if a drug gets out of you system faster will your tolerance go down faster?

[johanneschimpo]

Alright, well, I dont know what to tell you other than you really have no idea what your talking about. Everything I said can be backed up with sources and a little common sense. Please edit your post or delete it so you don't look embarrassing to other members.

I would expect more out of an ex-mod.

EDIT: Reported your post for flaming. That was uncalled for.

You can report me. I'm not flaming. I'm saying you're wrong on this, and you are. That's not flaming, thats facts.
Sorry, but I don't take kindly to people giving out misinformation. In this case, the ramifications aren't very severe, but in other situations that could lead to giving fatal information.

BingeBoy was right, half-life in this sense means the time for your body to convert the drug in question into its metabolites.

And an acetyl group is not a double bond. A double bond is called an "alkene," or if you're old-school, an "olefin."
Here's an acetyl group:

All I'm asking is that you have your facts straight before posting. Bad information can kill. I care about my fellow posters and my fellow human beings, so I try to make sure the information they get is accurate and safe.

 

[Unknown]

You can report me. I'm not flaming. I'm saying you're wrong on this, and you are. That's not flaming, thats facts.
Sorry, but I don't take kindly to people giving out misinformation. In this case, the ramifications aren't very severe, but in other situations that could lead to giving fatal information.

BingeBoy was right, half-life in this sense means the time for your body to convert the drug in question into its metabolites.

And an acetyl group is not a double bond. A double bond is called an "alkene," or if you're old-school, an "olefin."
Here's an acetyl group:

All I'm asking is that you have your facts straight before posting. Bad information can kill. I care about my fellow posters and my fellow human beings, so I try to make sure the information they get is accurate and safe.

You are looking up incorrect information, and I dont care to argue with you. If you dont understand where there is a double bond in heroin, then I guess do some research. Your post was flaming, and I will not speak to you until it is dealt with. You are rude and presented yourself quite like a jerk to other members. Again, a half-life, in scientific terms, means the exact half point where an element is inactive. But what does that have to do with what were all talking about? Some people here think that half life of a drug defines its potency or how withdrawals occur. That information is incorrect and ive defined myself several times, with a few people saying the same thing I have. As far as the vomit you spewed on your last paragraph, it doesn't really warrant a response. I did not leave bad information and I think the mature thing you could of done was produce constructive criticism if you disagreed with something. Having said all of this, I don't want a response from you, because I now lack respect for what I thought you were. I am pretty glad you are no longer a moderator, because I may of just said "The hell with this site..."

 

[johanneschimpo]

Bro, you're talking with a chemistry major. Don't bother arguing with me, I know what I'm talking about. Yes, there are double bonds in heroin, quite a few. But the acetyl group is not a double bond, its a many atoms (and OMG one of them has a double bond. We call a C=O bond a ketone by the way). And half-life is connected with withdrawals. A longer half-life means a longer time before onset of withdrawals and a longer withdrawal period. Like the difference someone pointed out earlier between methadone and morphine. Methadone half-life ~24 hours, morphine half-life ~4 hours. That is why methadone takes longer for the WDs to kick in, and why the WDs last longer. This is what I study in school, there's no need to argue with me.

 

[Unknown]

Bro, you're talking with a chemistry major. Don't bother arguing with me, I know what I'm talking about. Yes, there are double bonds in heroin, quite a few. But the acetyl group is not a double bond, its a many atoms (and OMG one of them has a double bond. We call a C=O bond a ketone by the way). And half-life is connected with withdrawals. A longer half-life means a longer time before onset of withdrawals and a longer withdrawal period. Like the difference someone pointed out earlier between methadone and morphine. Methadone half-life ~24 hours, morphine half-life ~4 hours. That is why methadone takes longer for the WDs to kick in, and why the WDs last longer. This is what I study in school, there's no need to argue with me.

