I Like to Draw Pictures of Random Molecules

[sekio]

"Myrcene analogs" have lovely scents (geraniol, nerol, linalool etc), but aren't drugs as far as I know. The only reason myrcene crosses the BBB is because it's essentially turpentine, it's super fat soluble... doesn't mean it has any strong activity.

Like others have said, most drug discovery in this day and age is directed, not purely serendipity-based. The "hit rate" for coming up with workable drugs for a particular need from random atom-smashing is pretty much nil. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I think you need to clarify what exactly you're trying to say here. "I have a hunch that compounds derived from XYZ will be active some way" is not really how this works and isn't ground for running around shouting Eureka.

 

[ShaggyFin]

On average, bk-phenethylamines tend to be less potent and more adrenergic than their parent compounds. There hasn't been much of a case to be made for any beta-ketone being superior to its parent compound (perhaps with the exception of mephedrone, but only because it lacks the gross neurotoxicity of 4-methyl-amphetamine).

ebola

I have a theory about beta ketones, I think there has to be a way to unlock them, so that they are active simply by smelling them. Like how cats get high on catnip (absorption, inhalation etc), but for humans.

Imagine if the store could sell you a gas dispensing mask that would make you trip while it was on, then stop when you took it off. Helium and/or Acetone could be the key. Like, a canister that has bk-xxxx in water and a tank of helium underneath. The helium is bubbled through the water creating a release of aromatic bk-xxxx with the helium. Maybe some kind of helium/oxygen mixture as long as that won't cause a reaction with whatever the xxxx is. There just needs to be a bk liquid so that it is ready to go airborne as particles.

Or even like a bk-xxxx hooka pen with no heat just air flow, where you put a puck in and it blows stuff out for you to breath in, maybe even just a vicks thing for your nose.

 

[ShaggyFin]

You present a variety of compounds with little mutual relation in terms of structure or activity I'm not sure what constitutes this "new class" of compounds you think is emerging. This conversation could be enriched if you were to elaborate on the rationale behind what you're doing.

ebola

Give me a little while, I apologize. I understand that everyone here is living a real life, and when they read something they expect it to be fully formed. Call this a "Hunch" because I won't call it an educated guess. I am under-educated and under-furnished, but I read a LOT and I have been thinking about and researching things around this since I was 14 (I am 22 now).

So sometimes I may be a little off about this stuff, but I am coming at it from a COMPLETELY different perspective than anyone that decided to traditionally educate themselves about this in any way. I have no organic chemistry degree, but I have been reading and trying to work out how what everything in Pihkal and Tihkal mean since I was 14, and I have a pretty good understanding at this point (compared to most people that I have met).

I am getting an Organic Chemistry 1 and a regular chemistry book, as well as reaction guides. So over the next few years I will use that knowledge and my past experience as a base.

Rose isolates (as well as a few other plant materials) and Myrcene will be the main compounds in the "New Class". Mainly Myrcene and Damascone will be the back bones of EVERYTHING.

I want to combine Myrcene with Damascone and see what happens. I assume this will create an extremely aromatic compound. Then based on what I have broken and added at that point, I will start adding and tearing more of the structure apart (using some of the things listed) and we will have a new family

 

[ShaggyFin]

"Myrcene analogs" have lovely scents (geraniol, nerol, linalool etc), but aren't drugs as far as I know. The only reason myrcene crosses the BBB is because it's essentially turpentine, it's super fat soluble... doesn't mean it has any strong activity.

Like others have said, most drug discovery in this day and age is directed, not purely serendipity-based. The "hit rate" for coming up with workable drugs for a particular need from random atom-smashing is pretty much nil. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I think you need to clarify what exactly you're trying to say here. "I have a hunch that compounds derived from XYZ will be active some way" is not really how this works and isn't ground for running around shouting Eureka.

Sure, Myrcene and it's little tweaks don't do much for anyone. But slap a DMT molecule on there, and things might change.

Also, I have been toying with the idea of "Drugs that are active through room temperature vapor inhalation" a "Sublime drug" or "a Smell that can get you high". Human pheromones may even come into play.

