Is "Acid" on course to have the same purity issues as "Ecstasy"?

[RainbowWarrior]

QFT, I know this from experience.

Hi soli

you're from the NL right? i heard that you can have anything tested in any pharmacy in holland, is that right?

in spain there is energy control, in switzerland there is the DIZ, how do things work in the netherlands?

sending some good vibes your way!

they can't take away your smile if you don't let them keep fighting the good fight!

 

[Disraeli_Beers]

Unfortunately, yes LSD purity and even chances of people selling real LSD has gone to shit. I happen to live in a relatively awesome place to obtain LSD but even here with the rise of RC's people can't be sure...

Some people have alluded to it, and there are some sure fire ways to obtain LSD but I digress... Stock up while ya can! All the best cid I've had lately has been from Canada but I don't know it's origin.

 

[feedmesauce]

What do you base your certainty on, exactly? As of 2005, Erowid had this to say about samples of what was sold as LSD in Spain:


Link

That same article suggests similar findings with Swiss samples. Despite the wide availability of DOX and 5-MeO-aMT at the time these substances didn't show up in any of the collected evidence. Why, if so much of what is sold as LSD is not LSD, would dealers have NOT been substituting these chemicals for LSD during this time period versus now?

It does seem to be true that LSD availability has waned recently. According to a survey conducted by Erowid:

Link

One study from Spain does not prove shit, I have seen that study before, and it has no relevance to the world wide market. In the USA LSD is a seriously rare chemical. Connections from past years have faded away, and most people who have "acid" connects are from people who they meet at festivals. This is my opinion on the whole deal; The connections for real true LSD and other drugs are seriously different. You get your coke, weed, or any highly profitable drugs from people looking to make money, and are often criminals. This includes the people selling fake LSD. 99% of dealers don't give a fuck what they are really giving their customers. It is easier and incredibly more profitable to be getting NBOME chemicals and laying it onto blotter. Most of the people making real LSD are making it for a higher purpose. I don't know if your from the USA but you would see exactly what I'm talking about. The mentality of most drug users, and even psychonauts are the reason for this. Many people who I would consider experienced in psychedelics could give a shit less if they are taking LSD or a random chemical, as long as they "trip balls". I'm not saying there isn't real LSD as there definitely is, but if your buying LSD from your coke dealer I can guarentee its fake. LSD has no chance of making a comeback, it's the fakest drug out there, it's very sad but it will be completley dead before we know it.

 

[psood0nym]

One study from Spain does not prove shit, I have seen that study before, and it has no relevance to the world wide market. In the USA LSD is a seriously rare chemical. Connections from past years have faded away, and most people who have "acid" connects are from people who they meet at festivals. This is my opinion on the whole deal; The connections for real true LSD and other drugs are seriously different. You get your coke, weed, or any highly profitable drugs from people looking to make money, and are often criminals. This includes the people selling fake LSD. 99% of dealers don't give a fuck what they are really giving their customers. It is easier and incredibly more profitable to be getting NBOME chemicals and laying it onto blotter. Most of the people making real LSD are making it for a higher purpose. I don't know if your from the USA but you would see exactly what I'm talking about. The mentality of most drug users, and even psychonauts are the reason for this. Many people who I would consider experienced in psychedelics could give a shit less if they are taking LSD or a random chemical, as long as they "trip balls". I'm not saying there isn't real LSD as there definitely is, but if your buying LSD from your coke dealer I can guarentee its fake. LSD has no chance of making a comeback, it's the fakest drug out there, it's very sad but it will be completley dead before we know it.

Yeah, you didn't even bother to read the links I provided before posting your opinion, did you? If you did, you might have come across this little bit:

The data we have reviewed so far indicates that the vast majority of substances sold as LSD are, in fact, LSD, with no other psychoactive chemicals or adulterating substances. Out of the 134 blotters analyzed by the DEA between 1976 and 1986, only one contained DOB instead of acid. Similarly, out of the 2,189 samples analyzed by the INT between 1997 and 2003, only one did not contain LSD

Again, 5-MeO-aMT and the DOXs existed back in the early 2000s, and they were cheap, so why weren't dealers pawning them off as LSD then? It would not surprise me if newer evidence from the Microgram journal did indicate more "fake" LSD now than back then simply because of the publics increased awareness of research chemicals, but given the extremely small proportion of "fake" but active blotter sold as LSD that was confiscated across multiple countries during the early 2000s when 5-MeO-aMT and DOXs existed for deceptive dealers who wanted to use them as substitutes, I cannot see the emergence of NBOMes in addition to these previous potential substitutes only now resulting in (as you insist) the majority of what is sold as LSD suddenly coming to be some other chemical.