Now was that hard to have an intelligent conversation? I will respect conversations like this and will take them into consideration. I, too, have studied chemistry. I have an understanding of what I'm talking about. If I didn't, then I wouldn't talk. The diacetyl group is a double bond. Moving on, I never denied that a longer half life means a longer time before the onset of withdrawals occur. This is common sense to me. What I fail to accept is that a longer half life results in a longer withdrawal period. One example against me is methadone. It has a long half life and a VERY long withdrawal period. However, look at buprenorphine. This has a max half life of 37 hours, and withdrawals to most people are minimal. I think withdrawals are dictated by the bonding strength to the mu and K receptors. Methadone has an extremely strong bond to the opiod receptors. Buprenorphine is a partial mu agonist and works 20 - 30x stronger than morphine on pain. It happens to have a huge half life, but doesn't quite fill the mu receptor to where there are drawn out withdrawals. Other opiates like hydromorphone, oxycodone, morphine, hydrocodone are full mu agonists. However, they all have different half lifes and different mu bonding potencies. The withdrawal period on all of them are different, and I think theres other factors such as tolerance/dependance (how many mu and k receptors are present in ones brain) and amount of time ones been on the drug (which ties into dependence and tolerance). Since we both understand each other on this issue, please feel free to give constructive criticism to my findings. This does not include "Your wrong about everything...blah blah blah". It makes me look creditable to other members / mods. I, too, dislike arguments. I say lets all get along .

 

[Unknown]

^^^I spent a lot of time writing that. Will anyone comment?

 

[ARCHANGEL21]

To deep for me... but great points by the both of you all!!!

 

[johanneschimpo]

Now was that hard to have an intelligent conversation? I will respect conversations like this and will take them into consideration. I, too, have studied chemistry. I have an understanding of what I'm talking about. If I didn't, then I wouldn't talk. The diacetyl group is a double bond. Moving on, I never denied that a longer half life means a longer time before the onset of withdrawals occur. This is common sense to me. What I fail to accept is that a longer half life results in a longer withdrawal period. One example against me is methadone. It has a long half life and a VERY long withdrawal period. However, look at buprenorphine. This has a max half life of 37 hours, and withdrawals to most people are minimal. I think withdrawals are dictated by the bonding strength to the mu and K receptors. Methadone has an extremely strong bond to the opiod receptors. Buprenorphine is a partial mu agonist and works 20 - 30x stronger than morphine on pain. It happens to have a huge half life, but doesn't quite fill the mu receptor to where there are drawn out withdrawals. Other opiates like hydromorphone, oxycodone, morphine, hydrocodone are full mu agonists. However, they all have different half lifes and different mu bonding potencies. The withdrawal period on all of them are different, and I think theres other factors such as tolerance/dependance (how many mu and k receptors are present in ones brain) and amount of time ones been on the drug (which ties into dependence and tolerance). Since we both understand each other on this issue, please feel free to give constructive criticism to my findings. This does not include "Your wrong about everything...blah blah blah". It makes me look creditable to other members / mods. I, too, dislike arguments. I say lets all get along .

OK, we can discuss this civilly.

An acetyl group is not a double bond. I posted a picture of it above. In the case of morphine, instead of the hydrogen in the 3 and 6 positions, its a carbonyl attached to a methyl group. Diacetyl means that there are two of them, once again in the 3 and 6 positions. Diacetyl =/= double bond. A double bond is called an "alkene."

And the reason why bupe's withdrawals are not as bad is because its a partial mu agonist. They are still long and drawn out, they just aren't as severe as the withdrawal from a full agonist. I'm not doing what a lot of people do and just talking random shit; I've kicked heroin, methadone, and bupe. I know the differences.

In my opinion, there's nothing bad about being incorrect here or there. Refusing to admit it can be a problem though. Just trust me that an acetyl group is not a double bond (although it contains one, it is much more than that), please. I posted a picture, you can look it up on google or wikipedia or in a chemistry book or wherever you wish.

Thank you.

 

[ARCHANGEL21]

You are correct Chimpo as of Wikipedia.......

 

[Mr Blonde]

^

At least until one of the mischievous OD'ers goes and changes it now.

