have I met one who used it as their main format or method of communication.

I don't think they are proud of being uneducated, although I have been told there are some undertones of obscurantism in some black communities by some members, I think most are just displaying pride in themselves, and where they come from. I don't have a problem with that. It's healthy to like yourself, and others like you, so long as it doesn't exclude you from appreciating other cultures. In conclusion, you yourself DrunkardsDream use poor grammar in your posts. The one I quoted is in desperate need of punctuation. Further depending on what your criteria of English is, anyone could be accused of butchering the English language despite speaking the language spoken by their community perfectly. An Englishman with a penchant for language would probably tear you apart. So stop throwing stones from your glass house, eh mate? OR I'LL BUST A CAP IN IT!

PS:slimvictor "^ I would attempt to answer your bigoted, ignorant, elitist, undereducated, racist, classist comments, but I believe that I already addressed them in sufficient detail above.

If you read my earlier post, you might have saved yourself from looking like this. Or even learned something, and changed your mind! Imagine that. "

The person you are replying to certainly meets my criteria for insensitivity and prejudice. There are somethings in what he said, and how it was said, which lead me to believe he might be classist(I myself am occasionally guilty of this), but I can't be certain, although I imagine he sufficiently demonstrated that he fits your criteria for classist . In regards to his being uneducated, other than his general opinions and his saying "Glasgow or Pittsburgh talk", I don't think there is enough evidence to determine he is uneducated. After all there are plenty of educated people who are bigots. Bill O'reilly went to the university of London, Boston university, and Harvard. The man is both a moron, and a bigot by my measuring stick. In regards to being undereducated, I feel all fit the criteria for that. One can never get enough education. I ask anyone, give me an example of someone with to much education?

Sorry to get into semantics, but with that aside, I feel that he isn't completely wrong, although his opinions weren't tastefully written. Ebonics does put one at a competitive disadvantage in some cases, with some people. I feel that is pretty easily demonstrable. I also feel that parents who do not teach a reasonably orthodox version of the language they are expected to speak, do their child a disservice. It doesn't mean they don't love them, it is in the same way that parents who don't take their kids to disadvantaged countries to help others and perceive how others live their lives, do their children a disservice. It's not something the parent can be blamed for, but it's true none the less. The child who speaks English in a way that allows him or her to be understood clearly by the largest amount of people has an advantage. Just as the child who understands that not everyone lives like he or she does, and there for appreciates what they have has an epistemic advantage.

In regards to the DEA bringing in linguists to decipher slang in court, who cares, they already have a ridiculous success rate for prosecution, it's really not something that effects me.
 
People lose credibility when they overuse characterizations like bigot, classist, etc. Especially over something as silly as Ebonics which, if it had a definition, would turn everything from frat boy talk to pig latin into language.
 
^ Actually, Ebonics does have a definition (or many definitions), and it doesn't have to be a language for everything I said to be true. In fact, I would prefer not to consider it a language.

And to insult any dialect of any language as being an instance of "bad grammar" is a symptom of undereducation. In this particular case, it is clearly linked to racism and classism. If you don't see it, I would suggest that you are not looking hard enough, or with a sufficiently broad understanding of the relevant social and cultural issues. Or maybe that you have invested in one viewpoint, and are loathe to consider any other.
 
narco anonomous said:
In regards to his being uneducated, other than his general opinions and his saying "Glasgow or Pittsburgh talk", I don't think there is enough evidence to determine he is uneducated. After all there are plenty of educated people who are bigots. Bill O'reilly went to the university of London, Boston university, and Harvard. The man is both a moron, and a bigot by my measuring stick. In regards to being undereducated, I feel all fit the criteria for that. One can never get enough education. I ask anyone, give me an example of someone with to much education?
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I agree with you. O'reilly is clearly a moron and bigot.
Life is education (at least for many of us), and therefore education should be a perpetual engagement.



narco anonomous said:
Sorry to get into semantics, but with that aside, I feel that he isn't completely wrong, although his opinions weren't tastefully written. Ebonics does put one at a competitive disadvantage in some cases, with some people. I feel that is pretty easily demonstrable. I also feel that parents who do not teach a reasonably orthodox version of the language they are expected to speak, do their child a disservice. It doesn't mean they don't love them, it is in the same way that parents who don't take their kids to disadvantaged countries to help others and perceive how others live their lives, do their children a disservice. It's not something the parent can be blamed for, but it's true none the less. The child who speaks English in a way that allows him or her to be understood clearly by the largest amount of people has an advantage. Just as the child who understands that not everyone lives like he or she does, and there for appreciates what they have has an epistemic advantage.
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I don't agree entirely here. Some people can become very successful/rich using only ebonics (musicians, for example).
I would certainly prefer my children to be able to speak standard English, but there are times when speaking standard English puts one at a disadvantage. Imagine having your car break down in a bad neighborhood - it might be better to speak the dialect of the locals, instead of sounding snooty and rich, dontchya think?
In some people's lives, this represents the vast majority of the time, depending on their social networks and jobs.