I can see, however, how a lot of people who either can't find LSD (as I have presented evidence that it is hard to find) or were sold LSD so weak it didn't do anything (as there's evidence that what does exist is VERY low dose) might seek to palliate their bitterness by telling the internet that everything's bunk. Misery loves company.

And, again, if you think it might be an NBOMe rather than LSD, then simply swallow it and tell everybody who uses your dealer the results.

 

[Folley]

Again, 5-MeO-aMT and the DOXs existed back in the early 2000s, and they were cheap, so why weren't dealers pawning them off as LSD then?

I think the answer to that is pretty simple, no one knew about them! But now with the surge of online black markets and thousands of RC dealers on the web, ordering some NBOMe blotter is a simple task compared to trying to source LSD that is likely 5 times the price..

Anyone that wants to get their hands on these nasty chemicals and sell them as whatever they want has more access than ever before.




Honestly though, I don't see how ANYONE could get away with selling 25i as LSD... it was NOTHING like a trip to me, in fact it was more similar to ecstasy than any piperazine/RC combo pill I've ever taken

Don't think I'll really ever be fucking with NBOMe again

 

[psood0nym]

^My friends and I knew about some of them, and that we could get them online, around 2001. None of us were dealers and none of us were hardcore druggies -- the knowledge was there for anyone who inquired. We were just kids in a moderately sized city who liked psychedelics and talked about it. Hell, at that point the potency didn't matter much and we could've put a full dose of 2C-T-7 in a sugar cube and sold it as LSD if we wanted to, but we didn't because that's a shitty thing to do. The point is people knew.

 

[thatdreamer123]

I understand that knowing people solves this problem entirely, as with anything. But that wasn't what I was asking, I meant this more in regards for the general public who might not be as informed/care as much as some of us might. In the same way people buy pressed pills at festivals and have a shit time, whereas someone experienced would avoid that scenario entirely.

Yeah, NBOMe can be enjoyable for some people, it it seems pretty damn iffy. From all my buddies who have had 25C, probably about 1/3 of us got the super shitty brain-fried crackhead comedown. I cannot describe a worse feeling. Another friend of mine began sweating profusely, while he's a big guy, it was alarming and i've never seen someone sweat that much outside of sports (I was sober so I wasn't hallucinating and thinking so), then he got freezing cold for a while, etc. just was very unsettling. And I just feel like these sort of RC's have so much baggage, you can post on here as much as you want saying "well, I liked it", but that's besides the point. We're talking about the general public consuming this, and the fact that some people enjoy it, while others don't, while others get sick/OD makes it much more nefarious IMO than if all of it's effects were negative blc nobody would touch it at that point. Too many variables with this.

 

[Incunabula]

One study from Spain does not prove shit, I have seen that study before, and it has no relevance to the world wide market. In the USA LSD is a seriously rare chemical. Connections from past years have faded away, and most people who have "acid" connects are from people who they meet at festivals. This is my opinion on the whole deal; The connections for real true LSD and other drugs are seriously different. You get your coke, weed, or any highly profitable drugs from people looking to make money, and are often criminals. This includes the people selling fake LSD. 99% of dealers don't give a fuck what they are really giving their customers. It is easier and incredibly more profitable to be getting NBOME chemicals and laying it onto blotter. Most of the people making real LSD are making it for a higher purpose. I don't know if your from the USA but you would see exactly what I'm talking about. The mentality of most drug users, and even psychonauts are the reason for this. Many people who I would consider experienced in psychedelics could give a shit less if they are taking LSD or a random chemical, as long as they "trip balls". I'm not saying there isn't real LSD as there definitely is, but if your buying LSD from your coke dealer I can guarentee its fake. LSD has no chance of making a comeback, it's the fakest drug out there, it's very sad but it will be completley dead before we know it.

lol, how can you say that?

As I've already said, if you can get LSD depends on were you live, and who you know. It might feel totally impossible to source, but believe me, there's plenty of LSD being produced. And what you don't seem to understand, that while a few people might not like it, it still is the best psychedelic in many ways. The most potent, the most forgiving, the most physically safe etc For me it's also the one with the least side-effects, But nothing's been made yet that can substitute.

