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Kratom Isolated 7-OH-Mitragynine products are beginning to hit the market (!...?)

Any urinary retention?
Slightly. Nothing like other opioids, though.

Kratom powder acts as a powerful diuretic for me. It's actually a major issue, leads to really bad dehydration in me.

7-OH did not cause increased urination. It was slightly more difficult to urinate and empty my bladder, but wasn't really an issue. Nothing like urinary retention I've experienced from traditional opioids. Could be an issue in other people, though.
 
BTW anyone who has investigated the QSAR of the 'Bentley Compounds' i.e. etorphine/buprenorphine and so on will note that the 6-methoxy moiety is KEY. The fact that their is an -OH moiety right next to it means that the O: interacts with the H... JUST like 7-hydroxymitragynine.

It's identification of key moieties and key interactions that defines the pharmocore and in spite of this detail of the Bentley compounds having been established many years ago, nobody seems to have mentioned it in regards to 7-hydroxymitragynine.

And as I also point out - drugs are 3D molecules so don't look at them in 2D. PubMed offers a free way to see what mitragynine ACTUALLY looks like and it is NOT clear in a 2-D image that those ester, ether and alkyl side-chains on the D-ring do not extent 'to the right' or 'downwards' but are actually parallel to that D-ring.
 
I really want to know what compound in kratom gives the energetic feeling. I don't think its mitragynine, I haven't noticed a correlation with mit and energy levels and it sounds like it definitely isn't 7-OH-mit
The type of energy get from kratom seems similar to the type of energy I get from all opiates. I never thought of kratom having anything to do with adrenaline like say yohimbine. If that were the case I do not think some people would take it and go right back to sleep. When I was using poppy tea or heroin I would get blasts of energy and clean my house, or just nod. Kratom seems similar to me, but of course not as strong at all.
 
Anyone ever have success with Amanitas extracts? Only time that drug worked was Washington DC A++ caps I had two pretty big ones and completely lost my mind on a military base of all places. Luckily it was a party base so I didn't get discovered. I literally fell down the stairs and my shoes came off just like Sol Rosenberg from the Jerky Boys. Never had 1% of that "buzz" from supposedly large doses of extracts. Definitely wouldn't repeat eating caps because it's impossible to dose accurately.
 
Anyone ever have success with Amanitas extracts? Only time that drug worked was Washington DC A++ caps I had two pretty big ones and completely lost my mind on a military base of all places. Luckily it was a party base so I didn't get discovered. I literally fell down the stairs and my shoes came off just like Sol Rosenberg from the Jerky Boys. Never had 1% of that "buzz" from supposedly large doses of extracts. Definitely wouldn't repeat eating caps because it's impossible to dose accurately.
I have the same curiosity myself. These amanita products are flooding the US, I see them in every headshop now. I've tried such products long ago, before they were popular, and never had any effect. There was one guy who posted a thread about enjoying the extracts and even tripping on them, a few months ago.

I really don't want to trip, though. At the moment I am only interested in the GABAergic properties of it, and possibly aiding in benzo taper/withdrawal.

I bought a bunch of the "microdose" gummies from the same vendor I got the 7-OH. They contain 2mg muscimol each. Maybe I'll try them tomorrow.

I just want relaxation/sleep benefits, nothing majorly psychoactive.
 


Compare mitragynine and mitragynine pseudoindoxyl. In the former all 4 rings are virtually planer but in the latter the C & D rings are rotated by 90°. Now that basic nitrogen doesn't move very much and that ester/ether/alkene system still ends up in the same relative position to the A & B ring (the indole system).

So the question to ask is what amino-acid residue does that D-ring substitution bind to? I think the chiral ethyl MIGHT act like the 3-methyl in fentanyl, prodine and even U-47700 (where it's part of the amide). All the books suggest that such substituents 'enhance mu receptor recognition'.

Consider that thiafentanil with it's ether and ester functions were specifically designed to bind to the amino acid residues around the binding site of the fentanyl class.


