Is it possible MDMA has actually helped with my depression?

[laugh]

lol maya please. on that eventful you night you fried your brain did you actually take mdma or was it an untested, unidentified, unknown substance? be honest now.. you ignored the question posed over in hl didnt you.

Finished could help everyone here if he would just post a credible reference for his claims. its not that difficult surely.

anything can be neurotoxic at dangerous doses, that is obvious, whether mdma will rearrange your brain from a dose as being suggested and vehemently defended is a little different.

You have to realize i am a drug user, an addict rather.

thats not very healthy mate. why dont you educate yourself before attempting to educate others?

As I've said before in other threads, i was a responsible user who spaced out his usage. Yet i still ran into a load of psychological problems, meaning this must be a very neuro-toxic drug as almost every study will state....

maybe it is you, just maybe. i can lift weights for the rest of my life and not get as big as some people that are built for getting big. i could train for the 100m sprint every second of the remainder of my life and still never run under 10sec. some people can some people can't. do you follow?

im not claiming mdma is totally without risks that would be naive and stupid but i am saying it is not as dangerous as some of you people are claiming. your are spreading fear not fact. please provide the fact and prove me and others wrong.

 

[F1n1shed]

There is no logical conversation when it comes to you. There are research papers ALL over the net stating it causes LONG term axonal damage/loss AND long term SERT down regulation / damage. That along with other things, I even posted 2 studies in this thread which you some how think is a lie?

'anything can be neurotoxic at dangerous doses'
Actually MDMA is neurotoxic at recreational doses. MOST drugs are NOT neuro toxic. I can smoke weed for 1 year straight every day. Quit and with in a few weeks or even less my brain will be back to where it was.
Even if you were to do MDMA once a week for a year, and quit. You would end up with a severely damaged serotonin system. Seriously laugh , you have no idea what you are talking about.

MDMA along with Meth will take you to brain damage faster than any other main stream drug. Stop being ignorant.

 

[laugh]

where are these reputable papers Finished?

im not being ignorant, im open to you proving me wrong, please do prove me wrong. i feel the only ignorance is that which you are projecting..

 

[angeleyes]

^ Meth till death?

Guys this escalated pretty quickly, references please, like specific independent free the whales Shulgin lovin results please.

@Finished not shooting you down here but it would take longer than a few weeks to recover from a year of daily bud smoking, 3 months if that the brain would be like 50% recovered depending on how much of a baked cookie you are, speaking from my own experience there but I agree MDMA is especially neurotoxic in large or frequent doses but I agree with Laugh there anything can be in larges doses.

 

[F1n1shed]

^ Meth till death?

Guys this escalated pretty quickly, references please, like specific independent free the whales Shulgin lovin results please.

@Finished not shooting you down here but it would take longer than a few weeks to recover from a year of daily bud smoking, 3 months if that the brain would be like 50% recovered depending on how much of a baked cookie you are, speaking from my own experience there but I agree MDMA is especially neurotoxic in large or frequent doses but I agree with Laugh there anything can be in larges doses.

Thing is, even with moderate doses MDMA can do some pretty hefty damage. That's all i'm trying to point out , Serotonin releasing drugs are among the most toxic to the brain. More so than dopamine releasers. It's all good, people can roll if they want to i'm just glad i'm off the stuff. My over all mood is more stable, i don't deal with DR and DP / anxiety anymore etc etc.

 

[oscthebooklad]

Thing is, even with moderate doses MDMA can do some pretty hefty damage. That's all i'm trying to point out , Serotonin releasing drugs are among the most toxic to the brain. More so than dopamine releasers. It's all good, people can roll if they want to i'm just glad i'm off the stuff. My over all mood is more stable, i don't deal with anymore etc etc.

Do you not think it might be possible that you were always more susceptible to DR and DP / anxiety and the MDMA merely aggravated it and brought it out? Our brains are all wired differently, so it makes perfect sense that we will all react differently to different drugs. I get aggressive on whiskey, so I don't drink whiskey. This doesnt mean that whiskey is any more dangerous than any other spirit of similar alcohol %.

No hate at all. I respect that you have chosen not to take MD, in light on bad comedowns and experiences, and you help people on here going through the same sorts of thing. But spreading unfounded fear on here that we will all be damaged by any recreational use does not good, other than provoking anxiety and paranoia which you must be accustomed to yourself.

