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is homosexuality a choice?

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augustaB said:
Just a thought: Sorry, so much homosexual activity does not include fucking, and anyway how does this include lesbians? :\

Gay men have anal sex with each other. Lesbians sure as hell don't use a real penis for sex. Both are not "sex" in it's standard definition; a penis is not penetrating a vagina here. But it sure as hell *is* fucking, and I'm not quite sure what you're asking there..

To return to the choice argument. Upon reflection the proponents of choice must believe that choice is possible. Does this mean that they have made a choice? If so what did they choose between? If they have indeed chosen for heterosexuality is this not an admission that the alternative option was available to them? Or to spell it out: is this not an admission that they are at least bisexual?

You might argue that people chose to be gay/straight after experimenting with members of the opposite and same sex. That is who they choose to show to the world. But is their preference a choice? For example, a man can be attached to a beautiful and give an outwardly appearance of an ideal couple, for fear of ostracising. He might still feel emotionally/sexually attracted to men only. Women just don't get him, they just don't, and how is that a choice?
 
no. i can see where somebody who'd curious might call themselves gay and find out later its not their thing but imo it's inborn. There was a study on my msn home page the other day about animals with homosexual tendencies. I already agreed that it was inborn but this convinced me further.
 
rumpled answered for me. Thank you :)


I use the term "fucking" to encompass pretty much any sexual behavior. Intercourse is a penis going in a vagina. Fucking is a lot more fun. :D

You can choose to fuck anyone (or anything...). You can't choose what you find attractive.
 
^^^ exactly.

you can't choose your urges, only how you act.

a person with the urge to murder that doesn't, isn't a murder.

the person with the urge to help others that doesn't isn't a helper.

i think thats what separates us from the animals, our ability to think beyond our predisposed dispositions.
 
wesmdow said:
i searched the forum for this and didnt find anything?!8o

anyway... im writing a paper for psychology about it. i dont know any gay people in real life, so i ask you here: is it a choice you made, or were you born that way?

Who cares? ffs im sick of people claiming to straight or gay or whatever. Freud said we were all bi didn't he? Everyone has the ability to go both ways so yeah.... what ever turns you on more is ok though.... now homosexuality is a choice just as heterosexuality is, choose what turns you on more i guess.
 
I'm bi and even I don't agree with the "everyone is bi" theory. I don't care if people think I'm gay but I also use queer as a label.

It's not that I'm deeply offended by it but I have gay friends who have absolutely ZERO desire to be with a woman, they're not sexually attracted to women at all, and who go into panic attacks when women hit on them.

I think that if everyone were bi or had same gender leanings, bisexuality wouldn't be such a big deal/controversial and you'd have a lot more people open about it and there wouldn't be such rampant homophobia in most societies/cultures.

I don't see being gay as a choice since I've met guys who are close to 50 who finally came out at 45. Sometimes after living a life where they were trying to be heterosexual with a wife and kids, or even a life where they were celibate for a decade or more.
 
Worthless question if you ask me. For those pineing away for it to be genetic, they lack the balls for standing up for the right to fuck whomever they choose (and is capable of and is consenting).

For those who say it's a choice , they typically are looking for a reason to condemn the behaviour of someone on arbitrary moral grounds.

Worthless question. For those looking for an "out" for responsability for their actions, grow some nuts. For those looking to condemn others, quit being pricks.
 
I would widen the issue even further. I don't think sexuality itself is a choice at all! It's one of those things EVERYONE has to put up with, for better or worse. This could be fucking a sofa, a caribou, or a goddamn seven-wombed African Queen from Jupiter! Sexuality exists no matter what, in any form. Take it or take it!
 
this is fuckin crazy if you could choose to be gay there would be so many more fags because girls are crazy and there would be so many less fags because theres so many gay bashers. this question is insane and naive and very pertinant because i wanna know too. am i gay? can i choose to be if im not? id rather be bi. i think im half bi because i fucked a guy and i liked it but hes the only dude ive ever thought about that way.
 
kittyinthedark said:
Given that homosexuals are pretty heavily slandered, mocked, and otherwise derided by the general public, I can't see why anyone would choose to be gay. Would you choose to be a minority of any kind living in a society that openly dislikes (even hates, even assaults and kills) that minority? I certainly wouldn't....
I'm sorry but this argument is retarded in my opinion.
Neo-Nazis are hated by the general public in my country and communists are hated in USA yet we see people not having a problem with identifying themselves as belonging to one of these groups.

By your logic these people were born this way?

There is also a lot of pros of being a gay male in todays modern society, in my opinion these are negative long-term as they build prejudices.
For example the fab five show, i feel sorry for the gays that don't give a shit about fashion.
 
