If weed isn't a "real" psychedelic how do you explain arabesque/hindu art?

[CosmicG]

Screw the psycho babble this and that THC is Psychoactive chemical it acts just like all the other ones its a psychedelic. If you smoke it eat it whatever and live a physical human life then you know it's psycadelic

 

[ebola?]

Okay...we're at this point: how should we define psychedelia?

ebola

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Okay...we're at this point: how should we define psychedelia?

ebola

Wikipedia says...

A psychedelic substance is a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception, typically by agonising serotonin receptors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

I'd agree. It also mentions cannabis on the same page. Direct serotonin receptor agonism isn't required, but that is what produces the effects of many psychedelic drugs. Cannabis seems to affect serotonin, there are a few studies & it's obvious that it's psychedelic when it's used to potentiate other psychedelic drugs, or in high dose/low tolerance cannabis use without other drugs, as we see from all the stoned Indians in the links.

Cannabis is a psychedelic, it's been used religiously for a long time, especially on the Indian sub-continent, other psychedelic drugs have been used by religious people in the past too, psychedelic drug use isn't required to produce colourful geometric patterns & they look good even when you're not on drugs.

 

[ebola?]

This is, honestly, a bit of a non-ambitious beginning. We should be able to put forth a definition but also establish why we are using that definition over others.
I personally think that we should define psychedelia in terms of changes to subjective experience rather than anchoring it in a particular set of pharmacology. If it so happens that these changes in thought and experience only happen with a particular type of pharmacology, fine, but I don't think they need be.

If we really need to begin empirically, I think that there is something rather telling with the particular overlap between serotonergic compounds, cannabinoids, and 5ht2a agonists.

ebola

 

[DrGreenthumb]

I don't know, I think wikipedia does ok, that page could be cleaned up a bit though. There are nmda antagonists, nitrous & salvia too, I'd consider them psychedelic as well, but that's more controversial than calling weed psychedelic. Anything that alters perception & cognition - rather than just speeding it up, slowing it down or blocking pain could be considered psychedelic.

 

[ebola?]

This is still woefully vague: what is psychedelia? "Anything that alters perception and cognition" applies to nearly all psychoactive drugs.

ebola

 

[Ismene]

Great

Here's some more:

This first one is really good. It's a short film about a Government licensed bhang shop in Jaisalmir, including interview with local customers.

Are they all smoking blunts?

btw, are we now arguing about whether there's been cannabis use in the Indian subcontinent? Cos I'll agree with that for sure.

 

[Ismene]

Cannabis is a psychedelic, it's been used religiously for a long time

Hold on Dr, those two things arn't automatically linked. You can use cannabis without taking doses that make it "psychedelic" (Tho I've personally never had any psychedelic effects from cannabis - certainly not anything remotely like mushrooms or acid)

As I've said before wine is used religiously in a vast number of places - but you arn't going to find many people pissed out their heads on wine during religious ceremonies. There's a big difference in how people use it religously and how it's used by a teenager at a Kiss concert. You feel me?

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Why don't you watch some of those videos & see how fucked up they're getting? I'm not feeling you, I'm laughing at you, maybe it's this cannabis infused milk drink I had. That kid at the kiss concert would be sat in the corner crying, white as a ghost if he had those amounts.

Did you see those balls of charas going in the bhang in that video fagott posted? That's going to really mess up a whole day.

Keep up with those logical fallacies, they're hilarious while I'm tripping on chocolate bhang.

You could use cannabis at smaller doses, if you're not a Hindu holy man, but they seem really dedicated to the cause.

 

[Ismene]

That video you linked to? You do realise that isn't a genuine ceremony? From the 2 seconds I watched of it, it's from a bollywood film. Are you now using bollywood films to support your arguments?

Tell you what, I'll link you to a James Bond film to claim that's what spies do.

I'll need some of that chocolate bhang if you keep coming up with hilarious arguments like that Dr.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

You wanted some stuff that wasn't in poverty, besides it's a whole playlist, 90-odd videos of Hindus getting wreaked out of their minds on cannabis in the name of a Hindu festival. I'm not sure how much evidence you need that cannabis is very important to Hinduism.

 

[Ismene]

You wanted some stuff that wasn't in poverty

Not quite - I wanted something by Hindus who actually build temples, not sadhus and sufis who are usually ascetics living in caves. There's a big spectrum to "Hindu" culture.

