HPPD, should one continue to use psychedelics if he/she is not bothered by symptoms?

[phuckingnutz]

I "suffer" sometimes with visual disturbances after particularly large doses of DMT...I can see hieroglyphs and patterns on things or in the air... personally, I like that sort of thing.
My disturbances don't qualify as true HPPD tho, as I only have visuals without the psychological stuff.

It seems to me, however, that you are only searching for the answer that YOU want to hear and then get irritated when you don't get the answer you want or expect...instead of actual feedback...just my humble opinion.
The posting title indicates you're not bothered by this...if so, what's the issue?

 

[al-laddin]

Mine just looks like tv static accompanied by a faint tinnitus - but it's not unbearable. I get distortions, wiggles, negative after images, slight halo's, blepharospasm (resulting in temporary blindness) and if I stare at an object for longer than 20 seconds, the background colour bleeds over it and it disappears. I find it all very amusing, the effects only occur when I keep my eyes still for a moment.

I often wonder how common these kinds of effects are.

The static and tinnitus predates my drug use, however I don't recall when they other effects started.

That's why I was wondering how you would differentiate between them, personally I wouldn't claim I have HPPD. I much prefer the visual snow label

I've never noticed any substances to exacerbate the effects once it has left my system.

Luckily the more I discuss this with guys like you the more I realize that these effects are natural, or at least most of them. I do believe hallucinogens, especially psychedelics increase them, however. You just rekindled some memories of mine. As a child I used to make objects disappear by staring for a long period of time! I also used to try and stare as long as possible without blinking to create a pseudo visually psychedelic state. However in the defense of HPPD, one particularly startling find is the way the eyes behave when adjusting to light in individuals who claim to have residual visual effects from past use. As for the blepherospasms, can you elaborate on what that's like?

 

[al-laddin]

I "suffer" sometimes with visual disturbances after particularly large doses of DMT...I can see hieroglyphs and patterns on things or in the air... personally, I like that sort of thing.
My disturbances don't qualify as true HPPD tho, as I only have visuals without the psychological stuff.

It seems to me, however, that you are only searching for the answer that YOU want to hear and then get irritated when you don't get the answer you want or expect...instead of actual feedback...just my humble opinion.
The posting title indicates you're not bothered by this...if so, what's the issue?

Ok, so it specifally indicates in the DSM IV that the definition of HPPD is visual only. Just because psychological effects often exist co-morbidly with hPPD does not make DP/DR, anxiety etc. HPPD. In fact during the initial onset of my HPPD 18 years ago I sufferef from the co-morbid symptoms. They no longer plague me now. However with my recent drug use my HPPD SOLELY increased.

Sure I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR...."go ahead use whatever drugs you want, live it up, it wont get worse". I am hoping perhaps that there are more people who have HPPD and it does not increase after a certain point. I know of one person who has experienced this. He uses drugs and his HPPD is there but doesn't get any worse. Anyway, if you go back and read some of the other posts in this thread that I made you will find that Im simply trying to find out form others experience which drugs exacerbate HPPD and which do not. I have been told by yet another person suffering from HPPD(from another forum) that phenethylamines and LSD make his worse and tryptamines seem to have no effect on it.

WHats the issue? this^ I want to know what people are experiencing, to relate my experience to others and learn and educate. The point is harm reduction and being able to make choices instead of using psychedelics blindly and suffering consequences that may be avoided by simply choosing a compound which is less "harmful" in regards to HPPD

Can you please specify where it is that I displayed that I was irritated by answers "that I didn't want to hear". Bullshit, rude one liners don't count, because they are akin to someone driving by you on the street, yelling an obscenity and continuing to drive off. You know what scratch that, its petty and off topic, if youre not interested in discussing this topic with me because I may not agree with your answers then don't dicuss it . Its simple. But I do appreciate your input on the high dose DMT causing residual effects, as that complicates the tryptamine theory.