I just found/realized another key player in the family, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

 

[ebola?]

Mainly Myrcene and Damascone will be the back bones of EVERYTHING.

Okay. So I can now see what said hunch is, but I don't see the logic that could underlie it.

I want to combine Myrcene with Damascone and see what happens. I assume this will create an extremely aromatic compound.

I know this is not what you meant, but please remember that in chemistry, aromaticity means something other than its common meaning, something very specific. Aromaticity is the presence of delocalization of electrons in a functional group, among different nuclei. You commonly see this with hydrocarbon rings with alternating double and single bonds, and they cause the functional group to be more planar.

ebola

 

[ebola?]

I have a theory about beta ketones, I think there has to be a way to unlock them, so that they are active simply by smelling them.

I see no basis for this being plausible, and I think that any according personal experience you've had can be explained by classical conditioning.

ebola

 

[ShaggyFin]

Okay. So I can now see what said hunch is, but I don't see the logic that could underlie it.





I know this is not what you meant, but please remember that in chemistry, aromaticity means something other than its common meaning, something very specific. Aromaticity is the presence of delocalization of electrons in a functional group, among different nuclei. You commonly see this with hydrocarbon rings with alternating double and single bonds, and they cause the functional group to be more planar.

ebola

There is no logic, other than the fact that Damascone is basically a form of acetone, and Myrcene is extremely good at crossing the blood brain barrier. Other than that, they both have smells. That's it.

I apologize, when I said aromatic I just mean I want it to have some sublime qualities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform



Chloroform + (b or a not sure)-Damascone + Lye = Stable compound if I am not mistaken. With plenty of room for attachment.

If it works and has not been done before, I call it "Chloroscone"

Also just found this: 4-Acetoxy-b-Damascone


And according to a perfume ingredients supplier, these exist.
3-hydroxy-.BETA.-damascone, 3-hydroxydihydro-.BETA.-damascone

And perfume rules (no idea who makes those rules) say that Damascones can make up no more than .1% of the perfume. So making these Myrcene compounds could actually be a loophole for fragrance makers. And this family might be considered designer perfumes and not designer drugs, LOL. This could revolutionize the perfume industry.

Once I do a little more reading, I am going to put something together here with Damascone too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Hydroxytryptophan


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-DOPA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophane


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_amide


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzaldehyde


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamaldehyde


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutyl_acetate

 

[ShaggyFin]

I see no basis for this being plausible, and I think that any according personal experience you've had can be explained by classical conditioning.

ebola

I am not saying that I have experienced this. I have never tried it. They have yet to be "Unlocked", I think that MeOH and things like Myrcene could be the key to unlocking it though.

 

[sekio]

I have a theory about beta ketones, I think there has to be a way to unlock them, so that they are active simply by smelling them. Like how cats get high on catnip (absorption, inhalation etc), but for humans.

The reason cats are effected by the volatiles in catnip is because they are analogues of odorants in cat urine that activate the vomeronasal organ, not because they are magical beta ketones.

In fact most of these "ketones" are absorbed into the body and circulation and even brain quite well, it's just that they have no effect at most of the receptors responsible for altering concsiousness.

Acetone-aldol condensation products are usually fragrance compounds anyway. You can huff damascenone all you like but it won't get you stoned.

I'm going to close this since it seems to be going nowhere fast.

 

[ShaggyFin]

The reason cats are effected by the volatiles in catnip is because they are analogues of odorants in cat urine that activate the vomeronasal organ, not because they are magical beta ketones.

In fact most of these "ketones" are absorbed into the body and circulation and even brain quite well, it's just that they have no effect at most of the receptors responsible for altering concsiousness.

Acetone-aldol condensation products are usually fragrance compounds anyway. You can huff damascenone all you like but it won't get you stoned.

I'm going to close this since it seems to be going nowhere fast.

Damascone + Chloroform + Lye = "Huff" that

 

[sekio]

I forgot to close this thread, silly me.

Dichlorocarbene addition products of damascenone would be gnarly, I'd rather not huff them.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

Sure, Myrcene and it's little tweaks don't do much for anyone. But slap a DMT molecule on there, and things might change.