And yeah - it has to be real man, I don't want a fucking bollywood film used as your "evidence". Bollywood films main purpose is entertainment not fact-checking.

90-odd videos of Hindus getting wreaked out of their minds on cannabis in the name of a Hindu festival

You're confident you can link me to a Hindu ceremony in a temple where they're all fucking baked are you? Or are you just meaning on the fringes of a Hindu festival where there's a million people in the street, there's one guy in rags smoking a blunt?

The things they smoke religiously in India are called chillums: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillum_(pipe)

Right. What do you think you're proving by this? That people have used implements to smoke things? I'll go along with that.

Of course all the stuff about Indians using marijuana is all made up

Is this what you're arguing about now Dr? That cannabis has been used at some time in the past by people on the Indian Subcontinent? There's no argument about that - of course it has. That's not the question. The question for the last 4 pages was whether it had such an overwhelming, utterly central, dominant place in Hindu religion that you painted the shit you saw when you were baked on enormous temples to "praise God". That's the bit I'm questioning. Y'follow?

Do we even have any text from Hindu scripture that links getting totally baked on cannabis to worshipping God? We're going to need a ton of that first before we can even begin to imagine that they'd let the baked guy paint what he wanted on the walls.

 

[Incunabula]

Is this what you're arguing about now Dr? That cannabis has been used at some time in the past by people on the Indian Subcontinent? There's no argument about that - of course it has. That's not the question.

That's not what you have been arguimenting for in this thread, as we can see from these quotes. but you have the right to change your mind, obviously.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? That drugs wern't looked down on in India? The only stories of ancient drug use I know of in India is the assassins

Maybe. Maybe not. If you're a drug user that's obviously an appealing idea - "They were all getting stoned dude, just like me". It's like the use of ayahuasca in south america - when you really look into it they often arn't even using DMT at big enough dosage levels to even trip. Often it's simply to help them vomit and shit to get rid of worms. Similarly bhang is largely used as a medical cure or as part of a religious ceremony like catholics use wine.
.

And you automatically assume that because this concoction has got a few cannabis leaves in it that means the only reason they use it must be because they're getting baked. Just like wine in christian rituals - they must be using it to get drunk right? Just like you and your buddies do.
.

Important in the sense that it's a minor adjunct to a religious ceremony tho - not because Hindu meetings are full of people giggling saying "We're gonna get baked soon dude". I think that's where people get confused.

But you've been talking bhang for the entire thread - you do realise that bhang is a drink right? I believe it's made with water which isn't even that good a way of getting high from cannabis leaves anyway. It's no good posting a video of someone in India smoking a blunt and then saying "I've shown Ismene this time". Unless you've now moved onto saying Hindus all sit round the temple smoking blunts - and I've only heard of the Snoop Dogg school of Hunduism doing that.

Ismene, I know your talking to greeenthumb, but I feel I need to answer your last post as well (I hope you don't think I'm mr. Greenthumb or doldrugs) I never questioned the sentiment that hindu art or architecture was inspired by drugs/cannabis, I don't think it is, and I have never said so, on the contrary

What I have opined against is all these quotes from you, from this thread, were you clearly seem to have misunderstood the role of cannabis in India, as proven by this short documentary from Jaisalmir. Lots of people are using cannabis in India, in various ways, both religiously and to get stoned.

Holy bhang - short documentary - again......

You're confident you can link me to a Hindu ceremony in a temple where they're all fucking baked are you? Or are you just meaning on the fringes of a Hindu festival where there's a million people in the street, there's one guy in rags smoking a blunt.

Well, they might be in rags, but I wouldn't exactly call it a couple of guys.

God of cannabis - NatGeo documentary

Kumbh mela - worlds biggest festival - NatGeo documentary

Extreme pilgrim - Kumbh mela - BBC documentary

kumbh mela is the biggest religious festival in the world - A million sadhus congregating - and as we know, Shiva worshipping sadhus smoke charas. The two last documentaries have the charas smoking going on sometime in the middle. They're both really good, definitely worth watching

I wouldn't personally call that "a couple of guys......". And let me repost preemptively, no one in this thread claimed that all Indians smoke cannabis, just that it plays a mayor role in their culture, both religiously and recreationally.

