Kratom Isolated 7-OH-Mitragynine products are beginning to hit the market (!...?)

[Burnt Offerings]

Quality of these products are sometimes inconsistent but there’s still good kratom products on the market ime

I’m not sure if this is getting into “brand discussion” or whatever but I was recently impressed by a popular brand’s “full spectrum” variety of plain leaf capsules. My father recommended them to me and I didn’t pay much attention at the time but they’re actually really solid, so much so that I’d prefer taking a serving of them over a serving of extract. A lot of times some of the better experiences I’ve had with kratom came about from just sampling a variety with no preconceived notions and just see how she flies basically…I have had the experience of buying absolute crap sold as kratom but that hasn’t been all or even the majority of my experiences with it.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Am I correct in thinking that kratom comes from the leaf of a tree and it takes a couple of decades for the trees to grow to a size that allows for a decent yield?

So is it unreasonable to suggest that demand has outstripped supply.

 

[chippermonk]

Quality of these products are sometimes inconsistent but there’s still good kratom products on the market ime

I’m not sure if this is getting into “brand discussion” or whatever but I was recently impressed by a popular brand’s “full spectrum” variety of plain leaf capsules. My father recommended them to me and I didn’t pay much attention at the time but they’re actually really solid, so much so that I’d prefer taking a serving of them over a serving of extract. A lot of times some of the better experiences I’ve had with kratom came about from just sampling a variety with no preconceived notions and just see how she flies basically…I have had the experience of buying absolute crap sold as kratom but that hasn’t been all or even the majority of my experiences with it.

I just bought some powder from a local shop, my first time trying kratom. I tried 5mg and thought it was pretty nice (I have no opiate tolerance). Of course I can't compare it to kratom of past years, but I was surprised how much it reminded me of a small dose of percs or vicodin. Lasted maybe 4 hours? The comedown was kind of a mild drag at first but I felt normal by bedtime. I could mention the company by name, it was a chain and legal, but I assume I'm not supposed to so I won't. Anyhow, I'm curious, what is the likelihood that they could have mixed in some kind of RC drug? Seems like it would be risky for them legally and businesswise, especially since they have an established brick and mortar presence

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Sometimes it’s like that with kratom products. You can get a decent recreational experience if you’re not accustomed to it. While adulteration of certain kratom-branded products with other opioids like odsmt etc have occurred, I don’t think that’s common or likely.

Sometimes it’s inconsistent though, like I mentioned. The OPMS Gold capsules were like that for me…sometimes I’d take one and it would be an enjoyable experience, other times I’d take it and be underwhelmed. I’m not sure whether it’s a factor of dosing or tolerance, as kratom is kind of a weird in regards to how it interacts with the brain. I have had that experience after abstaining for a period of time and then taking a capsule, though, so part of me finds it hard to believe that it would be tolerance related, but who knows

As for dosing, I’m not super confident in the information provided by some of these kratom ventures. Kratom exists kind of in a liminal space between an illegal drug and something like Tylenol, and that can attract some shady business practices, I get that. But at the same time my own experience over the last few years or so (I’ve been using kratom off-and-on for almost ten years now) hasn’t been one of non-stop inferior/under-dosed products.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Common government drug war L

 

[Jabberwocky]

The withdrawals from this stuff are really bad.

I was up to about 60-75mg of 7-OH per day. Tolerance set in, so I started adding stupid amounts of mitragynine on top of it, like 1500mg per day.

It got kind of out of control. My liver started hurting. I spent way too much money on that shit.

The withdrawal feels like an extreme version of kratom withdrawal. The agitation and RLS is truly nightmarish. You also get sick like with traditional opioids.

I almost caved and went to go back on suboxone, but stopped myself. Have been doing an intense taper the last week. I've been using about 300mg mitragynine per day, and this is just enough to sleep. I'm in withdrawal most of the day even with that amount.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Kratom got a bad name in Europe after a few people died after taking kratom that had been adulterated with O-DMT.

A few people have asked me to look at GCMS and NMR data & COAs from 'independent' companies and I have to say it was always very sketchy. I would always have to point out that their was no way to know said data actually represented the material that they had bought.

Now, an independent COA only works IF you are asking for something totally novel on a one-off basis i.e. their would be no way for the supplier to use the COA from one batch on another... because their IS only one batch.

People would do well to club together and to pay for some instrumental analysis to work out if their is a reliable supplier.