 

[JWills20]

Thing is, even with moderate doses MDMA can do some pretty hefty damage. That's all i'm trying to point out , Serotonin releasing drugs are among the most toxic to the brain. More so than dopamine releasers. It's all good, people can roll if they want to i'm just glad i'm off the stuff. My over all mood is more stable, i don't deal with DR and DP / anxiety anymore etc etc.

There is no conclusive evidence for moderate doses of MDMA causing hefty damage. It might, there's also every chance it might not.

I also don't really understand your response. You appear to have editted it removing '

Didn't i say it caused axonal loss or degenerated them.... hmm sounds like i did. Also i said SERT levels were lower ... didn't I? Yes as in the serotonin transporter, although recovery is possible who knows to what degree.'

If SERT (Reuptake Transporters) were depleted then MDMA would, in theory, make us happier. Indeed, SSRI's are proposed to work by blocking the SERT increasing the Serotonin residing in the synaptic cleft. Just like MOAI's are meant to reduce the metabolic breakdown of serotonin thereby increasing synaptic concentrations and treating depression. If MDMA caused a reduction of SERT it would, hypothetically, cause a similar effect right? Reduced reuptake transporters = more serotonin in the synapse = increased mood. Unsurprising that you editted that part of your post! With all due respect, it seems a rather basic mistake for someone who has

posted credible research papers before

. Unless I'm missing something as to why reduced SERT would be a bad thing?

I really don't understand your arguement. How are you so hellbent on MDMA-induced damage? There is obviously a strong argument against MDMA-induced damage if someone far more knowledgable & qualified than us (Professor Nutt) questions how damaging it really is. Then even goes out on a limb & loses his respectable job & his reputation just for saying that MDMA is not actually as dangerous as the Government say it is. I agree that many of us users might be biased, but I see no convincing reason why Professor Nutt would be biased to making such a conclusion? Can't really see him fitting in with your average gurners at a rave.

 

[F1n1shed]

I really don't understand your arguement. How are you so hellbent on MDMA-induced damage? There is obviously a strong argument against MDMA-induced damage if someone far more knowledgable & qualified than us (Professor Nutt) questions how damaging it really is. Then even goes out on a limb & loses his respectable job & his reputation just for saying that MDMA is not actually as dangerous as the Government say it is. I agree that many of us users might be biased, but I see no convincing reason why Professor Nutt would be biased to making such a conclusion? Can't really see him fitting in with your average gurners at a rave.

The reason i am hellbent on saying MDMA causes damage is because i noticed it even after my first time rolling (3 pills, tested MDMA).
Never had i felt so fucked up waking up, looking in the mirror and feeling like a crack head. Depression and anxiety lasted all the way until my next roll, which was approx 1 month later.

Here's a little comparison, damage wise. My first time doing meth, i smoked it all night with some people. The crash was hardly bad, i just slept and felt pretty fine. Low energy the next day, but my mood and stuff was fine after 2 days. Meth is known to be the most evil drug, toxic as hell. But for me to recover that fast off it, i realised MDMA is the more toxic chemical. Not saying to do meth, It is a horrible drug. Just pointing out that even after an all nighter on meth, the comedown/recovery was a walk in the park compared to ecstasy.

If you really want to know about MDMA and the brain, i would advise you to read FirstBadComedowns posts. They are always long as hell, and he goes in depth with every detail. He knows a lot more info on the subject than i do.

In all fairness though, i have had some dirty pills in my rolling days. Which must have caused some nasty damage. But regardless , even when i had clean MDMA pills my mood would be off for a long time. I am a very self aware person, so i pay close attention to everything i am feeling.

 

[angeleyes]

I am going to agree with Finished on the above, rolling weekly for a month I spent at least 4 months recovering abstaining from all adulterants in my attempts to recover, I seriously believed I achieved 60% of my functional memory back, before it happened all again in June in what was the best month of my life as I found myself in situations where caps and pills would literally be handed to me and I would just consume, (knowing full well that they were always tested and from highly trusted sources) although mixing it between MDA and MDMA I felt a bit better due to reading something on it by Shulgin. I used it as a tool for the most stressful month of my job, but I don't see this as a regret I see it has a crutch but it left me very damaged.