Maybe people trying to pass of RC's as LSD have become more prevalent, but seriously, there's nothing out there that will fool people who've tried real acid before, except LSD analogs (but's that's a different, and controversial, story for another thread). And just because some kids try to sell RC's as LSD doesn't have any effect what so ever on the LSD labs and their normal channels of distribution. Your just moving in the wrong circles, dude.

5-meo-amt? it's NOTHING like LSD, my freind.

NBOMe's? Not orally active, and markedly different than LSD in effects. 25i is much more speedy, much more shallow mentally, and quite different visuals and colors. So many people take LSD sublingually you'll say, well, just taking a single sip of a beer or something is going to greatly reduce, or totally ruin, the absorption of the NBOMe.

DO-x, very bitter taste, very long come up, much longer duration. Much more physically taxing. I think DOC is the only DO-x that could fool a newb is purportedly DOC. I haven't tried DOC, but I'm sure it won't fool many.

I can tell you that I once many years ago bought some green blotters with DOM (I found that out a few years later) And they were sold as synthetic mescaline, not LSD. And it's clear why, it's because DOM mostly resembles mescaline!

Bromo-dragonfly? it's not going to fool anybody.

Please, if you know so much about this topic, tell me about which psychedelics have such a lenient dose/response curve that you can safely take a drop on your tongue? That's right, only LSD.

 

[bongerman]

Ehhh honestly I think most people who think LSD is common isn't in America lol from years of being around the game yes LSD is around and often but at the sane time there's wayyy more fake shit. If you go to a festival in America a nd just buy "tabs" there mostly all bitter or just something shitty. Its easier to google RC vendor and find one and make a million hits for a grand like a previous poster said its drug dealers selling this real criminals not your pot dealer or mushroom guy most people making LSD ain't in it for the money I guess kinda like teachers in America too...........

 

[Incunabula]

Sigh

This is the third time I repeat myself......Obviously it depends were you live, and what people you now, and what venues you frequent. Off cause you can't buy LSD from some junkie on the corner. And you never could, generally.

Absolutely, To score some LSD I'd rather choose a european psytrance festival, than an american rock festival, go figure.....

You guys are just doing it wrong.

 

[captaintom]

as others have said, there will always be legit LSD around if you know where to find it, you're just going to have to filter through a lot more shit in order to do so...people need to get wise and realise the difference between these chemicals. oh how I long for the bygone days I never knew where acid was plentiful and pure 8)

 

[psood0nym]

Ehhh honestly I think most people who think LSD is common isn't in America lol from years of being around the game yes LSD is around and often but at the sane time there's wayyy more fake shit. If you go to a festival in America a nd just buy "tabs" there mostly all bitter or just something shitty.

This is mere conjecture, though. If there's proper evidence for your side of the argument -- meaning objective tests on a majority of (pseudo) random samples confirming chemical substitution on what was sold as LSD -- it hasn't been presented in this thread, whereas such evidence has been presented for the contrary.

The only evidence your side of the argument has offered that seems to be supportive of it is anecdotes from posters who often recall tasting bitterness on what's been sold to them as LSD, as LSD is tasteless. The problem is that sense evidence can't be weighed as highly as what objective tests supply, since bitterness could simply indicate the presence of bitter impurities such as unreacted synthesis precursors or degradation products like iso-LSD. Even then, because of LSD's extremely high potency, there's little reason to assume such impurities would have any intrinsic effect on experience because for them to influence the trip in a way that's not psychosomatic they would by chance need to be as pharmacologically potent or more potent than LSD itself (e.g. in the double digit microgram range). This is unlikely, as very few chemicals that aren't military weapons are as pharmacologically potent as LSD.

There's more, but at this point I'm going to NSFW it because I think some people might click it hoping for porn and also because Bluelighters with the attention spans of goldfish will do something moronic like post "tl;dr" if I don't (as if books shouldn't exist or as if any historically recent argument of consequence was ever short and didn't require studious patience, gah!! *self immolates*).

NSFW:

Further, an event reported on by Erowid where people admitted "no qualitative difference" between street acid and pure Sandoz LSD from 1955 supports the idea that synthesis impurities in street acid have no intrinsic influence on the quality of a trip. The obvious rebuttal that the 1955 acid had degraded and so could not be compared is not cogent as everybody tripped as strongly as they should have off the dose given on the assumption that it was still highly pure. Further yet, Erowid states that LSD chemists have told them stories of customers raving about one set of blotters and denouncing another as "dirty" despite the fact that the chemist laid the exact same LSD in the same concentration on both blotters! Human beings and their spiteful judgments from sense evidence alone is what's bunk.