 

[phuckingnutz]

. Anyway my point that it IS bothersome. It IS distracting but Im not going to complain about it because in my opinion HPPD IS NOT THAT BAD. I would rather have this than say suffer from cluster headaches or diabetes or numerous other illnesses. I believe others are freaked out and troubled by this because it hits the anxiety switch with them.

HPPD, should one continue to use psychedelics if he/she is "not bothered" by symptoms?

It's "bothersome", it's "distracting", but it's "not that bad", "I'm not going to complain"...Uh HUH.

Oh, YES, you should continue using if you're "not bothered" by your symptoms.

and, NO, you should NOT use anymore if your symptoms are "bothersome" or "distracting".

Maybe "irritated" was too strong a word...it still seems like you're looking for a specific answer and the ambiguity of your statements is confusing...or maybe it's just my HPPD fucking with me.

 

[al-laddin]

I thought that I articulated myself fairly well. Maybe not. Lets start with a clean slate man. I apologize if I came off like a dick, but I just want to be clear that I do have HPPD symptoms , I would like to continue using and would like to discuss the safest route of doing so, if there even is one. I don't feel like I was complaining. Again whatever symptoms I mention are for the sake of discussion and knowledge.

 

[isthisincognito]

^ I didn't think you came off like a dick at any point, I wouldn't worry too much.

Personally, I described my symptoms, but whether that's HPPD I'm not sure so ymmv.

I don't really use Phenethylamines, I tried 25i-NBOMe, 25c-NBOMe and 25b-NBOMe they didn't really affect me. The latter two I only tried once, 25i-NBOMe I tried from 3 vendors and they didn't really do much anything for me except some minor body load.

I use LSD semi-regularly (4-6 times a year perhaps) and the experience is always awesome, but they've never caused any long term effects.

Tryptamines I LOVE and again they've never caused any long term increases.

I wouldn't jump in at the deep end with anything, I'd start low until you're comfortable and work up. Don't be ever be a hero.

Although I would like to stress that with some drugs, dosing too low can lead to a situation where the negative's manifest without the positives, and result in the unpleasant experience - In essence what I'm saying is find your dose range and dose on the lower side. Take any and all precautions you deem necessary.

Just my $0.02

 

[pmoseman]

Beautifully said! Thanks for your phenomenal contribution to the thread.

HPPD stands for Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder.

If you want to talk about Hallucinogen Persisting Perception, not the disorder, then call it HPP.

 

[al-laddin]

Pmoseman, that's MUCH better man! And I completely agree, HPP it is!

Isthisincognito, Yeah its funny you say that, the last time I took Lucy I took a quarter of a botter and I just felt mentally and physically restless...it was very uncomfortable. I can take very low muchrooms doses and usually feel nice but there have been a few times where I got restless on low doses of psilly also

 

[Solipsis]

Be careful not to mix up interrelated reactions to drugs or after-effects, such as HPPD, derealisation, depersonalisation, psychosis and flashbacks.

HPPD should IMO be considered as almost strictly the sensory side (hence the Perception in the term HPPD) of psychedelic effects that may linger (hence the Persistance in the term HPPD) and become troublesome or disruptive. After having used psychedelics many people notice a lot more visual effects including artefacts or awareness of our biological visual processing faculties, this is what Sekio suggested in his post #2. In most cases it either goes away after a while or one gets so used to it that it might as well be considered gone as a noticeable distortive effect.
However where I disagree with Sekio is that to start calling it actual HPPD, which is a disorder, the effects must produce functional or experiential difficulties in a subject to warrant that term. Because we only start calling something a disorder if it affects us enough in our lives, not when it is just noticed casually as an enhanced feature of sorts. It seems in his response this is not taken into consideration.

There are a multitude of other possible problems that may not only arise from psychedelic use but also congenital / genetic causes and experiences that can exacerbate or trigger them. Besides our senses (sight, hearing, etc) we also have our sense of self and sense of reality for example. Likewise, distortions and unhealthy (or lacking) ways in which these aspects of our being can become integrated are dangers for everyone, but especially people using psychedelics who intentionally influence and distort these aspects for various reasons. When we cannot cope anymore with such changes and start reacting to it in pathological ways, we must be very careful.

