Israel is under attack

[JGrimez]

Pretty much every bomb ever dropped had some risk of killing civilians, and the people who dropped them knew it. So I guess those were all war crimes too. Or... it's war... you warn civilians to evacuate as best you can, then you carry out your objectives.

There's a difference between legitimate collateral damage and indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas.

I very much doubt that 15,000 civilians have died. If that were true, there'd be video everywhere of piles of bodies.

There are videos, tons of them. They're all over Instagram and some other socials. The issue is that many of the largest channels showcasing the carnage in Gaza are being shadowbanned and names not showing up in searches. Here's a few to get started if anyone is genuinely interested.
IG @hiddenpalestine
@wissamgaza
@ahmedeldin
@brownissues
@palestinelobby
@zein_rahma

To not even bother to search out any of the footage and then sit there and claim there's no footage and start disputing death tolls is willful ignorance to the point of being offensive.

There's a chance we may never know though. Because if the Hana's fighters are counted as civilians the numbers become corrupt.

I doubt we will get the accurate numbers as then the world will truly see the extent of civilian life that was terminated.

 

[nepalnt21]

The other side have had many opportunities to accept this and move on. To accept peace for their children and their children's children

this is really naive.

Pretty much every bomb ever dropped had some risk of killing civilians, and the people who dropped them knew it. So I guess those were all war crimes too.

sometimes. the u.s. has done plenty of em.

Or... it's war... you warn civilians to evacuate as best you can, then you carry out your objectives.

in war, you are supposed to try and reduce the numbers of civilian deaths. anyone paying attention is well aware that israel is doing the opposite of that. even israel has talked about it.

hamas on october 7th had WAYYYYY less civilian death (percentage wise)... nobody in their right mind would say hamas is justified or are just doing the regular wartime stuff or whateva.

israel told gazans to move south AND THEN BOMBED THE SOUTH!!!

they also bombed hospitals, refugee camps, u.n. shelters (after the u.n. humiliated israeli by calling out their war crimes, lo and behold), schools, etc. etc. etc... israel is deadset on MAXIMIZING civilian deaths. if you believe they are actively trying to AVOID civilian casualties, i got you on cheap bridges for days.

Hamas .... numbers

the numbers aren't just unverified rumors. the palestinian health officials have tended toward accuracy. the liars (when unaffiliated third parties investigate) tend to be the israeli government.

gaza is rubble. it would be amazing if there were ONLY 15k deaths.

 

[nepalnt21]

Abandoned babies found decomposing in Gaza hospital weeks after it was evacuated

“No child should have to die alone,” a charity said in response to a widely shared TV report that has sent shockwaves on social media.

www.nbcnews.com

if anyone's not sickened by this, they have zero heart and zero spine.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I've posted this exact definition like 4 times now in this thread. I didn't realize something so simple was so difficult to understand

"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous"

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[nepalnt21]

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216852611/palestinian-student-shot-in-vermont-is-paralyzed-from-chest-down-his-family-says

can't even exist in "the free world"... remember when that coward murdered a small child and tried to kill his mom?

sad that still much of the world is still brainwashed by pro- israel bullshit, but luckily many many people are able to critically analyze the situation in gaza and the west bank. almost a million bucks raised for the kid paralyzed by a coward's gunfire... and his other friends survived. thank goodness spineless losers tend to be shitty with their aim.

 

[JGrimez]

For the people who keep using the alleged "RAPES" (yet provided no evidence yet) as emotional propaganda - I would gather a wager that you had no idea about this:

A 13-year-old Palestinian boy raped in an Israeli prison led to the US State Department raising the issue with the Israeli government.
In response, the Israeli government seized DCI-Palestine computers, labeling them a terrorist entity for bringing the incident to light.

 

[nepalnt21]

Ethnic cleansing when their population has been skyrocketing for years?

jesus, you should really just stop talking about any of this cause you're making it very obvious you have zero clue about the subject matter

 

[mal3volent]

To not even bother to search out any of the footage and then sit there and claim there's no footage and start disputing death tolls is willful ignorance to the point of being offensive.

I've been following this for months. My feeds are basically all Israel Palestine shit. And I follow both sides. I've seen actually deaths yes, horrific... truly. But I've also seen demolished buildings in Syria advertised as Gaza. Dead Syrians advertised as Gazans. Also baby dolls advertised as real babies. Also old pictures from previous conflicts in Gaza advertised as recent.

