if a drug gets out of you system faster will your tolerance go down faster?

[Unknown]

^ Thank you for backing that up sonic.


I really hope you're kidding. Divide that by number by 120 and I believe you. I really, really hope you are joking when you say methadone has a 120 day half-life. If not, at least everyone will now know not to take any advice from you.

If you didn't get how the whole end of my post was sarcasm, then GOD HELP YOU!

ODers: If anyone needs any solid, true advice, please PM me (or anyone else you trust), I worry about the misinformation that is spread around OD at times; I just don't want anybody to get hurt, I just lost my best friend less than a week ago.

Im sorry you lost your friend, but the information I gave, even IF wrong, wouldn't harm a soul. Like sonic said though, bupe can react differently depending on the person...Im not repeating myself anymore. This is a circle talking game. Ugh. And you may disagree with what I have to say, but I believe I am correct, and so does a handful of others. So im done replying to this thread, and you can defame me, call me a moron, tell me i'm wrong all you want, and I wont care...

 

[Unknown]

^ Actually, buprenorphine does have long lasting withdrawal effects although they might not be severe, it depends on the person. The severity might not be as bad as methadone, but the duration of "acute" buprenorphine withdrawal can be up to a few weeks. There does seem to be a correlation between the half life of a given opiate or active metabolite and the duration of potential withdrawal effects.

I never denied a correlation between withdrawals and half life. I denied that there is a DIRECT correlation between the two. I believe there are other variables involved, listed in my posts above.

 

[CH3CH2OH]

William, you are wrong on essentially all points. You may have taken some Chem, but you sure as hell dont know anything about it. JC is right about what an acetyl group is. It is a functional group, comprised of the atoms that JC posted, and it happens to include a double bond, but that is not what causes the increased effects of heroin. I believe that the greater BBB permeability is caused predominately by the fact that the two large acetyl groups make the molecule less polar and therefore more fat soluble, which is what is needed to pass the BBB.

Also yes, there is a correlation btwn half-life and the length of withdrawal. Though everyone reacts differently to every drug, and have slightly different w/d's, it is ussually the case that the longer the half-life, the longer the withdrawals. Such is the case with methadone and Levorphanol, two long acting opioids. It is also sometimes the case the the w/ds from such long acting drugs are less intense than w/ds from short acting opioids like fentanyl and hydromorphone, but they also last longer when w/ding from an opioid with a long elimination half-life (this by the way refers to the amount of time for the drug to clear the system, not just reduced to 1/2 the original amount).

You are clearly wrong, and just because you had a bad source is no excuse for arguing for incorrect information, when as JC pointed out, a 1 min google search would reveal what an acetyl group is, and a bit more time on google would also have revealed to you the truth about half-life and length of w/ds.

You need to stop arguing about things you have no/incorrect knowledge of. Like JC said, in some instances, pretending that you know something and spreading misinformation could lead to some serious consequences.

By the way, the reason this is a 'broken record conversation' is because you refuse to take the advice of people who are clearly more knowledgeable than you in this area.

 

[Kannisto]

like if you drink a lot of water and stuff does it help your tolerance go down too?

as far as opiates go the only was to lower your tolerance is to wait it out. even then youre still screwed. once you build that tolerance it comes back extremely fast. to the point that its barely worth it.

i stopped taking oxys for 4 weeks, before i quit i was taking 800mg a day and 120mg of methadone when i was broke. anyway one day after i got clean i went out and bought 10 80s and at first i was snorting 40mg but by the fifth 80 i was doing full ones to be satisfied, which was what i was taking when i was at my worst.

the only way i can imagine it would be worth it is to take 6-12 months off. maybe then it will be out of your system. remember opiates stay stored in your fat for at least 4 months.