What interests me about opioids is that while rational design and high-throughput screening were able to identify ligands, the truth is that their are STILL many 'classic' statements that later work appears to disprove. The classic being that 'phenolic and non-phenolic opioids bind at different sites. In SPITE of the fact that if the phenol is removed from ketobemidine, it's still active (but much less so) but more recently the BDPC homologue lacking the p-Br but with a m-OH proved to be an antagonist.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, it appears that antagonist activity relies on a phenolic (or bioisostere) aromatic and then that side-chain becomes important. While 3-methyl ketobemidone was produced and is stated to be antagonist, I can find no evidence that the four enantiomers were resolved and tested separately. That picenalol has both an agonist and antagonist enantiomer suggests that it's simply been overlooked.

That's the problem - lots of the work on opioids took place a long time ago and so their are still commonly held beliefs which data disproves or at best, the data was insufficient.
 
7-OH may not cause dysphoria during the comedown after all. I believe I've actually been experiencing minor withdrawal symptoms from a different kratom alkaloid since I switched from leaf powder to only using 7-OH exclusively. Minor symptoms that weren't super obvious; depression, anhedonia, irritability, lethargy, etc. Similar withdrawal symptoms to such things as therapeutic daily adderall use.

Since resuming my regular kratom use, I have not experienced any dysphoria during the comedown from 7-OH.

Also, tolerance to the opioid effects from 7-OH develops quite rapidly. After 3-4 days of use I no longer get very strong effects from 7.5mg doses. Hard to say, taking 30mg may have spiked my tolerance heavily.

Further evidence that it should only be used for pain, or for occasional recreational use on top of kratom leaf.
 
@someguyontheinternet
@4meSM
On the other hand I'm wondering if it's a good idea to study chemistry in my free time just because of my fascination with opioids. I mean it ain't like I could analyze, let alone synthesize that stuff even if I had expert knowledge in chemistry. You need lab equipment and that is extremely expensive...
 
Remember chemistry is more than just lab work. Not to mention there are computational chemistry techniques for pharmacology such as docking

 
@someguyontheinternet
@4meSM
On the other hand I'm wondering if it's a good idea to study chemistry in my free time just because of my fascination with opioids. I mean it ain't like I could analyze, let alone synthesize that stuff even if I had expert knowledge in chemistry. You need lab equipment and that is extremely expensive...
I believe it really depends on your objectives. Would you want to work in an actual lab in the future?

I think the golden age for the home chemist has passed. Previously, even semi-amateur chemists could conduct a wide range of experiments in their homes/garages. Nowadays, it's hard to even buy proper labware.

Dealing with opioids is complex. You may be able to perform exactions and maybe some very basic reactions if you're really careful, creative and willing to break the law lol (not recommended).
As for working with opioids in an academic or industrial context, it’s very challenging. Without at least a master’s degree, you're basically looking at a job as a lab assistant/technician (which can still be cool). In the academic sphere, very few labs specialize in opioids. Gaining access to them would likely require a position at the post-doctoral level. On the industry front, there’s a distinction between R&D and production. For R&D, a PhD is generally necessary if you want to join a pharma company as a medicinal chemist. As for production, the best think I can think of would be looking for a very specific position working on the opium fields in a country like Spain (probably requires good connections).
 
Or you could just run a bunch of docking experiments in silico using ligands that aren't controlled under your local law, find ones with good binding affinity and pay a lab to synth them for your own enjoyment

Here's the mu opioid receptor. Knock your socks off

 
@4meSM
@someguyontheinternet
How about going at this from a completely different angle? I once had the (perhaps crazy) idea of writing a business plan, including financial projections for the first three years to convince investors even more, for founding a pharmaceutical company specializing solely in the manufacturing and marketing of opioid medications in underserved markets, and since I would technically "work" for my own company as a (non-)executive director I could learn from my own chemists within a completely legal framework. Perhaps this idea actually isn't crazy because it is much more unrealistic to pursue such an end (experimenting chemically with opioid substances) as a private individual, rather than doing this strategically with proper licenses and regulatory compliance. I could then for instance make a deal with one of the chemists of the R&D department (the most talented ofc), to instruct me in this science by offering both intrinsic as well as extrinsic rewards (career advancement for the former, and financial rewards for the latter). This whole endeavor would in fact fulfill three of my biggest dreams in life: 1) satisfy my scientific nature/mentality (in this case my fascination with chemistry in regards to the molecules that make up the substance class known as opioids), 2) satisfy my entrepreneurial nature (always loved the idea of making big 💲💲💲, in this case by pushing the most addictive drug in a completely legal way to the masses, perhaps in developing countries where officials can be bribed and corrupted more easily and regulation as well as competition is less intense) and 3) supply my junky self with a quasi-limitless, on-demand amount of opioids, synthesized off the books (meaning not recorded and documented in any shape or form so as to not trigger any investigation by regulators).