If you yourself or a healthcare professional helping you determine that you are indeed getting significantly affected by HPPD symptoms or other kinds of mental problems... reduce or better yet cease your use of psychedelics. All of us have to judge whether we are fit to handle the risks and stresses of having our minds warped. Do things like reality checks on yourself, try to calibrate whether you have a steady sober grip on how you see yourself and how you see the world. This sort of analysis mostly involves self-perception: you certainly are not required to "have all the answers", rather it is about whether your judgment is clouded or whether you are sound of mind. There has to be a minimum level of self-acceptance, trust and readiness to face the world.
If there is instead too much ambiguity or if you are entirely uncertain of what to make of it all (your world), then use of psychedelics is especially dangerous since it can worsen this confusion (i.e. literally running / blurring / melding together).

Lastly, some psychedelics may have a bigger propensity to cause HPPD type issues, I think that 2C-I, the NBOMe's and cannabis / cannabinoids are examples of this. And I think LSD should not be underestimated in this respect.

 

[al-laddin]

Be careful not to mix up interrelated reactions to drugs or after-effects, such as HPPD, derealisation, depersonalisation, psychosis and flashbacks.

HPPD should IMO be considered as almost strictly the sensory side (hence the Perception in the term HPPD) of psychedelic effects that may linger (hence the Persistance in the term HPPD) and become troublesome or disruptive. After having used psychedelics many people notice a lot more visual effects including artefacts or awareness of our biological visual processing faculties, this is what Sekio suggested in his post #2. In most cases it either goes away after a while or one gets so used to it that it might as well be considered gone as a noticeable distortive effect.
However where I disagree with Sekio is that to start calling it actual HPPD, which is a disorder, the effects must produce functional or experiential difficulties in a subject to warrant that term. Because we only start calling something a disorder if it affects us enough in our lives, not when it is just noticed casually as an enhanced feature of sorts. It seems in his response this is not taken into consideration.

There are a multitude of other possible problems that may not only arise from psychedelic use but also congenital / genetic causes and experiences that can exacerbate or trigger them. Besides our senses (sight, hearing, etc) we also have our sense of self and sense of reality for example. Likewise, distortions and unhealthy (or lacking) ways in which these aspects of our being can become integrated are dangers for everyone, but especially people using psychedelics who intentionally influence and distort these aspects for various reasons. When we cannot cope anymore with such changes and start reacting to it in pathological ways, we must be very careful.

If you yourself or a healthcare professional helping you determine that you are indeed getting significantly affected by HPPD symptoms or other kinds of mental problems... reduce or better yet cease your use of psychedelics. All of us have to judge whether we are fit to handle the risks and stresses of having our minds warped. Do things like reality checks on yourself, try to calibrate whether you have a steady sober grip on how you see yourself and how you see the world. This sort of analysis mostly involves self-perception: you certainly are not required to "have all the answers", rather it is about whether your judgment is clouded or whether you are sound of mind. There has to be a minimum level of self-acceptance, trust and readiness to face the world.
If there is instead too much ambiguity or if you are entirely uncertain of what to make of it all (your world), then use of psychedelics is especially dangerous since it can worsen this confusion (i.e. literally running / blurring / melding together).

Lastly, some psychedelics may have a bigger propensity to cause HPPD type issues, I think that 2C-I, the NBOMe's and cannabis / cannabinoids are examples of this. And I think LSD should not be underestimated in this respect.

Thank you so much for this response! Now I have a vast amount of questions. Firstly do you think DP/DR is basically that distorted sense of self you speak of? Do you believe that psychedelics "mind manisfesting" qualities are actually a delusion or distortion of true reality/ sense of self and can facilitate an existential crisis and perhaps this type of emotional problem being a type of psychosis. In other words is jusy questioning and being unsure of the very framework of reality post psychedlics a type of psychosis and if so where is one to draw the line. Many people will agree that being a patriotic , hard working Christian conservative is a psychosis.