As I've previously noted, 7-OH mitragynine can be made from mitragynine but their are only a few routes, none are simple and the majority involve the use of heavy metals. Certainly heavy metals seem to be commonly found in kratom samples. I don't know if it's an artifact of synthesis or it's the fact that the trees were planted in soils that were contaminated.

I'm still not quite sure why 7-OH mitragynine hasn't been legally controlled yet. MAYBE their is a historic reason i.e. kratom is classed as a 'traditional herbal medicine'.

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

I’ve been taking these tabs on & off the last week or so going through tramadol (& tail end of hydromorphone) withdrawal … the tabs are from 2 different places … one of the kinds of tabs pretty much stopped the tramadol withdrawal but I noticed when it wore off I was sweating & kicking around in bed

 

[Juicewrldfan]

BTW Mitragynine can be oxidized to 7-hydroxymitragynine so is it natural or semi-synthetic? Neither of the two routes I know of are particularly friendly. One uses lead tetraacetate, the other uses PIFA (explosion hazard).

https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/controlled-substances/unedited--advance-copy-44th-ecdd-review-report_kratom.pdf?sfvrsn=8d699207_8&download=true

When you say friendly you are speaking about the actual process of synthesizing it, right?

Just making sure that you didn’t mean it leaves solvents in it or byproducts

 

[AlsoTapered]

When you say friendly you are speaking about the actual process of synthesizing it, right?

Just making sure that you didn’t mean it leaves solvents in it or byproducts

By rights no byproducts or solvents should be left in the product BUT intermediates may be.

I mean 'friendly' as in not needing highly toxic heavy metals or reagents that represent an explosion hazard. I don't know if PIFA is still in common use due to reports of explosions. It's certainly unsuited to larger scales due to this issue.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

By rights no byproducts or solvents should be left in the product BUT intermediates may be.

I mean 'friendly' as in not needing highly toxic heavy metals or reagents that represent an explosion hazard. I don't know if PIFA is still in common use due to reports of explosions. It's certainly unsuited to larger scales due to this issue.

I always thought that they just oxidize the leaf and then extract it? I’m getting the feeling that I am wrong about that.

Not trying to get step by step instructions I know synthesis aren’t allowed.

 

[kiely]

wow - i bimp this thread. i was just wondering about this though.

i have some bags of kratom. i don't even know what to do with it. yet.

now it's in my alerts.

ty

 

[AlsoTapered]

Coca and cocaine production | www.emcdda.europa.eu

This resource is part of EU Drug Market: Cocaine — In-depth analysis by the EMCDDA and Europol.

www.emcdda.europa.eu

I believe the permangamate is added to remove other alkaloids.

I don't know much about cocaine production. I mean, I'm impressed by how the people in South America have been able to telescope down the extraction and purification to a matter of a few buckets, a few solvents and know how BUT it's the drug connected with the most violence.

It seems to me that anyone producing clofenciclan would be subtracting from that truly massive death-toll.

 

[Morphiniandesign]

Are you familiar with the ZaZa, Tianna, Pegasus, or TD brand bottles? They come in various “colors” like Green, Red, White, Silver. It’s intended to seem like Kratom, but it has Tianeptine Sodium, Combretum Quadrangular Leaf, Piper Methystricum (Kava Kava - if you get the “red” strain), Alpha GPC (white strain), or Phenibut (silver).

They FLY off the shelves. In NC, they were insanely popular and when I would run out of tianeptine sodium powder I would buy them myself. Each bottle has an unknown amount of Tianeptine because it’s all a proprietary blend. The silvers were especially nasty because people would develop of Phenibut dependence along with Tianeptine.

There was a paper done on the actual amounts of tianeptine found in the ZaZa pills. They came out to 45mg +-3mg per pill. Just in case you didn't see that report.

 

[Morphiniandesign]

I'm certain that the Japanese team that studied the alkaloids in kratom would have carried out animal models of toxicity. That it appears to be self-limiting due to it's side-effect profile is possibly a good thing it terms of kratom's legal status.

But until you know what's actually in those tablets, it's hard to know exactly what produced the subjective effects. I do know that the kratom alkaloids were considered too toxic to be used as medicines.

As I noted, eseroline is another potential 'natural' opiate BUT it showed toxicity in animal models. I only mentioned it because if people are prepared to sell one compound considered too toxic to be used medically (but which is currently legal in many nations) then I cannot help thinking they would be just as happy to sell another. Physostigma venenosum (calabar bean) appears to grow in many climates... I wouldn't touch it, but some people fixate of 'legal' much more than 'safe'.

could you say which alkaloids were toxic and to which organs or parts of the body? about 8 years ago I had a heavy addiction to Kratom where I was taking 100-120 grams per day at night and after a year of that I started to get worried about possible toxic effects. Luckily I decided at the time to start taking accutane through my dermatologist. I had to get monthly blood work done to get my next months prescription. I was expecting my liver values to be slightly elevated for sure. Yet, the only elevated values were a slightly out of range while blood cell count.