For the first week of July I saw the world as if I took a step back from my former self and then looked behind a veil, now I am an absolute health nut in terms of nutrition and harm reduction for others because if my experiences have taught me anything it is that I can help other people not go down this same path.

I finish my job tomorrow where I am taking a break and getting my health back on track before I enter the workforce again, but I hope to move interstate because I don't like where I am.


For the time being and for the foreseeable future until at least January I am not touching a thing apart from receeational social drinking, when I reach January I will take it from there it's just good to have a decent reasonable goal and 6 months 'sober' is pretty easy when I remind myself of the consequences..



Long story short I agree with finished on the above, MD is crazy neurotoxic and worse than meth or any other drug short term. I agree with his statement about keeping awake for 24 hours on meth and still feeling a lot better and more "with it" than MD anyday of the week.

 

[F1n1shed]

^ Thank you, someone logical here.
People see me as an ass hole on the ecstasy discussion forum because i bring the truth. They are all biased users who will not admit to any negatives with MD. It's all good , it's in human nature for people to defend the things they are doing.

 

[angeleyes]

Hahahahaha don't stress. I bet people see me as some hippy who wants to love everything and keep all the "fun reduced" AKA harm reduction lol but its up to other posters/viewers/OPs to take our views and make an informed decision, if we can present the facts well and personal experiences then hopefully others can learn from others like the whole point of this forum.

PLUR

 

[laugh]

People see me as an ass hole on the ecstasy discussion forum because i bring the truth. They are all biased users who will not admit to any negatives with MD.

that is complete nonsense!

It's all good , it's in human nature for people to defend the things they are doing.

you are projecting again.

its up to other posters/viewers/OPs to take our views and make an informed decision, if we can present the facts well and personal experiences then hopefully others can learn from others like the whole point of this forum.

agree.

 

[rave_itsrealfun!!!]

I think that you are experiencing an extended afterglow. It can definitely do that, especially at first. However, at the end of the day, you are still you. You are still depressed underneath the chemical imbalances that rolling has initiated. You must have had problems in your life that make you depressed, and taking a pill doesn't really do anything for that. You were just pushed so forcefully in a positive direction by such an awesome incredible mind blowing good time that you end up staying there for a while after. It's really nice, but it is something that mainly new users will get. I fail to see how a neurotoxic, very dangerous and physically damaging drug like Mdma can be a magic cure for depression. I think that you are masking your symptoms temporarily, and that they will eventually worsen, because of the various ways in which Mdma takes away from you. Not only could you completely screw your brains, but you might have a weakened liver and heart as well, because Mdma wrecks havoc on the body and it's very dangerous to even be a light user of it, in terms of how I define danger (I take my health pretty seriously now). Although you are seeing residual positive effects in your mood from having an extremely positive experience, eventually there is nothing but shit that will come out of using this nonsense.

Mdma is how you have the best time of your life for a night in exchange for brain damage and other various physical damages. It has no place in medicine, your brain seems unstable to begin with. And Mdma is a straight up shock - cortisol levels go through the roof. I fail to see how that is in any way healthy.

 

[JWills20]

The reason i am hellbent on saying MDMA causes damage is because i noticed it even after my first time rolling (3 pills, tested MDMA).
Never had i felt so fucked up waking up, looking in the mirror and feeling like a crack head. Depression and anxiety lasted all the way until my next roll, which was approx 1 month later.

Here's a little comparison, damage wise. My first time doing meth, i smoked it all night with some people. The crash was hardly bad, i just slept and felt pretty fine. Low energy the next day, but my mood and stuff was fine after 2 days. Meth is known to be the most evil drug, toxic as hell. But for me to recover that fast off it, i realised MDMA is the more toxic chemical. Not saying to do meth, It is a horrible drug. Just pointing out that even after an all nighter on meth, the comedown/recovery was a walk in the park compared to ecstasy.

If you really want to know about MDMA and the brain, i would advise you to read FirstBadComedowns posts. They are always long as hell, and he goes in depth with every detail. He knows a lot more info on the subject than i do.

In all fairness though, i have had some dirty pills in my rolling days. Which must have caused some nasty damage. But regardless , even when i had clean MDMA pills my mood would be off for a long time. I am a very self aware person, so i pay close attention to everything i am feeling.