Yes, I believe people focus too much on HPPD, thinking that its the root of their emotional problems whereas it seems to me that HPPD can exist with simultaneously having emotional problems from past psychedelic use but NOT often the other way around. So if people treat the trauma associated with psychdedelic use the HPPD wont bother them.

VERY GOOD POINT Soipsis, I think that the emotional , existential perception changes are a bit scarier than any other side effects psychedelics posess. Do you believe everyone has a breaking point, or is there a select few that are affetcted easier? What is your stance on psychedelics, are they amedicine/ spiritual tool or on the other side of the spectrum a psychotomimetic ?

 

[Solipsis]

DP/DR, at least depersonalisation is a schizoid effect, it represents a double separation, namely between our actual self and the world and between our actual self and what is called our false self. Sometimes the term ego is used here but that can get confusing. It is not necessarily a problem to present ourself different to others or to the world than we deeply feel to be, but it can be when it gets more extreme. I have heard people talk about always wearing a "mask", and when this becomes more serious people can really identify in a confused way with this mask, while at the same time getting detached or feeling lost. Ultimately they can even start feeling like they lose themselves and sense of self is being killed (by themselves paradoxically, or by certain factors or prosecutors), this heralds the beginning of a psychosis in a lot of cases.
Use of dissociative drugs like ketamine can also temporarily cause schizoid / schizophrenic-like and hebephrebic states it seems, although this is induced and not based on a disintegration hard-wired in the mind. Like drug-induced psychosis, by definition when the effects of the drug and metabolites wear off, the person returns to their former state via homeostasis.

I don't think we can only label the psychedelic state something like a psychosis or only like a spiritual and integrated state. In my opinion and experience there are at least two sides to it, namely desintegration which is also represented in psychosis or schizoid personalities, but also reintegration from a loosened state of being.
I love the teachings of underrated and not that well-known psychologist Dabrowski and his theory of positive desintegration. Which basically explains how a person can go through a developmental cycle (or psychedelic transformation when considering a trip IMO) by first falling apart and then being put back together. Since we are not reintegrating from the same original perspective and have the possibility to benefit from convolutions in our selves getting untangled during the falling apart... this can be all healing, transforming and developing. According to him, there are certain traits which cause some people to go through such cycles more often and more quickly than others. It may be that someone's dynamic nature, the general tendency and speed of developing, or someone's need to recover from getting himself mixed up ... that could lead to more rapid succession of cycles of positive desintegration. I have discussed this with some gifted people who especially resonated with this theory.

Anyway to return to your question about psychedelia and psychosis: I think that a trip can have aspects of desintegration and reintegration. It can have mostly psychotic effects when someone doesn't get enough reintegration, and ends up more fragmented than before the trip(s). A mentally sufficiently healthy person should have enough self-sustaining coherence to pull together fragmented pieces of himself and always return to unity, just like a physically healthy person should be able to heal from wounds. Even when over time there may be scars (physically but also mentally).
(By the way I think this is the fundamental reason why a trip can be both chaotic and show a lot of visual distortion and crazy fantastical effects, but also crystal-clear lucidity and blissful peace. Experiencing those sides may not even be mutually exclusive. They could alternate (even extremely rapidly), and often a trip starts distorted and ends up transparent.)

I think everyone has a breaking point, but not only does pain tolerance and will power vary... also the ease of tripping apparently varies a lot between individuals. Some are able to go through much more intense experiences because they are not affected in a way that deeply confuses their sense of what is possible or real. Other people have trouble keeping fantasy and reality separated (using skepsis but also other reality-checking methods) even without ever using drugs. So you could say it is not fair from the start. But when we take people with a similar ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy and a similar threshold for painful experience, I think that we should see that sooner or later they will both/all break just like people cannot endure an endless amount of torture. Apparently there is a world beyond breaking though, and psychosis is a neat word to designate many such cases... I can't imagine what it is like being trapped in a state where it is a never-ending battle against both an unrestrained, raw painful "being" as well as trying to avoid oblivion. It sounds to me like that is impossibly more complex and horrible even than not wanting to live anymore.
Then again, I must note that it appears there exist also a lot of cases of psychotic breaks where ontological insecurity (the existential dilemma I just described) is not the major issue, and it is mostly getting fragmented and split up in ways that has a person more generally lost and confused.

