Israel is under attack

[mal3volent]

Again, you miss the point entirely.

Savage, sick, barbaric attacks? Shocking? Horrendous?

All of those things - but those monsters, and they are monsters, didn't just fall out of a cornflakes packet one day. They are the product of the horrendous conditions they've grown up in. They are a product of Israel treating Palestinians like dirt, stealing their land and forcing them to live in the most densely populated place on Earth in what is, effectively, a very large prison. If you had grown up in those conditions, you too may well have become one of those monsters.

This is genocide.

Treat them like shit, break them entirely, watch them revolt - then go for the kill.

How about you ask yourself why they turned out like that? Because it's the big white elephant in the middle of the room that you're choosing to completely ignore.

The problem is that if you accept this line of thought, then Israel is clearly the aggressor - and this seems to be something you refuse to admit - or that you have difficulty reckoning with. This is also why you stress we should be concerned with the now and not the past - which is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You can't understand what's happening now without looking at the past.

Gaza isn't the most densely populated place on Earth-- not even close.

Monaco 48,145/sq. mi (Country)
Singapore 20,192/sq. mi (Country)
.
.
.
Gaza Strip 16,863/sq. mi

If you look at it from the city level, Gaza City doesn't even crack the top 85--

Gaza City 34,000/sq mi

List of cities proper by population density - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So another popular talking point debunked. Yes, The Gaza Strip is very densely populated. But no where close to the MOST densely populated.

 

[mal3volent]

This is genocide.

Is this what genocide looks like?

 

[mal3volent]

If you had grown up in those conditions, you too may well have become one of those monsters.

Let's see if you'll answer this time: why aren't there Native American terrorist groups who rape and murder thousands of civilians? They were victims of actual genocide, had their land stolen, and still face oppression to this day. Could it have anything to do with religion, do you think? Maybe just a little bit?

What about African Americans who were literally enslaved, murdered, raped, and considered less than human for 150+ years. Where are the African American terrorist organizations?

I mean, I could also ask about the Jewish people themselves. They also endured an actual genocide and centuries of oppression...

I could also ask you: if you were oppressed and lived in a very densely populated area , would you rape, murder, and behead innocent people? Would you cut off their genitals? Would you kidnap them and force them to kill their neighbors? Would you hack away at their necks with a shovel while shouting "god is great" ?

 

[-=SS=-]

If you had grown up in those conditions, you too may well have become one of those monsters.

I don't think you realize that you have actually just argued for the position I and others have touched within this thread;

When you say 'conditions', are you referring to all of their conditions? Or are you being selective and choosing to ignore their religious and cultural upbringing, instead merely choosing to focus on the oppression from only the Israeli state? I think we can assume which it is.

But you're right though. If I had grown up with parents foisting their religious beliefs and perpetual anger at another group of people on to my mind, then there would be a good chance I might end up with the desire to butcher and kill this other.

Have you seen the photos of the children? Not the ones being held by the weeping mothers amongst the rubble, but the ones wearing the head-scarfs and imitation weaponry?

There's one video which captures this tragedy and which genuinely upset me, and I say that having seen many of the butchery videos. It's the one of several young Gazan children taunting and hitting an Israeli boy with a stick, who was taken hostage on the 7th.

 

[CFC]

 

[mal3volent]

I think it's quite easy to hold those truths in your brain at the same time and recognize that both sides are to some degree fucked. It is very simple to write off what is going on as "both sides are shitty, it's all fucked". You can just add it on to the pile of everything else about our existences that is fucked and move on with your life.

I think it's much more difficult to choose to absorb a ton of information on a complex issue and recognize that while both sides are fucked, one side is overall much less fucked. Their motivations are less fucked, their intentions are less fucked, and their side prevailing will lead to an overall much less shitty outcome for humanity in general.

 

[CFC]

What mystifies me about the back-and-forth in this thread is that it's painfully clear to those of us not contributing that most of you all agree on virtually everything that matters:

Terrorism = bad
Killing innocents = bad
Oppression = bad
Pigheaded intransigence = bad
Discrimination = bad
Racism, homophobia, misogyny etc = bad

Everything else really is just details, and not worthy of such fiery disagreement when you're all 75% on the same page on everything.

Ultimately, the major players involved need to sit down and hammer out a hugely-compromised agreement that pleases nobody very much at all. Because those are always the ones that stick. I cite Northern Ireland for my evidence here. Anyone who knows a bit about that god-awful conflict will see the same patterns going on here.