So your reason is because you, one person amongst many many many many users, experienced a bad comedown. Well in that case, I've been taking MDMA for years, all tested at moderate dosages (often with redoses & combined with alcohol) and I've experienced absolutely nothing negative. Nothing at all. It's all been fine & dandy. In fact, I feel I've gained something out of it. Therefore, MDMA is definitely safe because I've been fine. I had a tiny bit of respect for your argument when you were incorporating science. That argument was anecdotal at best.

I've read FBC posts which appear fuelled by his paranoid, anxious state. I've read alot of MDMA papers which do not prove any of his hypotheses. Yes, they are just his hypotheses. A hypothesis is just that - a prediction - not a fact.

Thank you, someone logical here.
People see me as an ass hole on the ecstasy discussion forum because i bring the truth. They are all biased users who will not admit to any negatives with MD. It's all good , it's in human nature for people to defend the things they are doing.

I don't think you're an asshole at all - you're looking out for others which is a good thing. Then again, your arguments aren't exactly strong. I'm more than happy to admit that they're negatives associated with MDMA. High, repeated doses certainly appears to cause temporary, yet severe, serotonergic damage. Then again, most papers do report that rats usually return to baseline within a few weeks, even after some ridiculous dosing scheme of 5-10mg/kg every hour. So the damage is temporary and reversible.

To say you bring the truth is ignorant. Nobody knows the truth. If scientists knew the truth then we wouldn't even require further study would we? If anyone's biased, it's you. You had a bad experience with MDMA so suddenly it's an extremely dangerous drug, despite the numerous users who are fine. I smoked weed and had a really anxious, paranoid experience that put me off the drug completely. I didn't abuse it. I started smoking it occassionally and then one day just had a really bad experience. From then, I couldn't smoke weed without becoming an anxious wreck. You don't see me parading around the cannabis forums saying how it causes anxiety & paranoia because of my one-off rare experience. I realise that, for the majority, weed is a perfectly safe drug. For whatever reason, I just got unlucky. None of the research suggests that occassional weed would cause what I experienced. There is no strong evidence to suggest it, other than my one, anecdotal & biased experience.

 

[F1n1shed]

Jwills i am glad you brought up the cannabis situation because i have experienced at least 50 panic attacks on weed. A panic attack does not equal damage though.
This is one of the things that bothers me about MDMA. You will probably think what i am saying is not true right now but i have seen it enough times and have first hand experience. MDMA changed my cannabis highs, once i started messing with MDMA cannabis started giving me anxiety. I have seen at least 10 other threads on this forum where someone mentioned they never got a panic attack from weed until they started rolling.

My explanation for this is, MDMA leaves your brain in a high stress mode. Low serotonin and dopamine levels ,as well as damaged axons and all the other things leave your brain under high stress. You may not notice it while you are sober (i do), but when you smoke weed it brings everything to surface. I have always been a heavy stoner, and never had 1 anxiety attack. That is until i started rolling, coincidence? I think not, i think MDMA had to do with it as i have seen this happen to so many other people. It may sound like i am just blaming MDMA but i have a reason to believe they are correlated because all my friends are stoners to. And none of them got any panic attacks either, until after they started rolling.


I find it incredible that you have rolled that many times and never had anything negative happen the days after. You mean to tell me after a hard night of rolling at a club, you wake up feeling EXACTLY as you did the day before? Sounds a little off to be honest, but if you say so... salute to you. You have a brain that is unable to be damaged by MDMA.. I for one notice severe changes in mood the following days after a roll.

To each their own. One thing i will agree with you on is, in most cases the damage is reversible. Everyone has their own amount of time it takes to reach recovery though.

 

[angeleyes]

You both have such compelling arguments

I agree with Jwills about the bud, I smoked chronically for years and had a bad experience and then went cold turkey, it's for some people and not others and I know that it was due to my own fault not taking enough breaks for my brain to recover but I haven't touched it since.

I also feel dramatically different the next couple days but its usually tolerable, but I do feel it and I know why I'm feeling it.

So worth it hahahaha well usually.

 

[laugh]

all drugs give hints or drop bombs to tell you your taking too much. the difficult thing is noticing and more importantly listening to these indicators and then overcoming the addiction or will to continue taking these substances. i have noticed it becomes easier with age. the beauty of hindsight.