It's not anywhere near the simple unfortunately. 'Slapping' a DMT molecule onto another chemical wouldn't make that chemical a psychoactive drug perse. It all depends on many factors, not just what one part of a molecule has known activity. Also, think about this - what if you combined two drugs? What if you too DMT and 'slapped' it onto Morphine? What would happen then? Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Also, I have been toying with the idea of "Drugs that are active through room temperature vapor inhalation" a "Sublime drug" or "a Smell that can get you high". Human pheromones may even come into play.

I just found/realized another key player in the family, I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Methanol is not a key player in human biology. Methanol is quite toxic and while it DOES have sedative effects - ingesting incredibly low amounts (I believe even as low as 20 mL) can be fatal. Do not ingest Methanol. It WILL kill you.

 

[ShaggyFin]

It's not anywhere near the simple unfortunately. 'Slapping' a DMT molecule onto another chemical wouldn't make that chemical a psychoactive drug perse. It all depends on many factors, not just what one part of a molecule has known activity. Also, think about this - what if you combined two drugs? What if you too DMT and 'slapped' it onto Morphine? What would happen then? Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Methanol is not a key player in human biology. Methanol is quite toxic and while it DOES have sedative effects - ingesting incredibly low amounts (I believe even as low as 20 mL) can be fatal. Do not ingest Methanol. It WILL kill you.

I have actually read of C30-NBOMe, which is just 2 drugs slapped together. And the rest of the NBOMe series too if I am not mistaken, it's just Mescaline on 2c-x's right? I'm not using that to qualify a morphine DMT combo, but that doesn't mean Myrcene and Damascone can't change the game.

And even if I don't make a drug, this WILL make a perfume. And that is just as valuable to the world.

I didn't mean methanol was a key player in Human biology, I just meant now I can make MeO forms of these things. I know about methanol as a thing on the planet, but I never new it was MeOH, I just never looked at what it was.

 

[sekio]

There is no logic, other than the fact that Damascone is basically a form of acetone, and Myrcene is extremely good at crossing the blood brain barrier. Other than that, they both have smells. That's it.

There are lots of other chemicals that fulfill those criteria as well. Not sure why those stick out at you. 2-pentanone is a fat solubler acetone anlogue but I don't see anyone claiming it's a revolution in drugs/perfume.

Chloroform + (b or a not sure)-Damascone + Lye = Stable compound if I am not mistaken. With plenty of room for attachment.

If it works and has not been done before, I call it "Chloroscone"

If you can't provide a structure and reaction pathway (better still look at the literature and find someone who has done this before), this is meaningless masturbation. More importantly, if this is just on paper or in your head or in a simulation of any sort, there is absolutely no guarantee it will actually happen in your flask in a lab unless you try it first and characterise the products.

And perfume rules (no idea who makes those rules) say that Damascones can make up no more than .1% of the perfume.

... because it has such a low detection threshold, and anything above that would overpower everything else in the perfume. Same with some sulfide compounds and other strong odorants. These are rules of thumb, not some sort of legal restriction.

I have actually read of C30-NBOMe, which is just 2 drugs slapped together. And the rest of the NBOMe series too if I am not mistaken, it's just Mescaline on 2c-x's right? I'm not using that to qualify a morphine DMT combo, but that doesn't mean Myrcene and Damascone can't change the game.

C30-NBOMe and the others are not "two drugs slapped together", they are modifications of phenethylamines which have a group that makes them bind better to the 5ht2a receptor. It's not "mescaline on a 2cx" because it's substituted with a benzyl group (1 carbon + phenyl ring) rather than a phenethylamine (2 carbons + phenyl ring, like mescaline).

At the same time, there is nothing that points to damascenone or myrcene being promising leads for drug development. Drugs like the NBOMe series and the synthetic cannabinoids were derived from a compound that had weak activity of the type that scientists were looking for, and many derivatives were characterised (N-benzyl, N-2-methoxybenzyl, N-3-methoxybenzyl etc) to find those that had the best activity. If you start with a compound that has no activity at your target then you're not really guaranteed anything.