 

[johanneschimpo]

William, you are wrong on essentially all points. You may have taken some Chem, but you sure as hell dont know anything about it. JC is right about what an acetyl group is. It is a functional group, comprised of the atoms that JC posted, and it happens to include a double bond, but that is not what causes the increased effects of heroin. I believe that the greater BBB permeability is caused predominately by the fact that the two large acetyl groups make the molecule less polar and therefore more fat soluble, which is what is needed to pass the BBB.

Also yes, there is a correlation btwn half-life and the length of withdrawal. Though everyone reacts differently to every drug, and have slightly different w/d's, it is ussually the case that the longer the half-life, the longer the withdrawals. Such is the case with methadone and Levorphanol, two long acting opioids. It is also sometimes the case the the w/ds from such long acting drugs are less intense than w/ds from short acting opioids like fentanyl and hydromorphone, but they also last longer when w/ding from an opioid with a long elimination half-life (this by the way refers to the amount of time for the drug to clear the system, not just reduced to 1/2 the original amount).

You are clearly wrong, and just because you had a bad source is no excuse for arguing for incorrect information, when as JC pointed out, a 1 min google search would reveal what an acetyl group is, and a bit more time on google would also have revealed to you the truth about half-life and length of w/ds.

You need to stop arguing about things you have no/incorrect knowledge of. Like JC said, in some instances, pretending that you know something and spreading misinformation could lead to some serious consequences.

By the way, the reason this is a 'broken record conversation' is because you refuse to take the advice of people who are clearly more knowledgeable than you in this area.

The bolding is mine.

This is the main reason I care. Its not an ego thing, its not a "who's smarter?" thing (though I know the answer to that), its about harm reduction, which if you remember, is the sole reason this forum exists. I care to squelch the spread of misinformation to ensure the safety of anybody who uses this BL. Many people, often times young people, come to BL, and more specifically OD, not knowing much about drugs or a particular drug. I don't want them to read and believe and first thing they see, and have it be something that is incorrect and potentially dangerous. Harm reduction. Thats the name of the game.

And the "broken record" thing at the end is true as well. It doesn't matter who's "right" or "wrong"... what matters is that the right information is posted on these boards, once again for that thing that everyone seems to forget - harm reduction. I will keep on pounding down correct information so long as anybody continues to refute it or say anything contrary to it. That is my mission, that is the only reason I post on BL, and the reason 99% of my posts are in OD. I have the privilege of going to a top-tier school and being well-educated, and I feel it is my duty to share my knowledge with others, in order to promote the safe and responsible use of drugs. Harm reduction.

Mr. Ethanol (), its good to have someone else around here who knows a thing or two about chemistry/biochemistry/pharmacology/etc. You really should post more often.

 

[Unknown]

William, you are wrong on essentially all points. You may have taken some Chem, but you sure as hell dont know anything about it. JC is right about what an acetyl group is. It is a functional group, comprised of the atoms that JC posted, and it happens to include a double bond, but that is not what causes the increased effects of heroin. I believe that the greater BBB permeability is caused predominately by the fact that the two large acetyl groups make the molecule less polar and therefore more fat soluble, which is what is needed to pass the BBB.

Also yes, there is a correlation btwn half-life and the length of withdrawal. Though everyone reacts differently to every drug, and have slightly different w/d's, it is ussually the case that the longer the half-life, the longer the withdrawals. Such is the case with methadone and Levorphanol, two long acting opioids. It is also sometimes the case the the w/ds from such long acting drugs are less intense than w/ds from short acting opioids like fentanyl and hydromorphone, but they also last longer when w/ding from an opioid with a long elimination half-life (this by the way refers to the amount of time for the drug to clear the system, not just reduced to 1/2 the original amount).

You are clearly wrong, and just because you had a bad source is no excuse for arguing for incorrect information, when as JC pointed out, a 1 min google search would reveal what an acetyl group is, and a bit more time on google would also have revealed to you the truth about half-life and length of w/ds.

You need to stop arguing about things you have no/incorrect knowledge of. Like JC said, in some instances, pretending that you know something and spreading misinformation could lead to some serious consequences.

