is homosexuality a choice?

[MazDan]

Here's what I think:

Seeing as homosexuals see themselves as "women", "girls" and feminine, they are obviously somewhat delusional. Since they have a penis and XY sex chromosomes they are obviously male and no one but themselves is being fooled by their statements and behaviour.
This delusional behaviour is nothing short of a psychological condition, much like the narcissist that has delusions of grandeur. Homosexuality like narcissism, is probably triggerred by a childhood experience or experiences. And no its no going to the cliche dodgey happenings at bath-time, like narcissism it could be triggered by almost anything, it depends on the individual. There is obviously a childhood trigger as people don't decide to be gay when they are 35 (they may choose to come out at this age but they were always gay).

Since when do homosexuals see themselves as "women" girls etc................ What planet do you live on?

I dont know any gay guys that feel this way.........well not to my knowledge anyways.........Im sure there are some but I am just as sure there are straight guys who feel that way to.

Your concept of a trigger may have some basis but I would like to see some studies done first and I suspect that would be very hard.

Your comment regrads decideing to be gay at age 35 etc is also well wide of the mark.

As i said earlier, Im 46 and just had my first gay experience sexually however I can probably trace it to a trigger........I got rather a surprise when i realised I really deeply loved my best mate about 6-7 years ago.........I still do.........it has never been sexual but im happy to admit that i love him more than i have ever loved anyone else in my life. It did get me wondering and willing to consider ideas and as such after much thinking and learning here at SLR and talking with gay friends here, i decided that logically there is nothing wrong with loving another guy and that really it doesnt even make you gay to be able to admit it..........I actually feel sorry for anyone who thinks they are not capable of loving there own sex as much as the other.

Now on to sex itself........different concept but similar story........... I wanted to try it and actually it was fun and very enjoyable...........and thats what i want out of sex. For heavens sake....... many many men fuck there women up the ass...........whats the difference between a mans ass and a womans........except of course societies silly values.

It was also fucking mad waking up with a human beings arms wrapped arround you...........having lived much of my life alone, that was just fucking priceless and better than any sex or anything else in the world.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who cant allow themselves to truly love someone of there own sex.




beamers, I think you need to modify some of your ideas..........seriously.

 

[ScattyD]

Since when do homosexuals see themselves as "women" girls etc................ What planet do you live on?

Mt thoughts exactly.

As i said earlier, Im 46

*shocked* dont know why but I pictured you in your 20's for some reason. You posts obviously radiat youth.

Now on to sex itself........different concept but similar story........... I wanted to try it and actually it was fun and very enjoyable...........and thats what i want out of sex. For heavens sake....... many many men fuck there women up the ass...........whats the difference between a mans ass and a womans........except of course societies silly values.

Same pointy I was trying to make... Not all "gay" sex is gay as such... some people like to try different things (like the beastialityy thread the other week)

It was also fucking mad waking up with a human beings arms wrapped arround you...........having lived much of my life alone, that was just fucking priceless and better than any sex or anything else in the world.

So So true, I went through a stage for about 6 months where all I wanted was someone to wake and have a hug with. No sex just that comforting hug. You cant beat it.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who cant allow themselves to truly love someone of there own sex.

I totaly agree and it is immensely anoying that you cant go out and hug a guy with out people thinking you are gay and frouning upon you. I love to give people masages when I'm out and boshed but the amount of coments and looks I get when giving another guy a massage is stupid.

 

[wesmdow]

heres what i wrote last night. its an intro to psych class so dont go all nuts cuz it isnt too "professional," also i whipped it together in about 3 hours whilst chatting here. i must stop doing that 8).

anyway i thank yall much for your input--personal experience is something thats difficult to research.

Is homosexuality a choice? The American Psyciatric Association (APA) says decidedly that it is not; that sexual orientation is defined early in life,

and that it is not corellated with the values a child is brought up with (APA. Anwers to Your Questions About Homosexuality. [online] april 3, 2007.

<http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>). The discrepency lies not within the scientific community, rather general populus, however. Homophobia, fueled

by religion and missinformation, still runs rampant throughout the United States. there are 2 sides to this issue, each with valid points, i personally am

inclined to believe that homosexuality, like most other personal attributes, is a culmination of genetics, environment, and the way a person was raised--i do

not believe one can choose to be homosexual, or vice versa.
Religious organizations are the most outspoken opponents of homosexuality. For the purposes of this paper christianity will be exemplified. Although

debatable, a strict interpretation of the Bible does, in fact, denounce homosexuality entirely. God is quoted many times forbidding sodomy and homosexuality

(Rapture Ready. FAQ. [online] April 3, 2007. <http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq11.html>) this interpretation of the bible leads followers to believe that

homosexuality is a choice--one made against the wishes of God--and therefore not only immoral, but a punishable offense(Rapture Ready. FAQ. [online] April 3,