Fuck it, let's keep going: A chemist could have a bad synthesis where the end product is only 50% percent LSD and 50% bitter "not-LSD" and still get as much LSD on a tab as was originally intended by laying half as many blotters as intended. Such blotters could be expected to be bitter, true, but since any pharmacological qualities of the "not LSD" on them are inconsequential they could be honestly expected to provide the same experience as the originally intended pure batch. This all goes to show that a dealer could sell people perfectly effective LSD tabs that taste like shit with pure and honest intentions and they would still denounce him as an unscrupulous pusher of bunk and lament the situation on the internet. As Rainbow Warrior posted:

in switzerland and in spain (and i think netherlands as well) you can get your doses tested, the results are almost always the same: it's real LSD it's just dosed way lower than what people bought it as...

It strikes me as likely that the number one reason that people get what they've been sold as LSD objectively tested in these countries is precisely because it tastes bitter, which, if true, seems to indicate bitterness is an unreliable indicator of something not being LSD. This is a mere supposition on my part admittedly, but it's also plausible. Until that up-to-date DEA Microgram evidence I've been asking for from the start shows up and indicates the majority of confiscated samples from 2010 - current were DOX/Bromo-dragonfly/25-Xs etc., I really don't know what is motivating the belief that it's all bunk other than the bitterness of the posters themselves. Even if that happens, though, despite being wrong our side will still have been more sensible given what we had to work with.

Now, god dammit, I want this made a sticky or something because this is about the fifth time I've been involved in this argument in my Bluelighter career and every year another flock of posters flies in raining down the same caustic shit all over the nice shiny finish our side has given the topic [/semi-joking].

 

[Transform]

Let's try to keep this less of an "LSD does not exist" thread if we can. Thanks.
For the purposes of this discussion let's assume that the data is correct and that real LSD is indeed available to well connected individuals.

For our discussion:

Will the popularity of relatively safe, similar substitutes push LSD out of the market?
Can LSD and substitutes easily be differentiated with test kits?
Would increased LSD production allow it to easily regain it's former status?
Will it become commonplace for LSD to be "cut" with other active substances?

 

[kidklmx]

Just to nitpick, an adulterant is a cutting agent, which is more like adding washing powder to cocaine for extra profits. The NBOMes and DOxs are "alternatives" or whatever term applies here. Though that opens up a different question, is the acid found on taps pure acid? I don't mean impurities from the synth. It's not too unreasonable to think that there are a lot of dealers that make "250ug" blotters using 70-100 ug of LSD, and then a larger amount of NBOMe or DOx.

 

[KavemanCam]

On course? LSD is already faker than ecstasy IMO. MDMA isn't that rare of a chemical with hundreds or thousands of chemists worldwide. LSD on the other hand is made by a handful of people, and is much more difficult to precoure the chemicals as well as to make. The tests for MDMA are also more reliable, but while a LSD test kit exists people can still pass off certain chemicals such as 5-meo-amt as LSD with the Ehirchs test kit. I can tell you with a high level of certainty that 95%+ of the world acid is fake. With that 5% mostly being located in the Netherlands or surrounding countries. If you can get real legitimate acid consider yourself EXTREMELY lucky.

I wish there was a like button. My brother took 2 hits of what was supposed to be acid and freaked out and masturbated in front of his friends and beat the shit out of my mom as he ran out of the house bare footed with no shirt toward his car screaming he needed his dad. Since that trip his grip on reality has been limited and he's recently come to the conclusion he can't do any drugs at all. I don't think this would happen on real L. All this unsafe shit needs to get up off the streets... Just regulate governments!

 

[psood0nym]

Let's try to keep this less of an "LSD does not exist" thread if we can. Thanks.
For the purposes of this discussion let's assume that the data is correct and that real LSD is indeed available to well connected individuals.

For our discussion:

1 Will the popularity of relatively safe, similar substitutes push LSD out of the market?
2 Can LSD and substitutes easily be differentiated with test kits?
3 Would increased LSD production allow it to easily regain it's former status?
4 Will it become commonplace for LSD to be "cut" with other active substances?

Good idea. After this I think (and hope) I'm out.

1.Doubt it, at least not much more than the RC psychedelic scene has until now. Since 2010-ish and going forward it seems like RCs are a much larger threat to the illicit stimulant, dissociative, and empathogen markets. Until there's an orally active fun and easy-going easy to smuggle legal LSD substitute that's physiologically similarly benign and has a linear dose-response curve that serves to somewhat idiot-proof it LSD will persevere.