Anyway, carry on, I love you all

 

[CrimsonRambeller820]

So I think it's very interesting that so many Americans have a pro-Israel opinion on this massacre happening in another country. I can't say this for all people, but with my high school and college education I did not know anything about the 1979 Iranian revolution. Most Americans also grew up during the Afghanistan war, which was just a grab for resources and didn't accomplish anything. With how little the average American knows about the history of the middle east, isn't it surprising to see so many blindly taking Israel's side? I doubt any people who watch the news every day to "see what's going on in the world" & also back Israel know any history about the region at all; and even knowing the history might not change much for anyone. The facts remain, Israel is all responsible for baby-killing, and a mass destruction with bombs of innocent lives. Um. That seems pretty much like a terrorist organization to me. In the movie Gotti, they tell him "we don't use bombs, too easy for civilian casualties" or something like that. Think, if a powerful organization that was originally formed to help the oppressed and give them a voice doesn't use bombs; what gives Israel a right to bomb indiscriminately & not by definition be the very terrorists they claim to be fighting. If I know anything about the USA, I would guarantee this whole thing was staged and every single one of the "hostages" are crisis actors. This may be an upopular opinion at the end of the day, but it remains what it is, just an opinion.

 

[mal3volent]

If I know anything about the USA, I would guarantee this whole thing was staged and every single one of the "hostages" are crisis actors.

Fantastic take. You'll fit right in here!

 

[someguyontheinternet]

What mystifies me about the back-and-forth in this thread is that it's painfully clear to those of us not contributing that most of you all agree on virtually everything that matters:

Terrorism = bad
Killing innocents = bad
Oppression = bad
Pigheaded intransigence = bad
Discrimination = bad
Racism, homophobia, misogyny etc = bad

Everything else really is just details, and not worthy of such fiery disagreement when you're all 75% on the same page on everything.

Ultimately, the major players involved need to sit down and hammer out a hugely-compromised agreement that pleases nobody very much at all. Because those are always the ones that stick. I cite Northern Ireland for my evidence here. Anyone who knows a bit about that god-awful conflict will see the same patterns going on here.

Anyway, carry on, I love you all

There is an awful lot of "all Muslims bad" sentiment on the pro-Israeli side. You can see it in the past few pages here even, saying that their culture and upbringing is inherently worse or that them losing is inherently better for global society. It's disgusting

 

[mal3volent]

that them losing is inherently better for global society. It's disgusting

you think Hamas winning is better for society?

 

[montel]

"Let's see if you'll answer this time: why aren't there Native American terrorist groups who rape and murder thousands of civilians? They were victims of actual genocide, had their land stolen, and still face oppression to this day. Could it have anything to do with religion, do you think? Maybe just a little bit?"

American Indian Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There were massacres by the Native American tribes - and on the other side.

This one was particularly brutal:

Sand Creek massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ...

— John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865[40]"

But perhaps Israel is more interested in the outcome?

"Indian tribes and coalitions often won battles with the encroaching settlers and soldiers, but their numbers were too few and their resources too limited to win more than temporary victories and concessions from the U.S. and other countries that colonized areas that had composed the modern-day borders of the U.S."

Sound familiar?

But I think people will find this story more interesting -

Israel’s use of disproportionate force is a long-established tactic – with a clear aim | Paul Rogers

The strategy goes well beyond defeating an opponent: it seeks to destroy key infrastructure and the economy, says academic Paul Rogers

www.theguardian.com

It seems the indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians is actually part of the official military strategy - and not just something we're making up.

 

[mal3volent]

"Let's see if you'll answer this time: why aren't there Native American terrorist groups who rape and murder thousands of civilians? They were victims of actual genocide, had their land stolen, and still face oppression to this day. Could it have anything to do with religion, do you think? Maybe just a little bit?"

American Indian Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There were massacres by the Native American tribes - and on the other side.

This one was particularly brutal:

Sand Creek massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ...

— John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865[40]"

But perhaps Israel is more interested in the outcome?

"Indian tribes and coalitions often won battles with the encroaching settlers and soldiers, but their numbers were too few and their resources too limited to win more than temporary victories and concessions from the U.S. and other countries that colonized areas that had composed the modern-day borders of the U.S."

Sound familiar?

But I think people will find this story more interesting -

Israel’s use of disproportionate force is a long-established tactic – with a clear aim | Paul Rogers

The strategy goes well beyond defeating an opponent: it seeks to destroy key infrastructure and the economy, says academic Paul Rogers

www.theguardian.com

It seems the indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians is actually part of the official military strategy - and not just something we're making up.

I'm not talking about when they were actively at war with each other. Obviously I mean after one side has won and assumed control. There were wars after Israel declared its independence , that would be a better analogy to what you posted. There are no Native American terrorist groups who, after being dominated and land taken from them, continued for decades and decades going out and purposely targeting civilians because they have a grievance about something that happened to their great granpappy 100 years ago. What happened to them was terrible but they accepted peace and moved on.