By the way, the reason this is a 'broken record conversation' is because you refuse to take the advice of people who are clearly more knowledgeable than you in this area.

Ugh.... blah. more "bash will" vomit. I lost interest 1/2 way reading it. I dont care what you think. You wasted your time responding. Get back on topic or don't post. mmmk?

ugh, legitimate posts gone flames...

The bolding is mine.

This is the main reason I care. Its not an ego thing, its not a "who's smarter?" thing (though I know the answer to that), its about harm reduction, which if you remember, is the sole reason this forum exists. I care to squelch the spread of misinformation to ensure the safety of anybody who uses this BL. Many people, often times young people, come to BL, and more specifically OD, not knowing much about drugs or a particular drug. I don't want them to read and believe and first thing they see, and have it be something that is incorrect and potentially dangerous. Harm reduction. Thats the name of the game.

And the "broken record" thing at the end is true as well. It doesn't matter who's "right" or "wrong"... what matters is that the right information is posted on these boards, once again for that thing that everyone seems to forget - harm reduction. I will keep on pounding down correct information so long as anybody continues to refute it or say anything contrary to it. That is my mission, that is the only reason I post on BL, and the reason 99% of my posts are in OD. I have the privilege of going to a top-tier school and being well-educated, and I feel it is my duty to share my knowledge with others, in order to promote the safe and responsible use of drugs. Harm reduction.

Mr. Ethanol (), its good to have someone else around here who knows a thing or two about chemistry/biochemistry/pharmacology/etc. You really should post more often.

k...ok. like i said, i lost interest in this thread, meaning i dont care. The kid flamed me, so he MUST be correct. I don't care what others on BL think, but this is not a debate. This is "make myself seem like im right." Im not participating in this game.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ You lost interest in CH3CH2OH's post because he was using "big sciencey words?"

Why not just admit you're wrong instead of saying that "you don't care anymore?" Its called being a big man. If your username is correct, you are 22 or 23 years old. Don't you think its time to grow up a bit?

 

[Unknown]

^ You lost interest in CH3CH2OH's post because he was using "big sciencey words?"

I dont mean to be rude at all, but do you think before you post? You are pretty smart at this stuff, but you lack a little common sense. If you think I lost interest because he explained himself, plz work on having an open mind. It is not my job to explain every detail that you don't understand.

Why not just admit you're wrong instead of saying that "you don't care anymore?" Its called being a big man. If your username is correct, you are 22 or 23 years old. Don't you think its time to grow up a bit?

I don't care anymore because i hate stupid little forum fights when theres a topic at hand. I tried explaining myself numerous times, but it goes right through you. You havn't ONCE took what i said into consideration. You, in other words, say "Your wrong!" in every reply. If you answered my questions and the OPs questions without coming off the way you did, then I/we may be apt to listen more. I may of handled some things in this thread like a child, and it wasnt right. i apologize to everyone involved. But heres the sad part: You either refuse to pretend to refuse where your faults are in this as well. I am being a man right now!

mods: Can we close this? I think the OP got both sides here!

 

[johanneschimpo]

You, in other words, say "Your wrong!" in every reply.

It's *you're* wrong.

If you answered my questions and the OPs questions without coming off the way you did, then I/we may be apt to listen more. I may of handled some things in this thread like a child, and it wasnt right. i apologize to everyone involved. But heres the sad part: You either refuse to pretend to refuse where your faults are in this as well. I am being a man right now!
I think the OP got both sides here!

Yes, he got the correct side, from myself and Ham-milton and CH3CH2OH. And he got the incorrect side from you. He did get both sides.

 

[Unknown]

It's *you're* wrong.


Yes, he got the correct side, from myself and Ham-milton and CH3CH2OH. And he got the incorrect side from you. He did get both sides.

Whatever you say, big guy!!!

/done

PS isnt there a way to block posts from a certain user *cough*johnneschimpo*cough*???

EDIT: nevermind, i figured out the "ignore" feature!!!