2007. <http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq11.html>). This might explain why the rate of violent crimes against homosexuals is notably higher than that of the

straight population (APA. Anwers to Your Questions About Homosexuality. [online] april 3, 2007. <http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>).
Aside from being forbade by God to commit acts of homosexuality, other arguments exist against it as well. Human anatomy, while it does allow for

homosexual intercourse, is undeniably designed for male/female reproduction. Many of those who oppose homosexuality beleive this carries a moral connotation:

unnatural actions are perverse and morally wrong.
Other moral justifications for the condemnation of homosexual behavior consist of fallacies and misperceptions. It is widely believed that homosexual

activity necessarily leads to the transmission of STDs, most notably HIV/AIDs.(APA. Anwers to Your Questions About Homosexuality. [online] april 3, 2007.

<http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>). While this is flat-out untrue, it is understandable, i think, that people informed of this untruth do have

such a bias against those with homosexual inclinations.
One end of the spectrum, already discussed, is diametrically opposed to homosexuality--on the other end are those who, like myself, respect a persons

choice of lifestyle. i use the phrase "choice of lifestyle" here because thats what i believe homosexuality to be. According the APA, sexual orientation is

established early in a persons life, and "the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors."(APA. Anwers to Your

Questions About Homosexuality. [online] april 3, 2007. <http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>) According to the APA orientation has nothing to do with

choice.
It is important to note that sexual oreintation is not always parallel to a person's chosen lifestyle, however. One can be in denial of ones sexual

orientation and supress his or her homosexual urges (and many people have and do) for an entire lifetime, due to societal, familial, and/or religious

pressure (APA. Anwers to Your Questions About Homosexuality. [online] april 3, 2007. <http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>). The 'choice,' of

homosexuality, in my opinion, lies here--in deciding whether or not (or how) to act on ones urges. A person might make the choice to suppress their sexual

orientation for any number of reasons. Socialization teaches us as youths that its "wrong" to be gay, overcoming this is particularly challenging to some

because of the fear of social rejection/ridicule.
Because of this tendency of society to shun gays, and in combination with the religious opposition homosexuals face "coming out of the closet," or

admitting ones homosexuality to oneself, close friends, and family (if not the entire world) as somewhat of an important right of passage (APA. Anwers to

Your Questions About Homosexuality. [online] April 3, 2007. <http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html>). The difficulties associated with this choice to

"come out" are obvious: fear of rejection by friends and family, fear of religious damnation, which is why it takes many homosexuals a lifetime to work up

the courage to do so.
In summation, homosexuals have always existed. Society as a whole is slowly becoming more accepting of homosexuality as a legitimate form of

sexuality, but much progress has yet to be made (High Beam Encyclopedia,[online] April 3, 2007. <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-gayright.html>). The

persecution still faced by gays today might explain why many homosexuals decide keep their sexuality a secret, although i do not think that anyone can change

their natural sexual orientation. In my opinion, homosexuality is not a choice.

EDIT: i have no idea whats with the spacing or why it did that... but you get the idea.

 

[stereobot]

I just wanted to add to the thread:

You DO know gay people in real life, just no one that has came out to you.

 

[wesmdow]

truly, and i definitely dont feel comfortable asking those people about what its like to be gay!

 

[threelibras99]

Just out of curiosity......

Has it been proven scientifically that sexuality is part of our genes?


As for the OP, I think that our sexuality is our own personal choice....I think we can't control who we are attracted to. I like a lot of what MazDan had to say about it.

 

[AuraithX]

Just out of curiosity......

Has it been proven scientifically that sexuality is part of our genes?

It's been proven that Homosexuals are genetically different, how they got that way is unknown as it cant be evolutionary as they can't reproduce. Some people believe that having a female twin is more likely to make you gay (exposure to female hormones when you're being made), some believe its a parasite. All the popular theorys are listed in the wikipedia article I posted.

 

[QuestionEverything]

Also as regards to the choice thing I read about a very interesting study in newscientist about weather homosexuality is nature or nurture. They found that the more older sisters a boy has the higher the chances of them being gay are which indicates an influence from the mothers hormones during pregnancy. They canceled out the possibility that just growing up with girls could make you gay by taking into account boys that grew up with step sisters from a different mother.

Unfortunately I don't have a link but I think that this is pretty convincing evidence that sexuality is at least part nature.

Are you sure the study was on growing up with sisters, or was it brothers? A study came out not too long ago about the number of older brothers a male has influencing his chances of being homosexual. I posted it here in SLR when i came across it. (link below) I'd be interested if there was a study also linking sisters to homosexuality. The study basically implied some sort of genetic change that takes place after giving birth to previous male infants.

In all honesty I don't give these kinds of studies too much thought. I find them interesting and thought provoking, but far from definitive.