15,000 dead bodies in an area the size of Las Vegas , you'd expect some pretty devastating evidence. I mean that's 5 9/11s worth of victims. Think about it.

this is really naive.

care to explain or are you just going to make empty statements without backing them up?

hamas on october 7th had WAYYYYY less civilian death (percentage wise)... nobody in their right mind would say hamas is justified or are just doing the regular wartime stuff or whateva.

dude what the actual fuck are you talking about. 100% of killings by Hamas were civilian. they weren't engaged in war so the analogy doesn't even begin to apply.

they also bombed hospitals, refugee camps, u.n. shelters (after the u.n. humiliated israeli by calling out their war crimes, lo and behold), schools, etc. etc. etc... israel is deadset on MAXIMIZING civilian deaths. if you believe they are actively trying to AVOID civilian casualties, i got you on cheap bridges for days.

you mean the hospital car park that PIJ bombed or the other one I posted the video of Hamas shooting out of? The schools where they store artillery? They deliberately do this for propaganda purposes. I think I've said this what, ten times now? If Israel wanted to maximize civilian death they could have months ago without having to get their boots dirty.

For the people who keep using the alleged "RAPES" (yet provided no evidence yet) as emotional propaganda - I would gather a wager that you had no idea about this:

you mean the evidence I posted weeks ago that you still haven't responded to (and won't)
look at our grimesy... a real humanitarian. A rape denier who thinks 'whites are right to be scared of blacks', but also cares so so much about Palestinians.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous"

which area are they trying to make ethnically homogeneous? Please explain. Israel itself isn't ethnically homogenous.

jesus, you should really just stop talking about any of this cause you're making it very obvious you have zero clue about the subject matter

Wow, you think if I was so off base you would have said a little more as to why I'm wrong, instead of just another emotional outburst.

 

[swilow]

The act of Zionism in the current form has resulted in ethnic cleansing, the ideal doesn't matter. The actions do

The people in the kibbutz weren't doing anything close to ethnic cleansing though. You seem to think that simply being Israeli means you deserve to get murdered as an "ethnic cleanser".

The settlers aren't even Zionists. Zionists were secular. The settlers are often religious maniac orthodox Jews. The violent ones are essentially all orthodox bigots. You know what i thinl about fundamentalist religious nutters by now. Every country has this sort of person. That fact doesn't make it ethical to brutally kill people who live in the same country as the bigots nor should it mean that a country is not allowed to respond to that sort of brutality.

 

[nepalnt21]

100% of killings by Hamas were civilian.

lol wait, what? you seriously... wtf?!?!?! so the idf soldiers that got to the area and engaged with hamas terrorists (and also, according to israel, probably killed israelis) were... civilians? this makes no sense.

according to info coming out of israel, they said like 900 civilians were killed, iirc... and 1200 ppl were killed overall. 3/9 comes out to 33.333%, and the civilian kill rate in gaza is WELLL over 80%, maybe into the 90%s, i've seen estimates of up to like 98% civilians killed at one point.

the hospital car park

dude, we can throw that one out and we'd still have dozens of hospitals bombed by israel.

people "being used as human shields" (which is a hmm funny way of putting it anyway, especially when they use things like "hamas has a bunker under a hospital" as justification when it turns out that the israeli government made the fucking bunker). israel also has a history of blowing up hospitals and lying about it, and murdering civilians and lying about it. things they've been caught for and are uncontested. israel is a war-hawk propagandist's wet dream.

care to explain

not only have israel poopoo'd peace talks and rejected deals... but have also offered palestinians very shitty deals, have been known to go back on things like ceasefires, deals that palestine accepted, have gone into the west bank and occupied it (the three longest occupations at the moment, big pro numbers).

they also have a friend in us the u.s. (as in you've got a friend in me), and have ensured that a resolution (literally; for example: look at the united nations' "peaceful resolution to the palestine question" which is consistently brought up time after time, is not bad for israel and not that amazing for palestine if i understand it well enough, and is agreed upon by palestine and most of the world, but is consistently smacked down by the u.s. and israel)... the u.s. has used its veto power dozens of times to 'protect' israel from criticism and we also love to poo-poo peace deals.

yes, hamas (for example) has sabotaged peace deals, but you can't just boil it down to "palestine hates peace and always rejects super sweet deals", and it is naive to try.

a little more as to why I'm wrong

it's just frustrating to do your homework for you... it's been laid out by others.

but i'll give it the ole community college try.

JUST BECAUSE it hasn't proven to be a FULL ON, 100% fatality rate complete genocide, that doesn't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to being evidence of no ethnic cleansing... and it's bad faith to use the argument you did, as well as this one:

Israel itself isn't ethnically homogenous.

it doesn't need to be for them to try and rid gaza of palestinians. it's like you thought that was an 'aha gotcha' moment when you cherry picked one tangential part of one definition (and there's no agreed upon, homogenous definition)... without considering other definitions, like this one:

a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.