That is the way conquest has played out all through history.

Britain conquered that land, and they gave a piece of it to Israel. That's how it is. They deny peace deals because as they openly proclaim: "We love death more than life". Every dead fighter is a martyr. Every dead baby is a martyr. They go to paradise and their deaths with help benefit those left behind through propaganda and media manipulation. Swaying public sentiment through social media to put pressure on world leaders to force Israel to relent.

And it looks like it may be working. Their various ways of building the death count-- through the use of human shields, using civilian structures for military operations, preventing evacuations, and artificially inflating the civilian death count to include Hamas fighters... Team Biden have already been changing their language and pivoting to a more "stern" attitude toward Israel.

 

[swilow]

they never even a little bit fucking implied that, dude seriously why must you do that? it's really a shitty thing to do.

Whenever the attacks against Israel are mentioned, you guys start going on about ethnic cleansing. It's not me implying it.

They are a product of Israel treating Palestinians like dirt, stealing their land and forcing them to live in the most densely populated place on Earth in what is, effectively, a very large prison. If you had grown up in those conditions, you too may well have become one of those monsters.

Explain Isis then. Or Hezbollah or the Houthis or Al Qaeda or every other Islamic terrorist groups who do the exact same shit as Hamas and yet aren't living shitty lives in an open air prison. How is it that we see the same behaviour manifested by groups across very different cultural milieu? It must be a coincidence that Palestinian Christians who live in Gaza are rarely the Shahid's, right? What's the common factor that you guys continue to ignore in favour of this Robin Hood fantasy?

The fact is that without militant, jihadist Islam inflaming the minds of some young Palestinians, you just don't get the constant rocket attacks and the brutal security protocol from Israel just as without the brutal massacres of October 7th, you don't get the invasion and massive death toll in Gaza.

 

[Electrum1]

Same thing happened with airline stocks before 9/11

Unusual Option Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 on JSTOR

Allen M. Poteshman, Unusual Option Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001, The Journal of Business, Vol. 79, No. 4 (July 2006), pp. 1703-1726

www.jstor.org

Did Hamas make millions betting against Israeli shares before October 7 massacre?

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[montel]

"Explain Isis then. Or Hezbollah or the Houthis or Al Qaeda or every other Islamic terrorist groups who do the exact same shit as Hamas and yet aren't living shitty lives in an open air prison."

Yes, you're right. They're living in expensive beach-side condos with swimming pools.

 

[Electrum1]

This will totally change peoples minds into supporting them. They should do this outside of DMV's and also banks on Fridays because disrupting people from cashing paychecks and getting car titles transferred before the weekend will obviously get them to support the protests

 

[JGrimez]

palestinian is an ethic group ? I guess words can mean anything now right? Maybe I'm ethnically American? I was just using a generic definition of ethnic cleansing. If you want to use something you found from a biased source like the UN who can't even vote to condemn Hamas , be my guest. Lol.

Irish and Italians are ethnically different but you'd still call them white.
There are many different groups who are Arab or speak Arabic.

the point was their objective was to kill 100% civilians in their terror attack, and they accomplished that. The fact the IDF responded and some were killed is secondary.

Israel lied about the deaths numbers. 2000 dead was revised multiple times then the names were released and roughly 50% were military.

Israel's goal is not to kill civilians.

They're the most incompetent military in the world if that's true.

dude what are you talking about? Hamas admits they love death more than life.

Not true. It's just that some are willing to die in an attempt to help their descendants achieve a living situation that isn't Hell.

Do I think illegal settlements justify terror attacks, murder, and rape? No, not at all. Do I think that justifies a blanket narrative of occupation or oppression? Not really.

The settlements are physical proof that Israel is not serious about peace.
(you could also say that by all the bombing of innocents)

 

[JGrimez]

I've been following this for months. My feeds are basically all Israel Palestine shit. And I follow both sides. I've seen actually deaths yes, horrific... truly. But I've also seen demolished buildings in Syria advertised as Gaza. Dead Syrians advertised as Gazans. Also baby dolls advertised as real babies. Also old pictures from previous conflicts in Gaza advertised as recent.

15,000 dead bodies in an area the size of Las Vegas , you'd expect some pretty devastating evidence. I mean that's 5 9/11s worth of victims. Think about it.