Wesmdow, there was some discussion in there you might be interested in reading, if not for your paper, perhaps for your own curiosity.


Article: men with older brothers are more likely to be gay

 

[Amebix]

As far as it being genetic, this doesn't make too much sense since evolution would have selected homosexual genes out (homosexuals don't have kids, so how are these gay genes being passed on?). If you are unable or unwilling to breed then you are useless in the eyes of evolution.
There may be a small percentage of people that have errors during chromosome recombination where they may end up with 2 X chromosomes and a y (XXY), or a shortened y chromosome. This would be an incredibly small number of people and cannot explain homosexuality.
Cases of a gay queen having a straight hetero genetically identical twins disprove the gay gene myth.

Here's what I think:

Seeing as homosexuals see themselves as "women", "girls" and feminine, they are obviously somewhat delusional. Since they have a penis and XY sex chromosomes they are obviously male and no one but themselves is being fooled by their statements and behaviour.
This delusional behaviour is nothing short of a psychological condition, much like the narcissist that has delusions of grandeur. Homosexuality like narcissism, is probably triggerred by a childhood experience or experiences. And no its no going to the cliche dodgey happenings at bath-time, like narcissism it could be triggered by almost anything, it depends on the individual. There is obviously a childhood trigger as people don't decide to be gay when they are 35 (they may choose to come out at this age but they were always gay).

Hahah, thanks, that was funny.

....But in all seriousness, id imagine the majority of homosexuals dont see themselves as women or girls (i believe the term for that is transgendered). And comparing homosexuality to narcissism is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Cyc]

Right, but like apples and oranges, I find both homosexuals and narcissists kind of fruity

 

[fastandbulbous]

It's a choice in the sense that at some point in your development in the wonb, exposure to certain hormones can activate certain developmental structures in the Brain more than others. This on it's own isn't enough - it also requires certain developmental cues in combination with the previously mentioned changes.

From what I've read, your orientation is determined by aprox age 2 & at that point you have problems deciding between tour teddy bear or stuffed giraffe; hardly a time you can conciously choose to be straight or gay

 

[kittyinthedark]

the act of homosexuality is absolutely a choice.

now the urges and feelings may not be.

Yes, and the ACT of heterosexuality is a choice as well.

So the point is entirely moot!


Does anyone actually read anything I type? I fail to see how the discussion got much past the first page (or indeed how this discussion seems to come up so often).

Ask any straight male:
me: Do you think chicks are hot?
him: Yeah.
me: Do they make you horny?
him: Hell yeah!
me: Why?
him: Well, i dunno, they just do!

Rinse lather repeat with gay male.
me: Why do guys make you horny?
him: I dunno, they just do!


Can someone please explain to me where anyone is making *any* choice besides whether or not to have sex in the first place, regardless of who it's with?

 

[augustaB]

As far as it being genetic, this doesn't make too much sense since evolution would have selected homosexual genes out (homosexuals don't have kids, so how are these gay genes being passed on?). If you are unable or unwilling to breed then you are useless in the eyes of evolution.
There may be a small percentage of people that have errors during chromosome recombination where they may end up with 2 X chromosomes and a y (XXY), or a shortened y chromosome. This would be an incredibly small number of people and cannot explain homosexuality.
Cases of a gay queen having a straight hetero genetically identical twins disprove the gay gene myth.

Here's what I think:

Seeing as homosexuals see themselves as "women", "girls" and feminine, they are obviously somewhat delusional. Since they have a penis and XY sex chromosomes they are obviously male and no one but themselves is being fooled by their statements and behaviour.
This delusional behaviour is nothing short of a psychological condition, much like the narcissist that has delusions of grandeur. Homosexuality like narcissism, is probably triggerred by a childhood experience or experiences. And no its no going to the cliche dodgey happenings at bath-time, like narcissism it could be triggered by almost anything, it depends on the individual. There is obviously a childhood trigger as people don't decide to be gay when they are 35 (they may choose to come out at this age but they were always gay).

The second part of this is patent bunk and displays a lack of familiarity with gay life. Gays do not regard themselves as women. Some gays may be feminized or display what to some appears to be a feminine interest in relationships, art, nice food, etc. but in general feminine does not sell well other gays.

As for the genetic argument consisting of "it can't be a gene". This is just too simplistic. Hereditary doesn't work like that. Nobody knows why people are gay. In all probability there are a number of unrelated factors at work.
As for the nature nurture aspect I would say that if you live in a gay tolerant culture then far more latent gays are going to express themselves as gay than in a gay phobic culture. Even so the latent gays will be there and unhappy (even if they don't know why).

There also seems to be a confusion between hereditary and congenital.
A hereditary thing is something you inherit from the gene pool available to. Congenital is something you are born with. Thus if you are exposed or otherwise to certain triggers in the womb (which may be the underlying cause of transsexuality) you will be born with this congenital condition.