 

[Dancing Chick]

I used to have HPPD pretty bad. At first I didn't consider it a disorder and actually liked it. It started with diphenhydramine and was continuously etched by more of that, psychedelics, dissociatives, salvia, cannabinoids, and even stimulants.... I got to the point of DR and daily panic attacks, and I started developing all kinds of psychosomatic symptoms from it. I eventually decided enough was enough and re-evaluated my life when I couldn't even take one tiny hit of weed without getting strong patterns, entities in my peripheral vision, words flying around in 3D space, heavy dissociation, and tremors, all of which were constantly present to a lesser degree even while sober. At that point I also stopped using all drugs except weed and alcohol, and then just alcohol.

For the next couple of years I worked on overcoming my anxiety and personal issues, and read everything I could find about HPPD. Without the drugs it faded somewhat eventually (after months), but not all the way. However, what I did is simply learn to avoid it.... Kept my eyes moving. Stopped myself from automatically moving into the "tripping" mindset (mindlessly staring at walls, etc.). Stopped obsessing about how I messed myself up and told myself I would get better, because like all anxiety disorders it's self-perpetuating. Eventually it got to the point where if I looked for the visuals they were there, but otherwise never saw them. I then started smoking weed again in the same mindset and the trend continued.

Just a few months ago I started taking psychedelics again, and haven't noticed any problems at all. In fact, if anything it's just made me more sensitive to them, because the visuals I *do* get get more intense with each trip, but they're still only there when I want them to be, like while tripping. But overall, I seem to be fine.

 

[al-laddin]

DP/DR, at least depersonalisation is a schizoid effect, it represents a double separation, namely between our actual self and the world and between our actual self and what is called our false self. Sometimes the term ego is used here but that can get confusing. It is not necessarily a problem to present ourself different to others or to the world than we deeply feel to be, but it can be when it gets more extreme. I have heard people talk about always wearing a "mask", and when this becomes more serious people can really identify in a confused way with this mask, while at the same time getting detached or feeling lost. Ultimately they can even start feeling like they lose themselves and sense of self is being killed (by themselves paradoxically, or by certain factors or prosecutors), this heralds the beginning of a psychosis in a lot of cases.
Use of dissociative drugs like ketamine can also temporarily cause schizoid / schizophrenic-like and hebephrebic states it seems, although this is induced and not based on a disintegration hard-wired in the mind. Like drug-induced psychosis, by definition when the effects of the drug and metabolites wear off, the person returns to their former state via homeostasis.

I don't think we can only label the psychedelic state something like a psychosis or only like a spiritual and integrated state. In my opinion and experience there are at least two sides to it, namely desintegration which is also represented in psychosis or schizoid personalities, but also reintegration from a loosened state of being.
I love the teachings of underrated and not that well-known psychologist Dabrowski and his theory of positive desintegration. Which basically explains how a person can go through a developmental cycle (or psychedelic transformation when considering a trip IMO) by first falling apart and then being put back together. Since we are not reintegrating from the same original perspective and have the possibility to benefit from convolutions in our selves getting untangled during the falling apart... this can be all healing, transforming and developing. According to him, there are certain traits which cause some people to go through such cycles more often and more quickly than others. It may be that someone's dynamic nature, the general tendency and speed of developing, or someone's need to recover from getting himself mixed up ... that could lead to more rapid succession of cycles of positive desintegration. I have discussed this with some gifted people who especially resonated with this theory.