 

[jam uh weezy]

thanks for sharing the articles F1nished. I would love to see MDxx studied in more depth, especially the long lasting effects! (wouldn't we all.) Hopefully the work MAPS and others are doing will catapult this even further!!


Personally, I can vouch that MDMA has improved my overall emotional state of mind. Not in terms of making me more "happy", but allowing me to become more emotionally intelligent overall. And yes, it has shown me those brief periods of low and mental unpredictability that can be a bit unnerving. More importantly that the effects of the actual drug, it had shown me what my mind was truly capable of, and gave me a taste of what it's like to transform my psychology. I rarely do mdma nowadays, but I always use my experiences(with many mind altering substances) to ground myself and keep striving to create a better future for myself and the people around me.

But please, respect the power than these microscopic keys have on our mind. Abusing them is a 100% guaranteed way to ensure you hurt yourself and your mental state. Please use them responsibly, OP, and in turn by setting an example, help others to do the same

 

[angeleyes]

all drugs give hints or drop bombs to tell you your taking too much. the difficult thing is noticing and more importantly listening to these indicators and then overcoming the addiction or will to continue taking these substances. i have noticed it becomes easier with age. the beauty of hindsight.

Pure agreement in all of its hip-thrusting forms of this comment, ahhhhhhh this thread is just pure debate at some very fine levels, just tip top I love each response.

@Jam I agree it's all been worth it, I feel more that I've "lived life" in terms of general quality of enjoyment, absolutely losing where I am compare to 12 months ago, I can actually feel that my brain chemistry has changed and I definitely think it has been for the better.

 

[JWills20]

Jwills i am glad you brought up the cannabis situation because i have experienced at least 50 panic attacks on weed. A panic attack does not equal damage though.
This is one of the things that bothers me about MDMA. You will probably think what i am saying is not true right now but i have seen it enough times and have first hand experience. MDMA changed my cannabis highs, once i started messing with MDMA cannabis started giving me anxiety. I have seen at least 10 other threads on this forum where someone mentioned they never got a panic attack from weed until they started rolling.

My explanation for this is, MDMA leaves your brain in a high stress mode. Low serotonin and dopamine levels ,as well as damaged axons and all the other things leave your brain under high stress. You may not notice it while you are sober (i do), but when you smoke weed it brings everything to surface. I have always been a heavy stoner, and never had 1 anxiety attack. That is until i started rolling, coincidence? I think not, i think MDMA had to do with it as i have seen this happen to so many other people. It may sound like i am just blaming MDMA but i have a reason to believe they are correlated because all my friends are stoners to. And none of them got any panic attacks either, until after they started rolling.


I find it incredible that you have rolled that many times and never had anything negative happen the days after. You mean to tell me after a hard night of rolling at a club, you wake up feeling EXACTLY as you did the day before? Sounds a little off to be honest, but if you say so... salute to you. You have a brain that is unable to be damaged by MDMA.. I for one notice severe changes in mood the following days after a roll.

To each their own. One thing i will agree with you on is, in most cases the damage is reversible. Everyone has their own amount of time it takes to reach recovery though.

I have heard about MDMA altering the weed high, but I've no idea why this would happen. For me, I tried MDMA before weed so i've no idea what suddenly induced anxiety. It was literally my third or second time smoking weed and I just got anxious. It was probably the setting. My theory is that my weed anxiety is now all psychologically produced with weed as the stimulus bringing back those anxious feelings. This is because even one puff has me feeling uncomfortable, suggesting that it's not the weed itself, more my head reliving the bad experience.

I also have friends who tried weed first & then MDMA and still smoke weed now with no change to the high.

I don't think MDMA is as unforgiving as many on this forum make it out to be. Sure, I've experienced no notable negative effects which has usually been from responsible usage. Then again, I've gone out and got drunk and then taken random quantities of MDMA (my tested MDMA), one which must have been a big dose (200mg+), and still woke up and felt fine the next day. If anything, the alcohol hangover was blunted because I drunk water while on the MD haha. I know numerous people who overdo MDMA and they are still fine. I tell them that one day they might experience negative effects, but so far, they are fine. Those on this forum that experience negative effects are the minority, not the majority.