I know this wasn't a very comprehensive test but rather a plain metabolic panel but still showed nothing elevated. I was quite young at the time and in very very good physical shape so maybe that played a part?

 

[AlsoTapered]

could you say which alkaloids were toxic and to which organs or parts of the body?

I'm not suggesting that any kratom alkaloids are especially toxic to a particular organ. All I have noted is that heavy metals seem to turn up in samples of kratom on quite a regular basis. It's those heavy metals that are potentially chronic toxins.

I did take the time to understand this a little better and it appears that mitragyna speciosa is being planted on plots of land that have almost no inherent value because they are contaminated by heavy metals. I think that makes sense. Nobody is prepared to plant a food crop or to live on such plots but if you can grow and export a plant, the problem shows up in the nations the plants are exported to.

There are (dubious in my opinion) labs in the US that offer certificate of analysis for kratom products and they all seem to offer testing for the presence of heavy metals (at an additional cost). Unless they have reason to believe that it's at least a known issue, I don't think they would offer the service.

Of course, everything I state is to the best of my knowledge. I only spent a day looking at papers and so there may be toxic alkaloid(s) I am simply unaware of.

 

[Morphiniandesign]

Except that tolerance to opioids can actually be effectively blocked by the application of microdoses of Naltrexone. Not only studies and numerous anecdotal user reports exist on the effectivity of ultra low dose naltrexone in lowering opioid tolerance and potentiating its effects, but an entire chapter was devoted to this exact mechanism by the german pain medicine pundit Enno Freye in his book "Opioide in der Medizin" (there is also an english translation but only up to the 6th edition and I'm not sure if that chapter exists in that edition). I'm using ULDN myself since the beginning of 2022 and have kept my tolerance to opioids at a stable level ever since then (I only increase when I want a stronger high but can decrease with no problems afterwards). It literally hasn't increased since then. There is even an american documentary about the effectiveness of ULDN. One of the doctors who was interviewed in that documentary told a story about a patient of one of his colleagues who was on a daily dose of 3.000mg Oxy and reduced to ZERO in just 10 days without any withdrawal symptoms. It works and it's amazing...

Thank you for writing this. I downloaded the textbook (one with the orange cover) and it is indeed in the book on page 381 in the book or 391 in the PDF. Haven't read the pages yet but am very interested to see what is written compared to the papers ive read on google scholar.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

There was a paper done on the actual amounts of tianeptine found in the ZaZa pills. They came out to 45mg +-3mg per pill. Just in case you didn't see that report.

Is that a low dose? Because I took an entire bottle because I felt absolutely nothing from them but then my opioid tolerance is shot

 

[Juicewrldfan]

I'm not suggesting that any kratom alkaloids are especially toxic to a particular organ. All I have noted is that heavy metals seem to turn up in samples of kratom on quite a regular basis. It's those heavy metals that are potentially chronic toxins.

I did take the time to understand this a little better and it appears that mitragyna speciosa is being planted on plots of land that have almost no inherent value because they are contaminated by heavy metals. I think that makes sense. Nobody is prepared to plant a food crop or to live on such plots but if you can grow and export a plant, the problem shows up in the nations the plants are exported to.

There are (dubious in my opinion) labs in the US that offer certificate of analysis for kratom products and they all seem to offer testing for the presence of heavy metals (at an additional cost). Unless they have reason to believe that it's at least a known issue, I don't think they would offer the service.

Of course, everything I state is to the best of my knowledge. I only spent a day looking at papers and so there may be toxic alkaloid(s) I am simply unaware of.

Metals have always been an issue since I’ve been using kratom. Some vendors have less heavy metals than others and yeah there are some shady labs

 

[ownstrength]

I just started sampling the Hydroxie 30mg 7-OH shots and initial experience is that it's much more pleasant than regular mitragynine to me. Took my first shot yesterday and trying second shot today.

I get more euphoria and less dysphoria. If this is consistently the case I expect it to be more dependency forming. However, I also expect it to be much safer biologically and socially than other options.

I am still determined to return to abstinence but currently a bit stuck in harm reduction (which right now means only legal and relatively safe substances: kratom, cannabis, and bupe.