Anyway to return to your question about psychedelia and psychosis: I think that a trip can have aspects of desintegration and reintegration. It can have mostly psychotic effects when someone doesn't get enough reintegration, and ends up more fragmented than before the trip(s). A mentally sufficiently healthy person should have enough self-sustaining coherence to pull together fragmented pieces of himself and always return to unity, just like a physically healthy person should be able to heal from wounds. Even when over time there may be scars (physically but also mentally).
(By the way I think this is the fundamental reason why a trip can be both chaotic and show a lot of visual distortion and crazy fantastical effects, but also crystal-clear lucidity and blissful peace. Experiencing those sides may not even be mutually exclusive. They could alternate (even extremely rapidly), and often a trip starts distorted and ends up transparent.)

I think everyone has a breaking point, but not only does pain tolerance and will power vary... also the ease of tripping apparently varies a lot between individuals. Some are able to go through much more intense experiences because they are not affected in a way that deeply confuses their sense of what is possible or real. Other people have trouble keeping fantasy and reality separated (using skepsis but also other reality-checking methods) even without ever using drugs. So you could say it is not fair from the start. But when we take people with a similar ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy and a similar threshold for painful experience, I think that we should see that sooner or later they will both/all break just like people cannot endure an endless amount of torture. Apparently there is a world beyond breaking though, and psychosis is a neat word to designate many such cases... I can't imagine what it is like being trapped in a state where it is a never-ending battle against both an unrestrained, raw painful "being" as well as trying to avoid oblivion. It sounds to me like that is impossibly more complex and horrible even than not wanting to live anymore.
Then again, I must note that it appears there exist also a lot of cases of psychotic breaks where ontological insecurity (the existential dilemma I just described) is not the major issue, and it is mostly getting fragmented and split up in ways that has a person more generally lost and confused.

Wow Ive gotten more answers about psychedelics from you than anyone thus far. Its important stuff too...unbias which is rare. My problem is after using psychedelics I have more questions about the universe and I believe it to be a more "magical place" than ever before. It really bends reality and it stays with me, I feel. This worries me a bit. For example I have confirmed psychic abilities, after using psychs. I can do this with decent accuracy above chance. I often have deja vu. Ive had dreams where Ive predicted accidents which were happening simultaneously But as a child I had a vivid imagination and believed in ghosts and things like that. The fact that this isn't "normal" socially worries me. It seems that my belief in and abilities have gotten stronger since using psychedelics. How do you perform reality checks?

 

[al-laddin]

I used to have HPPD pretty bad. At first I didn't consider it a disorder and actually liked it. It started with diphenhydramine and was continuously etched by more of that, psychedelics, dissociatives, salvia, cannabinoids, and even stimulants.... I got to the point of DR and daily panic attacks, and I started developing all kinds of psychosomatic symptoms from it. I eventually decided enough was enough and re-evaluated my life when I couldn't even take one tiny hit of weed without getting strong patterns, entities in my peripheral vision, words flying around in 3D space, heavy dissociation, and tremors, all of which were constantly present to a lesser degree even while sober. At that point I also stopped using all drugs except weed and alcohol, and then just alcohol.

For the next couple of years I worked on overcoming my anxiety and personal issues, and read everything I could find about HPPD. Without the drugs it faded somewhat eventually (after months), but not all the way. However, what I did is simply learn to avoid it.... Kept my eyes moving. Stopped myself from automatically moving into the "tripping" mindset (mindlessly staring at walls, etc.). Stopped obsessing about how I messed myself up and told myself I would get better, because like all anxiety disorders it's self-perpetuating. Eventually it got to the point where if I looked for the visuals they were there, but otherwise never saw them. I then started smoking weed again in the same mindset and the trend continued.

Just a few months ago I started taking psychedelics again, and haven't noticed any problems at all. In fact, if anything it's just made me more sensitive to them, because the visuals I *do* get get more intense with each trip, but they're still only there when I want them to be, like while tripping. But overall, I seem to be fine. My last four weekends have been: 6.5 hits of LSD, 10 hits of LSD + salvia, 5 hits of LSD, and 30 mg of 4-HO-MiPT + lots of nitrous + smoked caapi + DMT. That was last night, and today I woke up feeling fine.