High irony here as you need to think about it.
But what you're doing is giving nonsense reasons to justify NOT thinking about it.
Because you saw someone who pointed out a few videos had been faked means you can stop looking to find the mountain of videos which are legitimate.
Yes 15,000 civilians. It doesn't seem possible that a modern, evolved, progressive nation would ever indiscriminately bomb areas to the point that so many innocent people die.
This is why so many people are having a hard time right now as it's becoming VERY difficult to keep proving to everyone that we are the good guys.
But if you are questioning these death numbers then I would question how long (and how closely) you've been following this conflict

you mean the evidence I posted weeks ago that you still haven't responded to (and won't)

What evidence? Allegedly a small number of trusted journalists were allowed to see videos privately in a closed room. Those presstitutes repeating what the violent government is telling them is not evidence.
The official reason would be that it's too graphic for your sensitive eyes or they're thinking about the family (yet the IDF didn't think of the families of the INNOCENT ISRAELIS that they murdered on Oct 7 - fact admitted to by the IDF).
The unofficial reason is that the story is bullshit, emotional war propaganda that has no actual evidence. Same with the 40 beheaded babies...
FFS isn't anyone here old enough to remember "babies stabbed by bayonets in the incubators" lie from Iraq War 1?

look at our grimesy... a real humanitarian. A rape denier who thinks 'whites are right to be scared of blacks', but also cares so so much about Palestinians.

lol "rape denier", nice little tried-and-tested insult in an attempt to reframe the conversation.
You're actually the equivalent of a woman making false sexual assault allegations.
I'm an investigator asking for any evidence and you're the caricature clutching pearls and theatrically shrieking "how dare you suspect someone of lying! Believe ALL women/governments!"

'whites are right to be scared of blacks'

You were almost smart enough to use quotation marks there but are you claiming I said that verbatim?
Just because I'm able to explain why something is happening (and that explanation is too realistic for your fragile worldview based on untruths, which causes you discomfort) that doesn't mean I agree with it.

The settlers aren't even Zionists. Zionists were secular. The settlers are often religious maniac orthodox Jews. The violent ones are essentially all orthodox bigots. You know what i thinl about fundamentalist religious nutters by now.

They are by definition Zionists. This is also one of the problems with the country. It was founded by non-believers who used the stories of believers to justify its creation.
I assume that you think the actual Jewish religion is a bunch of nonsense. But you are justifying a group who show you a nonsense book and this book says that they lived there 2,000 years ago so they're allowed to displace the current, proven by historical evidence, population who'd been there for centuries and then torture them daily and mass-murder thousands with bombs.

Every country has this sort of person. That fact doesn't make it ethical to brutally kill people who live in the same country as the bigots nor should it mean that a country is not allowed to respond to that sort of brutality.

Are you OK with a country committing war crimes and breaking international law?
Do you think it's intelligent to focus on brutality in order to justify actions by a country that are far more brutal?

Accounts of Sexual Violence by Hamas Are Aired Amid Criticism of U.N.
I particularly liked this bit:

Just some advice, I would definitely not try and play the sexual violence angle with this.
We can then discuss IDF sexual abuse, Israel being used a safehaven for Jewish pedophiles who are facing the law abroad, the very hidden but extremely high rates of child sexual abuse in orthodox Jewish communities, the Israeli state's connnections to global organ trafficking, Israel funding Brownstone operations for eg. Epstein sexually exploiting minors so that foreign spy agencies could have power over US officials..... etc.....

Also none of that is evidence. I've heard some highly impassioned Holocaust stories that turned out to be completely fabricated.

 

[JGrimez]

Is this what genocide looks like?

Are you saying that if a country is terrible at committing genocide then it's not genocide?

Let's see if you'll answer this time: why aren't there Native American terrorist groups who rape and murder thousands of civilians? They were victims of actual genocide, had their land stolen, and still face oppression to this day. Could it have anything to do with religion, do you think? Maybe just a little bit?

This comparison is next-level stupid. They give Native Americans special permissions to engage in things which are illegal for whites. They're allocated large parts of the land. I haven't heard of the US government ever restricting food, water, electricity from these areas.

I think it's much more difficult to choose to absorb a ton of information on a complex issue and recognize that while both sides are fucked, one side is overall much less fucked. Their motivations are less fucked, their intentions are less fucked, and their side prevailing will lead to an overall much less shitty outcome for humanity in general.

What's even more difficult, that you haven't learned yet, is how to tell when something is bullshit or not.

So I think it's very interesting that so many Americans have a pro-Israel opinion on this massacre happening in another country.

It's because they're (only mildly consciously) aware of the Jewish power structure that they claim doesn't exist.

There is an awful lot of "all Muslims bad" sentiment on the pro-Israeli side. You can see it in the past few pages here even, saying that their culture and upbringing is inherently worse or that them losing is inherently better for global society. It's disgusting

Yeah it's actually crazy how much bigotry and racism I've been seeing here.
Because they only way that someone could take the moral high ground which what's going on is if they truly convince themselves that the other side are unworthy of living.