(from the united nations).

israel has made it EXTREMELY CLEAR that they are trying RIGHT NOW to cleanse gaza of the palestinian ethnic group. not only have they used genocidal rhetoric openly on a few occasions (and incidentally, let's not forget their eugenics treatment of ethnically african jewish israelis), but they (again, to reiterate) have been killing palestinians WITH GREAT EFFORT and impunity.

they (the idf) are also protecting (sometimes american) zionist monsters that go in and attack, harass, even kill palestinians... take political prisoners, etc. in the west bank.

like, seriously... do you have any condemnation of the goings on in the west bank? hamas doesn't control the place, and yet palestinian civilians are treated like vermin. kicked out of their HOMES and even murdered by settler shitmongers and cowards.

i'd really like to know what your attitudes are surrounding what's happening in the west bank.

(sometimes i don't have the time, patience, emotional stability to sit here and type out these things, so bear with me when i reject your arguments flat out with no explanation... this shit took me like an hour when i should be sleeping)

 

[nepalnt21]

You seem to think that simply being Israeli means you deserve to get murdered as an "ethnic cleanser".

they never even a little bit fucking implied that, dude seriously why must you do that? it's really a shitty thing to do.

That fact doesn't make it ethical to brutally kill people who live in the same country as the bigots nor should it mean that a country is not allowed to respond to that sort of brutality.

so palestine has the right to respond to the brutal killings of palestinians in the west bank? your words seem to possibly imply that... please illuminate.

The settlers aren't even Zionists. Zionists were secular. The settlers are often religious maniac orthodox Jews.

dude, huh? since when can zionists only be secular? the ultra evil orthodox settlers are very often of the zionist persuasion. anyway, it is a fundamentally religions movement, zionism is... where are you getting that it is a secular movement?

 

[elgoucho9]

q.e.d.

I never said any of that.

We disagree on this issue, but that shouldn't mean you have to sink to the level of a flat out liar who can't open their mouth without bullshit pouring out.

How dare you continue to speak such outrageous slander? Can't you muster up all your intellect and form a coherent argument rather than these two-bit Reddit shitposts?

Says the guy who resorts to replying to people with Nazi memes if they don't support Israel lol.

Didn't you already beat me to any of that by making out i hate all jews because i don't agree all life in Palestine needs to be flattened?

Show me where in this thread you've condoned any killing by the Israeli's. Oh wait you can't.

 

[nepalnt21]

netanyahu is a nazi. people that hate that the idf left babies to die alone and scared are not nazis. not sure how this is controversial.

 

[-=SS=-]

Accounts of Sexual Violence by Hamas Are Aired Amid Criticism of U.N.

A meeting at the U.N., organized in part by Sheryl Sandberg, accused the body of ignoring the rape and mutilation of women in the Oct. 7 assault on Israel, and heard gruesome details from witnesses.

The body of one woman had “nails and different objects in her female organs.” In another house, a person’s genitals were so mutilated that “we couldn’t identify if it was a man or a woman.”

But ample evidence has been collected, like the bodies of women found partially or fully naked, women with their pelvic bones broken, the accounts of medical examiners and first responders, videos taken by Hamas fighters themselves, and even a few firsthand witnesses like a woman, in a video made public last month by police officials, who said she had watched Hamas terrorists take turns raping a young woman they had captured at a music festival, mutilate her and then shoot her in the head.

I particularly liked this bit:

Hamas has denied that its fighters committed sex crimes, which it said would violate Islamic principles.

 

[mal3volent]

the palestinian ethnic group

palestinian is an ethic group ? I guess words can mean anything now right? Maybe I'm ethnically American? I was just using a generic definition of ethnic cleansing. If you want to use something you found from a biased source like the UN who can't even vote to condemn Hamas , be my guest. Lol.

lol wait, what? you seriously... wtf?!?!?! so the idf soldiers that got to the area and engaged with hamas terrorists (and also, according to israel, probably killed israelis) were... civilians? this makes no sense.

according to info coming out of israel, they said like 900 civilians were killed, iirc... and 1200 ppl were killed overall. 3/9 comes out to 33.333%, and the civilian kill rate in gaza is WELLL over 80%, maybe into the 90%s, i've seen estimates of up to like 98% civilians killed at one point.

the point was their objective was to kill 100% civilians in their terror attack, and they accomplished that. The fact the IDF responded and some were killed is secondary. Israel's goal is not to kill civilians.