 

[bingey]

^
wow somebody close this thread , started out real interesting but now it's just an ego battle


p.s william , I'm happy i learned something at the start if thought you were right you should be happy these people taught you something

 

[ayoOC80]

i was reading this thread at work on my blackberry, and when i got home i just needed to reply. not that i have any vital answers to the questions, thats already been sorted out, but JC, thank you very much for your information, i appreciate it myself and im sure many others will as well, you are correct from everything i have read on this subject 100%, backed by ethanol as well. like i said, thanks, and it was also funny as shit to watch someone just be so wrong and convince himself he was right.

edit: i just blew half an oc80 after hurting all morning, so im high and rambling, lol.

 

[Unknown]

^
wow somebody close this thread , started out real interesting but now it's just an ego battle


p.s william , I'm happy i learned something at the start if thought you were right you should be happy these people taught you something

I may have been a little off at the beginning, and yes, I learned some stuff, but I still believe that withdrawals are not CAUSED by half-life. I believe there are other variables involved, half-life being one of them. I didn't really hear anyone disagree with me on this. To bad JC helped to turn this thread sideways into an ego battle. But yes, bingieboy, thanks for pointing this out and for reading both sides

Nah, its not an ego battle, that William kid is just very stupid and stubborn and I don't take kindly to people dispensing false "information" which could potentially harm innocent people.

Reported: Flaming.

Please stop acting rude. Its against the rule
, and I want this to end

 

[Unknown]

i was reading this thread at work on my blackberry, and when i got home i just needed to reply. not that i have any vital answers to the questions, thats already been sorted out, but JC, thank you very much for your information, i appreciate it myself and im sure many others will as well, you are correct from everything i have read on this subject 100%, backed by ethanol as well. like i said, thanks, and it was also funny as shit to watch someone just be so wrong and convince himself he was right.

edit: i just blew half an oc80 after hurting all morning, so im high and rambling, lol.

I did step up and challenge the other side. Both sides had a legitimate argument, so im glad this helped you find the answer. your welcome for that!

 

[Ham-milton]

I did step up and challenge the other side. Both sides had a legitimate argument, so im glad this helped you find the answer. your welcome for that!

Both sides didn't, that's nonsense. Just because two sides can take a position doesn't mean that both sides have legitimacy. Accepting a compliment intended for someone else (that mocks you in the process) confirms you're really off your rocker

If you put as much time into getting your facts straight as you do into pretending your facts are straight the whole world, and this board in general would be a little bit better.

The Kappa receptor has physical dependance characteristics to it. Suboxone is a full/partial kappa agonist, meaning it hits the disphoria, CNS, and dependance aspects of the K receptor. Thats why those side effects are possible, and suboxone has anti depressant potential.

Lets begin by getting our facts straight: Buprenorphine IS NOT a Kappa agonist- neither partial or full (although you clearly state that it's both, despite all reason)- it's a Kappa ANTAGONIST.
Since you like to argue moronic points, here are a few sources you can check out before you argue this further:
www.springerlink.com/index/0FR4T0J037FH831R.pdf
www.springerlink.com/index/J7126P089912648U.pdf

Sure, you might be able to become dependent on a kappa agonist alone- it's never been documented, but I don't deny that it's possible. You're really confused too- you start out saying that kappa agonists produce dysphoria and physical dependence (Not sure on the latter, but the former is 100% correct) but that Suboxone (which your erroneously claim to be an agonist) produces anti-depressant effects.

It would seem a little sadistic to treat depression with a drug that causes dysphoria, no? Fortunately the whole premise is wrong, and Suboxone really does elicit an antidepressant effect without first making the user suffer from horrible dysphoria.

That's not the issue with this drug- the issue is whether or not you can become dependent on a kappa antagonist. It's never been seen, even in users on naltrexone long term. (yes, naltrexone is also a kappa antagonist, though apparently not the best http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/285/2/518.pdf).