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The preference is NOT a choice. Indeed, moreand more evidence points to a biological cause. However, acting on your preference IS a choice. In my culture [Jewish] homosexuality [both genders] is an offence punishable by death. You are buried up to your neck in manure, lit on fire, and as your head burns your community throws large rocks at yuor burning head until you die your gruesome death...Yum!

Here in Israel though, we have a liberal democracy. We are a very progressive nation on social issues and homosexuals are free to serve in the military [and many servewith distinction] as well as live theri chosen life. Of course there some neighbourhoods where they would certainly be killed if they walked and expressed their choice openly but then so would a hetrosexual couple just kissing so...

I think, live and let live as the saying goes. I was raised traditionally so it does make me uncomfortable to see it openly expressed BUT, everyone has a right to love. If they have no choice in their orientation, how can you fault them for trying to love? I would say, do your thing, just not around me [i know it sounds narrow but we are prisoners of our culture to some degree].
 
Hashshashin said:
I'm sorry but this argument is retarded in my opinion.
Neo-Nazis are hated by the general public in my country and communists are hated in USA yet we see people not having a problem with identifying themselves as belonging to one of these groups.

By your logic these people were born this way?

There is also a lot of pros of being a gay male in todays modern society, in my opinion these are negative long-term as they build prejudices.
For example the fab five show, i feel sorry for the gays that don't give a shit about fashion.
dude, read the rest of my posts on the subject. I offered plenty of clarification to others about why my logic holds true for homosexuals, neo-nazis, and any other group. But in case you're too lazy - it's because the positives outweigh the negatives for them. Neo-nazis feel so strongly that the world would be better off without jews or blacks or whoever, that they would rather maintain their worldview than change it. (But really, the argument doesn't technicallyl apply to matters of opinion in the first place, so it's a non-point. Your sexuality is not an opinion.)

FFS people, read the whole damn thread, or at least the whole argument!
 
i don't see the argument exactly, what is it?

is it a choice to have sex with the same sex?

yes.

is it a choice to want to have sex with the same sex?

no.

is there something i'm missing?

is it a choice to have sex with a concentual 12 year old too?

yes it is.

is that wrong.

you have to decide that.





kitty.

is it a choice to want to murder? is it a choice to want to rape? is it a choice to want to do anything you want to do?

can you be born into certain traits and be accepted by society and others?

no, you will be judged by humans. i'm sure you can handle that

personally i think you can feel what is right. like a compass. you know when you don't feel right.

at least i do. and i hope i will change to act more on that feeling
 
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People don't choose what they're sexually attracted to. People choose how they identify their sexuality with the world.
 
I have purposely avoided posting in this thread only because the question of whether someone is born gay or not, to my mind, is always a loaded one. I dislike it when someone asks me that question as if a) i have the authority to speak on behalf of everyone else who just so happens to identify as gay and (b) as if homosexuality is so rigid that i even know if i myself was 'born' gay.

Are people born gay? Who knows. More importantly, however, who the fuck cares! To say things like " gay people don't choose who they are attracted to" implies that gay people have to justify the fact that they like cock/love men on the basis of some innate desire, thereby it being 'natural' (read: acceptable). By contrast, such a heavy reliance on the naturalness of homosexuality implies the act is so inherently disgusting that no one could never choose to love/fuck a person of the same sex :\

I know a lot of people don't mean it to sound offensive, but it plain is. As offensive as when I hear other gay people justifying their 'lifestyle' in such a way. And not because i am specifically gay, but because i find biologically deterministic arguments moronic, overly-simplistic and problematic for people who choose not to define their sexuality.

Who knows if people are gay. More importantly, the impetus should be placed on not caring if people are born gay. I mean, really, why does it matter whether someone is born with lots of poofiness in their bones, or if they just so happen, at the age of 50, to decide that they want a cut of smelly man sex. By posing the question of whether someone is born gay or not, implies there is something to be understood in the first place.

NEWSFLASH: there isn't.

Some people like men; by choice, by biology, by the fact that they smoked too much meth last weekend. Who knows? For far too long, the GLBT liberation movement couched homosexuality in the context of 'not being able to help it.' I understand why that argument was necessary back in the highly prudish culture of middle-America, circa later half of last-century. However, i think it is important that we move on from this justification of not being able to help loving men.

I like telling people specifically that i can help it. But, more importantly, that i am not fucking going to 'help it' because there is no reason why i should have to :D

I say this to people and they insist that they don't mean anything by posing the question. I understand this. However, i cannot help but feel that even if they themselves don't mean to offend, the fact that the question is still being asked is offensive. Primarily because it is indicative of the deep-seated aversion that Western society has to all forms of deviant sexuality (and by contrast the superiority of 'normal' heterosexuality).