My HPPD story parallels yours! However LSD and 25c seemed to have worsen my visual symptoms recenetly but mushrooms never have. My hppd startd off with 500-700 mics lsd bad trip.

 

[Solipsis]

Wow Ive gotten more answers about psychedelics from you than anyone thus far. Its important stuff too...unbias which is rare. My problem is after using psychedelics I have more questions about the universe and I believe it to be a more "magical place" than ever before. It really bends reality and it stays with me, I feel. This worries me a bit. For example I have confirmed psychic abilities, after using psychs. I can do this with decent accuracy above chance. I often have deja vu. Ive had dreams where Ive predicted accidents which were happening simultaneously But as a child I had a vivid imagination and believed in ghosts and things like that. The fact that this isn't "normal" socially worries me. It seems that my belief in and abilities have gotten stronger since using psychedelics. How do you perform reality checks?

I think that you're already doing em. When I say reality I mean consensus reality or what you call the "socially normal". I am not suggesting we all be sheep and do or believe what our friends and family tell us is real, good or normal... but the other extreme is that our minds go unchecked, which can certainly lead to problems.
Believing in psychic abilities or ghosts is relatively common, even though it is not accepted as confirmed by consensus reality or science. If you don't go much further beyond that, it would seem like harmless superstition, but you can run into other people who are not understanding or accepting of that. (Personally I am very skeptical of those kinds of things but I wouldn't reject you for it as a fellow human being who deserves compassion).
I do think that psychedelics make us more open-minded, but open-mindedness is not inherently a good thing, it can be good but also bad. The good side of it is that it may lead us to be more embracing and compassionate to people and things that are different from us or foreign to us, it can help us with xenophobia and other ways that separate us from others. But the bad side may be that skepticism may become ignored or neglected. Skepticism is a tool for reality checking and I believe we need it to protect ourselves from beliefs that do not deserve our support. Actually I know there are some people (like a friend of mine whom I have a troubled friendship with) who would rather enjoy the magical feeling of believing in all sorts of stuff because it sounds interesting / feels good or would be amazing if it were true. I think that is a slippery slope and our fantasy is enough to have that magic in our lives, but our beliefs should be reserved for things that deserve it. They deserve it by being true or maybe being unverifiable but so good that it can be a helpful and positive thing in our lives and we may give it the benefit of the doubt for the time being. Still in that case the unverifiability should always be remembered.
You may not be in trouble yet, but apparently you are worried - I think that is because of the slippery slope, you are implying as much. If you keep having suggestive experiences that are previously thought to be impossible it will probably seduce you into believing in them. IMO it is best to always consider alternative explanations that may not be as magical, but are at least fitting with our current understanding of the world - the MAIN one being that our minds are powerful things that can produce ideas and images that are not restrained like reality is. On DMT for example I typically experience my own imagination working at apparently near-unlimited capacity. I have envisioned square triangles on it. But that doesn't mean that such a thing makes any sense. The skeptical thing is instead to believe that DMT is extremely powerful and it unlocks our imagination. Which doesn't mean that on DMT I can't envision things that may be true or very beautiful, helpful or therapeutic... but I check and compare those things carefully against what I think is acceptable or maybe possible in a margin.
The danger of believing in everything that is suggested to us is that we lose our grip on reality and start having trouble functioning. For example we may sometimes imagine others being able to hear our thoughts, which is not anymore a harmless superstition in psychic abilities but a common symptom in schizophrenics or psychotics, when we cannot anymore ignore or turn off such an 'effect' it can get very scary and confusing indeed. Such a belief confuses the boundary where we ourselves end and the other person begins. Like many trippers, new age hippies and buddhists, etc at some level I do believe we are all connected and in some sense we are a continuous sea of energy... but I also keep a close eye on having a clearly defined sense of self-containment. I keep tidy and neat that my thoughts and beliefs are part of me and when it is all clear-cut, is not floating somewhere in the world. Actually, I'd rather not believe in it just to be sure and stay healthy! That is, until there is enough evidence for it that is verified by others and we can safely integrate it into our paradigm.
The paranormal may be a fascinating prospect, but don't let it dominate your life and get absorbed by it. It's not worth it, and you can still think about it while tripping or sober and think "well, that's interesting. imagine a world where that would be true!", but even very suggestive abnormal experiences that don't immediately offer another explanation should first be properly verified before you should let it become engrained in your world. You are lead to believe more than you used to primarily because psychedelics are mind-warping. Again, not everything experienced in a trip is by definition false, but in my opinion by default it is an effect of our logical limitations (and with it our skepticism) getting temporarily disabled and messed with. In such a case, there is no discrimination between what makes sense and what does not make sense, we are led to believe any of it may be true. If you think of it like that, do you think what we experience during a trip deserves to be taken at face value?