 

[Ham-milton]

You are looking up incorrect information, and I dont care to argue with you. If you dont understand where there is a double bond in heroin, then I guess do some research. Your post was flaming, and I will not speak to you until it is dealt with. You are rude and presented yourself quite like a jerk to other members. Again, a half-life, in scientific terms, means the exact half point where an element is inactive. But what does that have to do with what were all talking about? Some people here think that half life of a drug defines its potency or how withdrawals occur. That information is incorrect and ive defined myself several times, with a few people saying the same thing I have. As far as the vomit you spewed on your last paragraph, it doesn't really warrant a response. I did not leave bad information and I think the mature thing you could of done was produce constructive criticism if you disagreed with something. Having said all of this, I don't want a response from you, because I now lack respect for what I thought you were. I am pretty glad you are no longer a moderator, because I may of just said "The hell with this site..."

What the hell are you talking about? A double bond in heroin not present in morphine? No such thing. There's an entire acetyl group present, but JC has been entirely right. There is a double bond present in an acetyl group, but that's a moot point when it's the entire group that's responsible for the differences.

 

[bingey]

^
So ham what do you think on the Wd / half-life question

oh and i noticed someone was talking about the intensity of thge withdrawals , i thought we were talking about the duration.

 

[Unknown]

OK, we can discuss this civilly.

An acetyl group is not a double bond. I posted a picture of it above. In the case of morphine, instead of the hydrogen in the 3 and 6 positions, its a carbonyl attached to a methyl group. Diacetyl means that there are two of them, once again in the 3 and 6 positions. Diacetyl =/= double bond. A double bond is called an "alkene."

And the reason why bupe's withdrawals are not as bad is because its a partial mu agonist. They are still long and drawn out, they just aren't as severe as the withdrawal from a full agonist. I'm not doing what a lot of people do and just talking random shit; I've kicked heroin, methadone, and bupe. I know the differences.

In my opinion, there's nothing bad about being incorrect here or there. Refusing to admit it can be a problem though. Just trust me that an acetyl group is not a double bond (although it contains one, it is much more than that), please. I posted a picture, you can look it up on google or wikipedia or in a chemistry book or wherever you wish.

Thank you.

The diacetyl group, according to my reading, is a double bond. The DIacetyl group allows the morphine to past the BBB easily. If my source is incorrect, then its on my source, not me. As far as YOUR comparison with bupe and other full mu agonists, it sounds like you are agreeing with me. Despite what the half life of the drugs are, it still matters on the potency of the mu and k agonist, and wither its full or partial. Notice that half life doesn't play in role in this yet. Half life may correlate with the strength of the drug, BUT its half life, by itself, isn't the reasoning of withdrawal periods and how bad they are.

 

[Unknown]

What the hell are you talking about? A double bond in heroin not present in morphine? No such thing. There's an entire acetyl group present, but JC has been entirely right. There is a double bond present in an acetyl group, but that's a moot point when it's the entire group that's responsible for the differences.

I don't even understand why were still talking about H. I brought it up to explain why H and morphine are essentially the same, with really only a minor difference on the acetyl group. I was talking about the double bond present in the acetyl group, and you are correct, this is a moot point and I don't care to discuss it anyone.

I'm starting to feel that were all talking about the same thing, and this is dumb. I never said anyone was wrong. I think this has become some big misunderstanding.

 

[johanneschimpo]

All you have to do is do a google search on the words "acetyl group" - you shall see it is not a double bond, its a WHOLE functional group. There is no "minor difference in the acetyl group" between morphine and heroin, because morphine does hot have an acetyl group! Please, read a basic organic chemistry book.
And half life is exactly linked to how long withdrawals last. The longer its in your body, the longer its going to take to exit your body (withdrawals). Its a fact.
I accept your apology.