Unless you've now moved onto saying Hindus all sit round the temple smoking blunts - and I've only heard of the Snoop Dogg school of Hunduism doing that.

that's exactly what I am saying. Well, not all hindus, obviously, India is huge, and it depends on were you go, which gods they worship, and which class of society they are from. As Bagseed already said two pages back, the growing middle class is getting westernized, and is more and more looking down on drug use, but that doesn't make it less rampant in India, or less important for Shiva worshippers

 

[Doldrugs]

Not quite - I wanted something by Hindus who actually build temples

You're going to need a time machine.

Do we even have any text from Hindu scripture that links getting totally baked on cannabis to worshipping God?

Not sure about God, but a god named Shiva is strongly associated with cannabis. It's identified in ancient writings as sacred. This has already been mentioned in the thread.

 

[Ismene]

That's not what you have been arguimenting for in this thread, as we can see from these quotes. but you have the right to change your mind, obviously.
s

All those posts were saying that you can use cannabis as an adjunct to a religious ceremony without assuming that means everyone is baked. That's obvious - as I've told you a thousand times, wine is used in christian ceremonies, that doesn't mean they get drunk. Y'follow? This seems to be a point that you're having a hard time grasping.

no one in this thread claimed that all Indians smoke cannabis, just that it plays a mayor role in their culture, both religiously

I've seen no evidence that getting baked plays a "major" role in Hinduism. So far you havn't produced a single quote from any Hindu text that says "Thy shall get baked". So forget the "major" bit.

and recreationally

This is a very different point to everything you've been arguing before. Are you now claiming it's recreational and has nothing to do with religion? You can start another thread about recreational use if you like - but that's got absolutely nothing to do with religious use. That's like saying "Wine is used in christian ceremonies and when you go to a Kiss concert". They don't have anything to do with each other.

the growing middle class is getting westernized, and is more and more looking down on drug use

So you're assuming that getting baked was smiled upon before India got westernised? That's a helluva big assumption. Deeply religious, conservative elderly Indians took their children to temples and "smiled on" people getting baked did they? You absolutely sure about that? "Yes children look at the man giggling uncontrollably and falling over - that will be you one day my child".

 

[Doldrugs]

All those posts were saying that you can use cannabis as an adjunct to a religious ceremony without assuming that means everyone is baked. That's obvious - as I've told you a thousand times, wine is used in christian ceremonies, that doesn't mean they get drunk. Y'follow? This seems to be a point that you're having a hard time grasping.

No one's having a hard time following it, they're disputing it. Yes, they get high. Yes, if you mix hash with butter, milk, and yogurt you get high. They get high in India. They have gotten high in India for thousands of years, both religiously and recreationally. It's true historically, and it's in their holy scriptures.

So you're assuming that getting baked was smiled upon before India got westernised? That's a helluva big assumption.

It's not an assumption. It's a well established fact. Unlike, for instance, the assumption that marijuana use was looked down upon in India because "all monotheistic cultures look down upon drug use." That was a nested assumption, with layers of wrong blended together like charas and ghee.

 

[Incunabula]

What Doldrugs just said.......just that. And there's plenty of evidence for it in this thread, for any one who isn't blind.

If use of cannabis is an intrinsic part of shiva worship today, why woulnd't it have been so in the past?

There's both historical and archeological evidence that cannabis has been known and used in India as far back as 2500 years ago. No, I can't be bothered to link anymore evidence, I give up, this is way beyond silly........

 

[Ismene]

I've had doldrugs on ignore for a while now so it's no use mentioning his posts. It isn't an intrinsic part of Hinduism today - I bet you could walk into any 99% of Hindu temples on earth today and not be offered cannabis. Go into your local Hindu temple and try and score dope. How much do you bet me you'll score?

As for religious use in the past - it's anyones guess. As I've told you, most people don't like getting high on cannabis. Even amongst young people in the 21st century where cannabis has never been popular - it's still a minority pastime. The idea that deeply religious, conservative, elderly Hindus of the ancient past all liked getting high is too stupid for words.

No-one's arguing that cannabis has been used in India for a long time. I'm not even sure you know what your point is anymore so we're probably better off letting the thread die.

 

[ebola?]

People have brought up the example of wine used as sacrament in contemporary Christianity as rather telling...what about use of wine in Purim?
I'm thinking Christianity's approach to its psychoactive sacrament is the exception rather than the rule.

ebola

 

[Ismene]

Do they drink it like they're at a Kiss concert in purim?