It has indeed been reported that younger brothers are more likely to be gay than their siblings. Is this because they perhaps have been freer to express their gayness? Who knows?

Elsewhere in this thread there's been talk of experimentation and of people going gay/straight. I think that this is evidence of human bisexuality. Kinsey found that most people fell somewhere in the middle of a scale from extreme heterosexuality to extreme homosexuality. He reported that one in 4 men had at least one same sex experience in their lives and that was back in the repressive 40s.

IMHO none of the foregoing is really conclusive. What I know is that I didn't ask to be the way I am. It is not as if I made a conscious choice. I do know that I resisted expressing my gay/bi sexuality for a long time and that now I do I am happier.

What I object to is that policy is implemented by bigots who base their views on narrow readings of religious texts and idealized images of what constitutes sexuality and sexual roles. Arguments formulated in terms of gay persons making deliberate choices about their sexuality are inherently biassed and skew any reading of the data available to us.

A gay person is no less a person than any other person.





Sorry for the rant

 

[augustaB]

Sorry Kitty what is "the Act of homosexuality"?

 

[supertrav77]

Is homosexual orientation a choice? Probably not. I would say "no" but I'm not gay so I can only guess.
As for wether it's genetic or environmental, I think it's probably a combination of both.
However, I would lean more heavily toward environmental for two reasons. One: because homosexuality is more prevalent among middle and upper classes than the lower class. And it's been like that for centuries. Secondly, most (but not all) of the gay men I have ever known have had some kind of sexual abuse when they were younger.

 

[kittyinthedark]

Sorry Kitty what is "the Act of homosexuality"?

Fucking someone of the same sex. An act of heterosexuality would be fucking someone of the opposite sex. If you have two hermaphrodites fucking each other, I have no idea what you call that, but I want to watch.

You can be the gayest person on the face of the earth but still choose to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. You can be the straightest person on the fact of the earth but still choose to have sex with someone of the same sex. Really what the whole argument is about is urge versus action.

 

[Vandalaay]

Yes, and the ACT of heterosexuality is a choice as well.

So the point is entirely moot!


Does anyone actually read anything I type? I fail to see how the discussion got much past the first page (or indeed how this discussion seems to come up so often)

lol you rock girl!

(meow)

 

[ScattyD]

Yes, and the ACT of heterosexuality is a choice as well.

So the point is entirely moot!

He He ... made me laugh

 

[augustaB]

Fucking someone of the same sex. An act of heterosexuality would be fucking someone of the opposite sex. If you have two hermaphrodites fucking each other, I have no idea what you call that, but I want to watch.

You can be the gayest person on the face of the earth but still choose to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. You can be the straightest person on the fact of the earth but still choose to have sex with someone of the same sex. Really what the whole argument is about is urge versus action.

Just a thought: Sorry, so much homosexual activity does not include fucking, and anyway how does this include lesbians?

The second part though is problematic. Although perhaps a majority of self-identifying gay men will say that they have tried sex with women at one time or other there are still many who find it impossible to become aroused by the opposite sex and are thus unable to have penetrative sex.

For the lesbian the situation might be different although I should imagine that being penetrated by a man when you are absolutely unaroused could be pretty painful (even if lube was used).

To return to the choice argument. Upon reflection the proponents of choice must believe that choice is possible. Does this mean that they have made a choice? If so what did they choose between? If they have indeed chosen for heterosexuality is this not an admission that the alternative option was available to them? Or to spell it out: is this not an admission that they are at least bisexual?

 

[augustaB]

Is homosexual orientation a choice? Probably not. I would say "no" but I'm not gay so I can only guess.
As for wether it's genetic or environmental, I think it's probably a combination of both.
However, I would lean more heavily toward environmental for two reasons. One: because homosexuality is more prevalent among middle and upper classes than the lower class. And it's been like that for centuries. Secondly, most (but not all) of the gay men I have ever known have had some kind of sexual abuse when they were younger.

Kinsey indeed found that blue collars were less well represented in his homosexual population.
This is a finding that has been confirmed in SOME later studies.
See for an overview: http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/bib-homoprev.html
The conclusion that this means that environment creates homos is, however, in my view not sound.
Other factors are probably at work, including more social opprobrium, less access to social support networks, lower levels of education and the consequent lower levels of self-realization, fewer suitable role models, diminished career prospects, etc.
Being gay and lower class can mean that your horizons are dramatically restricted.

The abuse hypothesis has theoretical justification in Freud's arrested development theory of homosexuality. But is it true? At present the evidence seems to be anecdotal and not really supported by empirical data.

Finally anybody really interested in this topic might like to read the following
http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_1997/yax-061.htm

The author is Singaporean (straits) chinese and gay. He is a widely respected gay activist.