 

[Unknown]

Great, your all assholes. ive tried to deal with this in a correct manner, but you keep pushing it. if this wasn't the internet, you wouldn't push ppl around or call them shitty names. seriously, stop being trashy people. to ham, jc, and the others, you need to work on your social skills, or is that why you turned to dope. and stfu, i dont want a response.

mods/admins: please just delete my username, because im done with this site. people focus on their egos more than harm reduction,which i dont want to be apart of this shit anymore. i contacted a mod twice about this, and no replies. so far, i believe this site is no different than any other forum out there. w/e, just delete my username please.

 

[sixpartseven]

in regards to sixpartseven's post

actually yes it does, it is one of the factors that has to do with a build up of tolerance (there are quite a few, also implicated in the severity and duration of withdrawals experienced)

tolerance builds up as a result of over-stimulation of a particular receptor (opioid receptors in this case) which leads to down-regulation and desensitization blah blah blah. but! the longer a drug is circulating in your body, the more time it has to associate with its target receptors and thus stimulate them. so! the quicker a drug is removed by your body (a smaller half life) theres a lesser chance for the drug to build up a tolerance.

that being said, whilst this factor is not as significant as other factors such as the drugs affinity/efficacy or bioavailability/method of admin, it can still play a significant role. so yes tolerance is your body getting used to the amount your taking, but the rate at which your body removes the drug directly effects this. and yes again a shorter half life does mean a quicker onset of withdrawals, but can also effect the severity and duration of withdrawals aswell.

well thats how i understand it anyways.

I get what youre saying, but as most others have said (unless I read them wrong) half-life does not have any effect on severity. Severity comes from tolerance, which can be affected by half-life, so I guess indirectly half-life has an affect on severity of withdrawals, but its not directly affected.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ Its direct:

longer half-life = longer time before onset of withdrawal
longer half-life = longer withdrawal period

Great, your all assholes. ive tried to deal with this in a correct manner, but you keep pushing it. if this wasn't the internet, you wouldn't push ppl around or call them shitty names. seriously, stop being trashy people. to ham, jc, and the others, you need to work on your social skills, or is that why you turned to dope. and stfu, i dont want a response.

mods/admins: please just delete my username, because im done with this site. people focus on their egos more than harm reduction,which i dont want to be apart of this shit anymore. i contacted a mod twice about this, and no replies. so far, i believe this site is no different than any other forum out there. w/e, just delete my username please.

We are all assholes because you said things that were factually incorrect and people who know what they're talking corrected you? LOL, deal with it. That is how this place works. Its all about the exchange of ideas and (correct) information. We are here to provide drug users information on safe drug use and harm reduction. In order to do this, we can't have people running around dispensing incorrect information.

As for the second part, I don't think they can delete usernames. You can stop visiting this site without having your name deleted, all you have to do is now type the URL into your browser anymore. If you're not willing to be a more responsible poster and stop giving out misinformation, perhaps that would be the best thing you could.

 

[sixpartseven]

Thats duration. Duration and severity are two different things, are they not?

Im not 100% sure on all this, and you know Im not trying to say Im right or wrong or whatever, Im just trying to understand it and dont want to create the illusion that I ever understood it. The chemistry part of things was something I never even wanted to pretend to know about. As you know, I specialize in the practice.

The way I thought I understood it was, you could have a low tolerance to methadone, which has a long half life, and the withdrawals will last a long time, but if your tolerance is somewhat low, the withdrawal symptoms wont be as bad. On the other hand, you could have a high tolerance to fentanyl, which has a short half life, and the withdrawals wont last long, but the symptoms can be very severe.

Using those examples, it would almost seem severity is conversely related to half-life, but I know that is not true. Its just an observation. It might also show that tolerance is the key to determining severity, not the half life.

So to clarify: Half-life does or does not affect severity (intensity, not duration) ?

 

[Ham-milton]

No, you're right.

Sort of.

Full agonists with long half lives will generally produce worse withdrawal syndromes.