dude, we can throw that one out and we'd still have dozens of hospitals bombed by israel.

can we? Can you list the names of 24 or more hospitals bombed by Israel? Also to what extent were they "bombed"? Because I've seen pictures where just one section of a structure was targeted because Israel had intelligence as to where the weapons were stored. I've also seen sources cite that a building was "bombed" because a building in its proximity was targeted and it caused a broken window or superficial damage to another building.

not only have israel poopoo'd peace talks and rejected deals... but have also offered palestinians very shitty deals, have been known to go back on things like ceasefires, deals that palestine accepted, have gone into the west bank and occupied it (the three longest occupations at the moment, big pro numbers).

they also have a friend in us the u.s. (as in you've got a friend in me), and have ensured that a resolution (literally; for example: look at the united nations' "peaceful resolution to the palestine question" which is consistently brought up time after time, is not bad for israel and not that amazing for palestine if i understand it well enough, and is agreed upon by palestine and most of the world, but is consistently smacked down by the u.s. and israel)... the u.s. has used its veto power dozens of times to 'protect' israel from criticism and we also love to poo-poo peace deals.

yes, hamas (for example) has sabotaged peace deals, but you can't just boil it down to "palestine hates peace and always rejects super sweet deals", and it is naive to try.

dude what are you talking about? Hamas admits they love death more than life. They do not want peace. That means as long as they are in power, the Palestinians can't have peace either. Before they were in power, there were legitimate long term peace proposals backed by nearly everyone and they were still turned down.

it doesn't need to be for them to try and rid gaza of palestinians. it's like you thought that was an 'aha gotcha' moment when you cherry picked one tangential part of one definition (and there's no agreed upon, homogenous definition)... without considering other definitions, like this one:

I was using the definition that @someguyontheinternet provided. So I guess now when I dismantle your sides arguments I get bitched at for using the information you yourself chose to present?

Tangential part? How can it be tangential when it's part of the definition itself? Tangential to what?

like, seriously... do you have any condemnation of the goings on in the west bank? hamas doesn't control the place, and yet palestinian civilians are treated like vermin. kicked out of their HOMES and even murdered by settler shitmongers and cowards.

i'd really like to know what your attitudes are surrounding what's happening in the west bank.

I think all of us have condemned the settlements multiple times already. Should I do it again? Ok: I condemn the settlements in the west bank. Do I think illegal settlements justify terror attacks, murder, and rape? No, not at all. Do I think that justifies a blanket narrative of occupation or oppression? Not really.

(We get mocked when we admit the shortcomings of Israel. But none of us think they're perfect)

 

[mal3volent]

Says the guy who resorts to replying to people with Nazi memes if they don't support Israel lol.

They weren't memes, they were historical nazi propaganda used to illustrate to you the thematic similarity to some of the state you were making.

Didn't you already beat me to any of that by making out i hate all jews because i don't agree all life in Palestine needs to be flattened?

Here you go again with more straw men and lies. I never said any such thing.

Show me where in this thread you've condoned any killing by the Israeli's. Oh wait you can't.

You're right. I can't. I've never "condoned" any killings , other than the killing of Hamas terrorists.

 

[mal3volent]

netanyahu is a nazi. people that hate that the idf left babies to die alone and scared are not nazis. not sure how this is controversial.

perhaps because words have definitions? You can't just call any bad guy you choose a Nazi. I know that's how guys tend to operate, but it isn't accurate

 

[mal3volent]

Accounts of Sexual Violence by Hamas Are Aired Amid Criticism of U.N.



I particularly liked this bit:

They will sadly ignore this just like the other evidence I've posted. I never would've thought the champions of women's rights and the me too movement would fall silent on this issue...

 

[mal3volent]

 

[montel]

Again, you miss the point entirely.

Savage, sick, barbaric attacks? Shocking? Horrendous?

All of those things - but those monsters, and they are monsters, didn't just fall out of a cornflakes packet one day. They are the product of the horrendous conditions they've grown up in. They are a product of Israel treating Palestinians like dirt, stealing their land and forcing them to live in the most densely populated place on Earth in what is, effectively, a very large prison. If you had grown up in those conditions, you too may well have become one of those monsters.

This is genocide.

Treat them like shit, break them entirely, watch them revolt - then go for the kill.

How about you ask yourself why they turned out like that? Because it's the big white elephant in the middle of the room that you're choosing to completely ignore.

The problem is that if you accept this line of thought, then Israel is clearly the aggressor - and this seems to be something you refuse to admit - or that you have difficulty reckoning with. This is also why you stress we should be concerned with the now and not the past - which is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You can't understand what's happening now without looking at the past.