You should really get a solid foundation of organic chemistry before you go around thinking you can do whatever synthesis work you desire. There's really more art to this than mixing reagents A, B, C, and you make new compound D.

More importantly, we're not a perfume design conglomerate, we're a drug harm reduction board... I don't see how this relates. I can however tell you to give some of the pages at Leffingwell and Givaudan a look. The field of synthetic odorants is relatively well covered, especially in today's age of chiral gas chromatography and NMR... people have gas chromatographs that pipe the vapours to your nose, for instance, so you can smell pure isolated compounds. Very cool.

 

[ShaggyFin]

C30-NBOMe and the others are not "two drugs slapped together", they are modifications of phenethylamines which have a group that makes them bind better to the 5ht2a receptor. It's not "mescaline on a 2cx" because it's substituted with a benzyl group (1 carbon + phenyl ring) rather than a phenethylamine (2 carbons + phenyl ring, like mescaline).

Ok. Well again, I apologize.

I am not saying to slap drugs together, or that we can.

But to me, it sure looks like I can put a few of these things together, and the same basic fragrant structure will remain. Like with the Chloroscone combo, that would be something like Chlorobutanol I am pretty sure. And from there you have plenty of room to attach things. And even if that doesn't lead to desired compounds, we could start another branch using Cinnamaldehyde (If I am not mistaken), which would open up a whole slew of opportunities to attach molecules and design fragrances.

If that doesn't work, something can probably be made with that 4-Acetoxy form, or with the Methanol.

There is an ENTIRE realm of possibility here. And, there is both a-Damascone and b-Damascone.

This could definitely be helpful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allyl_hexanoate

'

There are lots of other chemicals that fulfill those criteria as well. Not sure why those stick out at you. 2-pentanone is a fat solubler acetone anlogue but I don't see anyone claiming it's a revolution in drugs/perfume.

Myrcene sticks out because I use it to potentiate my Marijuana. Damascone stands out because it just kept coming up in my Beta Ketone searches.

I never claimed a "Revolution" in drugs, just a new family. And it's only a revolution in fragrance because we can make micro available forms of Damascone that can meet and be under the .1% criteria, and set new standards. As well as compounds that could effect the senses in ways never before seen in a perfume.

 

[sekio]

Now that this is established as wholly irrelevant to drugs, it's closing merging time.

Myrcene sticks out because I use it to potentiate my Marijuana.

As someone who works with the stuff (to make terpenes ), I assure you this is 100% placebo. But, that's for another publication.

But to me, it sure looks like I can put a few of these things together, and the same basic fragrant structure will remain. Like with the Chloroscone combo, that would be something like Chlorobutanol I am pretty sure. And from there you have plenty of room to attach things. And even if that doesn't lead to desired compounds, we could start another branch using Cinnamaldehyde (If I am not mistaken), which would open up a whole slew of opportunities to attach molecules and design fragrances.

The problem you'll quickly run into is: the bigger the molecule, the heavier and less volatile it is. Especially if it has any polar functionality or relatively heavy halogen atoms. Once you get to ~25 carbons then all bets are off regarding volatility, chances are it will only be slightly volatile at room temp. Even stuff like the freebase of 2CC-NBOMe is solid. So trying to get any sort of prodrug for a psychoactive to be volatile is a losing game. Bigger ain't always better with volatiles.

Also, volatility does not correlate with odor any more it does with, say, UV absorbancy or any other characteristic of a chemical. There can be intensely scented steroid molecules which just have a really, really low detection threshold, or very volatile compounds that don't smell all that strong compared to others. (Most terpenes e.g. myrcene are like this when you compare them to the highly active odorants like damascenone).

Curiously, amphetamine used to be administered this way (as a freebase it exists as a volatile, stinky, cat-pee-and-fish odor liquid) adsorbed onto cotton, as Benzedrex. The Vicks inhalers do this too with laevomethamphetamine (whose freebase is also a liquid too).

On a fragrance sort of vibe here, check out this table of esters (pdf). Odor chemistry is wonderfully complex.

 

[ShaggyFin]

Now that this is established as wholly irrelevant to drugs, it's closing merging time.