I can't actually see myself execute this whole idea though. I think you need very, very good connections for this to work out because the pharma-industrial complex is a highly regulated (which is code for big corporations actively preventing small enterprises from becoming a competitive threat to their position) environment. So we circle back to trying to learn and experiment with opioid chemistry by oneself as a private individual which is perhaps even more unrealistic. I definitely live in the wrong era. Wish I lived at the end of the 19th century where Citizen Science was an actual thing and doing practical science wasn't such a highly regulated environment with astronomically expensive lab equip and impossible-to-get chemical precursors. Science should be, in my humble opinion, a completely anarchistic world. Speaking of science, genetic engineering is also a fascinating subject. I'd probably try to genetically engineer homeostasis out of existence to make drug tolerance a thing of the past lol. Oh well, at least I can dream about all these things...


Oh and thanks for the link someguyontheinternet, I find this one here quite interesting: https://www.rcsb.org/structure/6DDF
I'm currently reading up on the G-Protein signalling of the Filamin A protein complex and how microdosing of naltrexone intervenes and basically "hacks" this process in order to put back and keep the switch at the Gi-Protein and how this lowers tolerance to opioids and keeps it permanently at a low level by preventing it from ever going back to the Go-Protein. I'm experiencing this from a practical perspective since almost two years now, but understanding it from a theoretical perspective further adds to my knowledge and makes it even more interesting to me. Yeah, as you can see, neuropharmacology is yet another scientific subfield that fascinates me.
There just isn't enough time in life to study all these things. If the devil was real I'd sell my soul to him to live long enough in order to learn all these sciences, apply all of them and have fun while doing it (and of course profit from it both financially and recreationally).
 
If you want to understand filamin A I would recommend studying some basic cell biology and learning about the cytoskeleton and the role of structural proteins in regulating the insertion of receptors in the membrane. My research is closely related, structural proteins are a decently hot topic of research right now because of how they're involved in synaptic regulation which is a big determinant of the response of a neuron to transmitters
 
If you want to understand filamin A I would recommend studying some basic cell biology and learning about the cytoskeleton and the role of structural proteins in regulating the insertion of receptors in the membrane. My research is closely related, structural proteins are a decently hot topic of research right now because of how they're involved in synaptic regulation which is a big determinant of the response of a neuron to transmitters
Wait, wait...Filamin A is also responsible in actually inserting receptors into cell membranes? I thought it's only job was signal transduction and modulation of receptor binding preferences. I need to look more deeply into this...
 
Up and down regulation is caused in part by varying the amount of receptors in the membrane available for binding transmitters so when you become tolerant to an opioid, receptors are taken inside the cell to make them unavailable and inserted into the membrane when the drug is out of the system for long enough
 
Up and down regulation is caused in part by varying the amount of receptors in the membrane available for binding transmitters so when you become tolerant to an opioid, receptors are taken inside the cell to make them unavailable and inserted into the membrane when the drug is out of the system for long enough
What I'd like to know is WHY the body is even doing this? What is the whole point of tolerance? Does it prevent something harmful from happening to the organism? I don't think that's the case, otherwise my constant ULDN upregulation would have long caused some negative health effect. I think it might be some kind of evolutionary maladaption, but that's just me with my incomplete knowledge speculating...
 
What I'd like to know is WHY the body is even doing this? What is the whole point of tolerance? Does it prevent something harmful from happening to the organism? I don't think that's the case, otherwise my constant ULDN upregulation would have long caused some negative health effect. I think it might be some kind of evolutionary maladaption, but that's just me with my incomplete knowledge speculating...
Homeostatis. Cells have homeostatic drive, feedback mechanisms to regulate cellular processes and keep them at some basal level

Give too much agonist and the cell decreases sensitivity to keep the level of signaling at roughly the same level. Give an antagonist and it increases sensitivity to let more signal through
 
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