2. Couldn't say. Looks like the list of suspected adulterants that can substitute for it (at least in blotter form) are fairly limited, which is helpful. Active lysergamides could present a problem, but evidence I've seen of this occurring is not widespread to my knowledge, and to the extent that new active lysergamides can be made without making LSD first I'm sure chemists have been trying to do this since LSD was made illegal decades ago yet there's little to suggest it's happened.

3. Interesting question. I personally love LSD and think it's a great full spectrum psychedelic, yet if I could only keep it or one currently "legal" psychedelic I'd choose 4-AcO-DMT, 4-ho-DPT, DPT, and 2C-E (not necessarily in that order) before it. Still, because of reasons given in #1 above and the mystique both its relative inaccessibility as well as a history that's made it legendary beyond its intrinsic value have granted it, I would expect a substantial resurgence, yes. Erowid has already opined that major busts may be behind the drop in availability registered in polls during the early 2000s.

4. Most posts of mine in this thread provide my reasoning for thinking it unlikely.

 

[dan k]

Will the popularity of relatively safe, similar substitutes push LSD out of the market?

i have seen this happening at all of the festivals in the usa
it seemed like everyone that said they had lsd at electric forest, summercamp, wakarusa, infrasound, summerset where all bunking people with 25i, 25c or inactive.

i dont like taking nbomes when i want LSD, so i always swallow my doses right away to avoid getting nbomed

Can LSD and substitutes easily be differentiated with test kits?

i have never heard of 4-meo-X or 5-meo-X being sold as lsd so yes i believe the ehrlich test is reliable

my friends (who had legit lsd and ehrlich test kits) actually ended up beating up a few kids cause they tested there stuff and where still selling it to people as lsd.
even on the furthur(bob weir and phil lesh from the grateful dead) tour only a few people in the family had czech 25 or family fluff, everyone else had 25i nbome.

Would increased LSD production allow it to easily regain it's former status?

yes

Will it become commonplace for LSD to be "cut" with other active substances?

i hope not. why have real lsd+some bunk shit??
but even back 8 years ago i got DOBed and DOIed though so people trying to pass phenethlamines as lsd is nothing new.




i am grateful to have very reliable sources here in the midwest
havnt had a problem getting LSD or MDMA for over a year.
and people here sell 25i, 25c, dob, 2cb, mxe, 5-meo-dipt and 6-apb as what they actually are.

 

[Crashing]

I've been getting NBOMed for years and it always really fucked with me until recently when i actually tried NBOMes, and now it all makes sense. I have gotten real LSD only a handful of times but probably have gotten products labelled LSD dozens of times.

It's sad because NBOMe is utter garbage when compared to LSD.

 

[lighting fixture]

I wish there was a like button. My brother took 2 hits of what was supposed to be acid and freaked out and masturbated in front of his friends and beat the shit out of my mom as he ran out of the house bare footed with no shirt toward his car screaming he needed his dad. Since that trip his grip on reality has been limited and he's recently come to the conclusion he can't do any drugs at all. I don't think this would happen on real L. All this unsafe shit needs to get up off the streets... Just regulate governments!

Spoiler

Although not exactly the same obviously, this excerpt depicts someone freaking out, breaking a lot of things, and masturbating (in front of a therapist, but still), all on real LSD. Not to say that these new RCs are safe and should be on the streets, but these kind of things can happen when the wrong people take any psychedelic.

 

[dan k]

^^ i have seen similar effects from tested lsd firsthand..

Spoiler

i gave an exgirlfriend 3 tabs of decently potent lsd(100-130ug)
two hours later i was playing keep-away with glowsticks and out of nowhere her eyes went wide and face looked scared as shit, she stopped trying to grab the glowsticks and started swatting at my face, started to mummble some jibberish, she fell down and her legs started twitching, she said she was overheating and to pour water on her spine? we tried to get her into the bath tub, but on the way she was punching and scratching my face, she was screaming things like "fuck the goverment" and "you'll never take me alive"
apparently she thought she was in a government lsd trial in a mental hospital.

she later said that she always thought they where testing drugs on her mother while she was still alive and in a mental hospital. when her mother killed herself, my exgf was put in a mental hospital after that for 6 months which is what im pretty sure made her freak out when we moved her into the all white bathroom and where all standing above her
she didnt recognize me or anyone for an hour after this happened.

some people should just not take lsd