As someone who works with the stuff (to make terpenes ), I assure you this is 100% placebo. But, that's for another publication.



The problem you'll quickly run into is: the bigger the molecule, the heavier and less volatile it is. Especially if it has any polar functionality or relatively heavy halogen atoms. Once you get to ~25 carbons then all bets are off regarding volatility, chances are it will only be slightly volatile at room temp. Even stuff like the freebase of 2CC-NBOMe is solid. So trying to get any sort of prodrug for a psychoactive to be volatile is a losing game. Bigger ain't always better with volatiles.

Also, volatility does not correlate with odor any more it does with, say, UV absorbancy or any other characteristic of a chemical. There can be intensely scented steroid molecules which just have a really, really low detection threshold, or very volatile compounds that don't smell all that strong compared to others. (Most terpenes e.g. myrcene are like this when you compare them to the highly active odorants like damascenone).

Curiously, amphetamine used to be administered this way (as a freebase it exists as a volatile, stinky, cat-pee-and-fish odor liquid) adsorbed onto cotton, as Benzedrex. The Vicks inhalers do this too with laevomethamphetamine (whose freebase is also a liquid too).

On a fragrance sort of vibe here, check out this table of esters (pdf). Odor chemistry is wonderfully complex.

It seems that Phenethylamine would be available for attachment then, only 8 carbons. And Methanol or Chloroform, Isopropyls will too.

I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

And on the Myrcene, I have tried it and it's not just a maybe, it's full blow higher for sure. If it's placebo, it's a DAMN good placebo.

 

[sekio]

If you haven't run any blind tests, you can't for sure say it's placebo.

The other issue you're likely to run into with phenethylamine derivatives (really most amines): they smell like a selection of shit, stale fish, decaying fish, fermented urine, rotting meat, ammonia, and the like - in general they are better off avoided as, er, 'body notes' of fragrances. The amine group tends to ruin things in the odor department.

Leffingwell for instance talks about the enantiomers of amphetamine being "musty" and "fecal" smelling. Wonderful.

 

[ShaggyFin]

If you haven't run any blind tests, you can't for sure say it's placebo.

I have read about it outside of the plant I tried, and without extractions. They say Mangoes have Myrcene and do the same thing.

I eventually plan on doing tests, but as I said before, I am under-furnished to do such things.

And thank you for this
http://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/table-of-esters-and-their-smells-v2.pdf

 

[ShaggyFin]

Leffingwell for instance talks about the enantiomers of amphetamine being "musty" and "fecal" smelling. Wonderful.

I honestly do not care for Amphetamines, my hopes are to hopefully make one or two MeO PEAs that are something like Ecstasy or Dissociatives, and then take a step back and let others do that field of continuation.

I want to make something MUCH more subtle, maybe like some form of Tropane or a Cannabinoid, or even a Benzo if possible. Maybe some kind of soft trip, or sleeping aid, or Nootropic. Caffeine could have applications as well in the modern world.

And I want to maybe explore DXM, it seems like it wants someone to take a look at it.

I am VERY unlearned in organic chemistry, my "expertise" from the past (if you can call it that) is more on that "taking and comparing" side of drugs. I ordered some books so I will be able to draw other molecules soon. But unless we can Isomerize this stuff, or Decarboxalyze it, or whatever. All I know that is possible is to attach it to a Chloroform, because after Ana Nicole smith died I read about Chlorobutanol (the stuff that killed her from OD, it's a Barbiturate I believe) and making that is the same as making this.

Original Molecule: Dramascone

So, unless someone has made this molecule before, I invented the first Drug (probably active because of the Chloroform) from Rose essence. And I hope to create more soon that aren't based on attaching a Chloroform molecule.


I call it (unless someone out there already made this one, because it does seem to simple to have not been made)
Chloroscone
Damascone + Chloroform + Lye = Chloroscone
(I messed up a tiny bit on the drawing on one of the little bottom arm things, but it's mostly right)

And correct me if I am wrong, but does this not look like with a few rings completed (either side of the Cl's, plus a few tiny additions) it could be an opiate?