 

[Ham-milton]

The diacetyl group, according to my reading, is a double bond. The DIacetyl group allows the morphine to past the BBB easily. If my source is incorrect, then its on my source, not me. As far as YOUR comparison with bupe and other full mu agonists, it sounds like you are agreeing with me. Despite what the half life of the drugs are, it still matters on the potency of the mu and k agonist, and wither its full or partial. Notice that half life doesn't play in role in this yet. Half life may correlate with the strength of the drug, BUT its half life, by itself, isn't the reasoning of withdrawal periods and how bad they are.

Just google what an acetyl group is. There's no such thing as a "diacetyl" group. There are two acetyl groups on the 3 and 6 carbons of morphine to make heroin. Hence "3,6-diacetylmorphine." It's a hell of a lot more than an alkene- which it doesn't even contain. There's an oxygen double bonded to a carbon, with a single bond to a carbon. The "R" group (on the other side of the C=O carbon) is an oxygen in the case of heroin.

What's going on at kappa matters not at all for withdrawals, or if it does, matters so little that you won't be able to tell the difference.

Half life determines how long the withdrawals will last. A drug with a long half life will produce a longer. Like JC said above, it's all about how long it stays in the body.

 

[bingey]

^
i think the kappas stuff affects withdrawals

when you withdrawal from subutex you go manic/psychotic , very suicidal and deluded

very different withdrawal than from the traditional opiates , it has to do with the kappa agonism that gives subutex it's anti-depressant quialities

 

[Unknown]

Just google what an acetyl group is. There's no such thing as a "diacetyl" group. There are two acetyl groups on the 3 and 6 carbons of morphine to make heroin. Hence "3,6-diacetylmorphine." It's a hell of a lot more than an alkene- which it doesn't even contain. There's an oxygen double bonded to a carbon, with a single bond to a carbon. The "R" group (on the other side of the C=O carbon) is an oxygen in the case of heroin.

Were talking about the same double bond, and this has become a broken record conversation. Also, di means two, and when I said diacetyl, i meant the same as two acetyl groups. Im done talking about H because its pointless to the topic.

What's going on at kappa matters not at all for withdrawals, or if it does, matters so little that you won't be able to tell the difference.

Half life determines how long the withdrawals will last. A drug with a long half life will produce a longer. Like JC said above, it's all about how long it stays in the body.

So your saying: The mu, kappa, and other opiod receptors have NO play in the length and severity of withdrawals? Once the drugs are out of my system, lets say methadone, then I sould be baseline (no withdrawal, no tolerance, completely normal)? This is what I hear when you and JC explain yourselves.

Geeze, methadone has up to a 120 day half life, according to some members on BL.

JC: I never apoligized, as I have nothing to be sorry for. Please do yourself a favor and learn some basic communication skills. Maybe you won't come off as rude and egoistic.

 

[Unknown]

^
i think the kappas stuff affects withdrawals

when you withdrawal from subutex you go manic/psychotic , very suicidal and deluded

very different withdrawal than from the traditional opiates , it has to do with the kappa agonism that gives subutex it's anti-depressant quialities

The Kappa receptor has physical dependance characteristics to it. Suboxone is a full/partial kappa agonist, meaning it hits the disphoria, CNS, and dependance aspects of the K receptor. Thats why those side effects are possible, and suboxone has anti depressant potential.

 

[sonic]

^ Actually, buprenorphine does have long lasting withdrawal effects although they might not be severe, it depends on the person. The severity might not be as bad as methadone, but the duration of "acute" buprenorphine withdrawal can be up to a few weeks. There does seem to be a correlation between the half life of a given opiate or active metabolite and the duration of potential withdrawal effects.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ Thank you for backing that up sonic.

Geeze, methadone has up to a 120 day half life, according to some members on BL.

I really hope you're kidding. Divide that by number by 120 and I believe you. I really, really hope you are joking when you say methadone has a 120 day half-life. If not, at least everyone will now know not to take any advice from you.

ODers: If anyone needs any solid, true advice, please PM me (or anyone else you trust), I worry about the misinformation that is spread around OD at times; I just don't want anybody to get hurt, I just lost my best friend less than a week ago.