What many people here are missing is the fact that language (including one's dialect) is not merely a code for communication. It is also an identity badge, a way to express membership in a "group". Speaking a certain dialect is a way for people to say "this is who I am". It is also a way to express solidarity - I am with you (or I am against you).

So choice of dialect expresses IDENTITY and SOLIDARITY.
These are incredibly important socially.
Choice of dialect expresses these things, but so does choice of haircut, clothing, tattoos, piercings, and (sometimes) music, car...

People with a visible tattoo are at a clear disadvantage in terms of socioeconomics (according to upper-class people with no tattoos).
Why don't they just give it up and erase them? (some do, but most don't).
The tattoos express who they are (or want to be), and who their friends are.

Same with choice of dialect.

Why doesn't everyone just dress conservatively, and avoid any body art?
After all, it will put them at a disadvantage, right?

I am saying this as a person with some body art who generally doesn't dress very conservatively. If somebody asked me the questions above, I would immediately think about how my goals in life aren't to make lots of money and fit in with the upper classes, or to be successful in business, and how I enjoy body art and wearing comfortable and (to me) cool clothes. Some people make supportive comments, and I fit into certain social groups, but not others, because of my body art and clothing.
But more than anything, I would want the questioner to get the hell out of my personal space. Do I have the freedom to alter my own body? If so, leave me alone, jerk, I would think.

Same with choice of dialect.

If I want to speak a certain way, there is a reason. I will fit in with my peers, and express myself in the way that I want to.

It is, of course, ideal to be capable of communicating in various dialects, in order to fit in with various groups, just as it is ideal to be able to wear sweats to the gym but a tie/dress to a wedding, but some people's life situations make one dialect relevant nearly all the time. Should they give it up, and always speak in standard English because some people believe that standard English is "better" (despite having no scientific reason to believe so)? Should they alienate their peers because the rich people in society don't like double negatives?

That is just stupid.

Ebonics speakers (and speakers of other non-standard dialects) are aware of the social status of their dialect.

In one fascinating study of 3- and 6-year old black (African American) children in the US, the researchers put a tape player in each of two dolls. One spoke standard English, and the other spoke Ebonics. They then asked the kids which box spoke better. Roughly 80% chose the standard English - speaking box.

They then said that each kid could choose one box to get a present from. Which box do you think will give you a better present?
3/4 of the kids said that the standard English speaking box would give them a better present.

Amazing, since 3-year olds are so little. They have already put together a deep understanding of culturally-sanctioned dialects, and the link to economic power.

Finally, the researchers asked the kids to choose a box to give them a present. Incredibly, half the kids chose the Ebonics-speaking box - even though many of them believed that they would get a worse present!!!8o

Why would a little kid choose a worse present???

Identity and solidarity.

That speaker is one of "us".

I would give up on trying to get speakers of non-standard dialects to change to match "the correct" dialect (which, by the way, is standard only due to social coincidences, not due to anything scientific).

It ain't gonna happen.

Being able to communicate successfully in the standard dialect is important, though, so I believe that there is nothing wrong with teaching that ability. Expecting people to use it all the time is just silly, though.
 
The term "ebonics" is colloquial and derogatory and just goes to show what others have stated, that is, that this is intended to make it easier to prosecute minorities on dubious charges.
 
Nice post artaxerxes, I take it you come from a similar background as slim. Ebonics still doesn't meet my criteria for being a separate or distinct language. Namely because it does not have a set structure of rules dictating it, nor is it even static. One word may be used for one thing one day, and a short while later it will be replaced by another, the former falling out of fashion or becoming completely forgotten. Sure the English language is similar, but both American, and English share a structure, and as Malaysian standard English is a language it also has a structure though borrowed from various languages. Manglish, the Malaysion equivalent of street talk, is not considered a language, rather a dialect, for the reasons I mentioned. That doesn't mean ebonics couldn't be a language, I mean as I mentioned above, English is a Germanic which only became English after an evolution of deviations. If it wanted to become a language, someone would sit down, set rules, write a dictionary setting the base terms of the language, and the speakers of it would except these as the structure of their language.

Further Ebonics varies from region to region, often sharing little in common other than being based in English, and often spoken by blacks.

Doesn't mean Ebonics is to be looked down on or anything just because it isn't a language, although there is a time and place for it. I could be totally wrong though, my linguistics knowledge isn't all that extensive, nor my recall of it that impressive, and most of it is grounded in neurolinguistics and speech therapy related classes.
 
Opiatesrarely said:
Don't assume I don't read. I read more than you.
I'm talking about those entertaining ebonic 2-toothed bums downtown who rap to get bed money and sell their food stamps. Now that's some funny shit! ;)
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You read more than I do? That's a bold presumption. I doubt it, as I'm very well read, and a graduate student who does almost nothing but read. But if you do happen to read more than I do, congratulations, may you question everything, may you find your own answers, and may you do well for those in need with what is imprinted upon you.
 
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