Yes yes, i know this may sound like an angry wankfest. But talking so definitively about something as fluid as our sexual desires/preferences is stoopid.

IMHO,of course ;)
 
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I understand where you are coming from CS but I sort of look at asking the question a different way.

I think its a reasonable question and if someone is asking, its because they want to try to understand.

I think thats a good thing..........I think its good for people to ask questions.

Having questions answered helps provide a better understanding.

Understanding is what is going to help make it a silly question in the future.

A future that may well see a simple acceptance.


Not only that but by asking questions people help to get a better understanding of themselves. And funnily enough, those answering have that opportunity as well.


I dont have all the answers to the questions, I can only relate my own personal experiences, and hope to learn from others and allow there ideas to permeate mine.

I certainly do not see anything offensive in the question whatsoever, but then again I dont see anything offensive about who I choose to love or have sexual entertainment with. I am totally comfortable with it and anyone who isnt.........well that is there problem, not mine.......
 
Can i ask, MazDan, have you heard of a women called Gayle Rubin? She is a queer theorist who has contributed a lot to 'binary opposition' theory. She is the shit.

Anyway, in terms of sexuality, her argument is that like all constructs, one thing is defined by what it is not. Further, that these binaries each have their own moral connotations; one side being good, moral, healthy, natural and other being its diametric opposite; negative, immoral, unhealthy, and unnatural. Further, when we identify with one of these constructs (which almost all of us inevitably do), we only know ourselves by what we are not.

Hence, why I find the fact that people have to ask the question in the first place to be offensive. What is there to understood? Gayness has been constructed to be something different, something to be understood, something that needs to be understood. What rubbish!

I am not saying that people intend offense by asking the question. I am saying the fact that homosexuality has been constructed as something to be understood in the first place is the offensive part.

And really, i think gay people need to move on from wanting to be understood, by needing to be understood by wider society (ie validated). It is never going to be understood, simply because a lot of gay people, in my experience confuse needing to be understood with needing to be accepted. Not necessarily one and the same, in my experience.

And tolerance is nothing but the ultimate form of arrogance :\
 
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I think everyone has full bisexual potential and that we choose whether to be gay or not. I think someone who is straight (like) could choose to be gay if they wanted to to, the point being that they do not want to. Similarly someone who is gay could choose to be straight if that was what they wanted. I suppose cultural conditioning is what makes most of us pretty much straight.

Why is that some people do not have this cultural conditioning and have different wants/needs? I wonder. Whether homosexuality is genetic or not, I do not know. Nor do I care. Suggesting it is genetic is suggesting that perhaps some people have a genetic defect, and that is treading dangerous territory. Who makes the norms in terms genetic and/or in terms cultural? And aren't these the same norms? We use genetics to explain everything about ourselves these days... our behaviour, our character, our health, out sexual orientation.... I am not entirely ocmfortable with that. Interferes too much with my notion of something approximating Free Will.

And I agree with MR Candyslut that tolerance is just arrogance. Acceptance is what society needs for behaviour that deviates from social norms but which does not actually harm people. This includes sexual preferences and drug taking and the like... to each their own. And since people do evolve over time, an unexpected gay experience such as MazDan's is hardly surprising. I might have one one day, who knows? And some of my gay friends might have a straight experience.... this may or may not alter their sexual orientation - depending on how satisfying the experience was.
 
Im sorry mate, Im a little bit lost by all that.

I cant see what the problem is in people asking questions to satisfy there curiosity?

Isnt understanding a step towards acceptance?

Isnt it hard to accept something if you dont understand it? I certainly did and its why I did so much talking and reading, to try to understand me, and in doing so come to totally accept me.

I dont think its right to simply accept, without understanding. Was it right for humans to just accept the world was flat? No, but with understanding we now accept that its round.

I have learnt a fair bit from this thread..........for example, if someone asks me if I or "gay or bi" persons in general are born that way, then I would now answer...........that its a difficult question to answer and that some may well be while others may not, but that in the end it doesnt really matter because we are all human beings.

That may not be the definitive answer the person was looking for but it seems to me that there isnt one and anyways it doesnt really matter............ and I would like that opportunity to get the point across.

I dont quite understand why you or anyone would be offended by someone asking a question.

OK so I read through your answer for the fourth time and maybe Im starting to get it............but by your reckoning it is also offensive when I talk to my mates about them being solely into women..........you see, I dont get that, so I ask them questions about it...........why? because i want to understand..........I find it interesting.

Seriously, I really do ask them stuff like that.


Please dont think Im trying to be argumentative, because Im not........Im seriously interested in trying to understand where your coming from.

Umm, if you prefer i just drop it then its ok mate.
 
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