P.S. Look into mysticism. Learn about what it is, but also importantly what it is not.

Experience magically, think critically.

 

[pmoseman]

Modestly normal experiences can seem unexplainable and other-worldly while on psychedelics.

Reality testing is hypothesizing. Testing a hypothesis requires instruments, organic like your eyes or inorganic like a ruler. The standard organic measuring devices you use are compromised by psychedelics.

When we learn new information our mind integrates that with our version of reality. I know the water heater was "acting funny". This becomes part of our explanations for things.

Known: The water is cold.
Known: Water heating was acting funny.
Hypothesis: Replacing the water heater will provide me with hot water.

Whether or not I am mentally stable would not have any impact on the actual status of the water heater, but my sensation of what hot and cold may feel like or my subjective experience of the water heater "acting funny" could cause me to buy a new water heater, without needing to.

The normal mind is fully capable of modifying your perspective in profound ways and does so without conscious effort. For example one can wear glasses that turn the world upside down or make left to right and your mind will at first become confused but after time the world through those glasses will seem normal to you.

The brain is doing this because each of us perceive the world differently. The brain supplies the connection to reality. What is reality and what is right and wrong then is a bit of a mystery.

It is easy to supplant our reasoning with idealic solutions, ie things just happen by magic. These solutions will grow in complication.

This may not be the greatest example ever but I concentrated on a coin in such a way that I was able to flip 7 heads in a row. In short, I tested whether I could see the side it was going to land on and moved my hand to "catch" the coin tail side up. Letting the coin hit the floor disturbed the phenomena.

Magical thinking is when you decide the logical solution (as above) is never the correct one. There must be some deeper and more complex explanation. I believe the tendency for magical thinking has useful origins but the exaggeration of this mindset arises from psychedelics.

 

[al-laddin]

I think that you're already doing em. When I say reality I mean consensus reality or what you call the "socially normal". I am not suggesting we all be sheep and do or believe what our friends and family tell us is real, good or normal... but the other extreme is that our minds go unchecked, which can certainly lead to problems.
Believing in psychic abilities or ghosts is relatively common, even though it is not accepted as confirmed by consensus reality or science. If you don't go much further beyond that, it would seem like harmless superstition, but you can run into other people who are not understanding or accepting of that. (Personally I am very skeptical of those kinds of things but I wouldn't reject you for it as a fellow human being who deserves compassion).
I do think that psychedelics make us more open-minded, but open-mindedness is not inherently a good thing, it can be good but also bad. The good side of it is that it may lead us to be more embracing and compassionate to people and things that are different from us or foreign to us, it can help us with xenophobia and other ways that separate us from others. But the bad side may be that skepticism may become ignored or neglected. Skepticism is a tool for reality checking and I believe we need it to protect ourselves from beliefs that do not deserve our support. Actually I know there are some people (like a friend of mine whom I have a troubled friendship with) who would rather enjoy the magical feeling of believing in all sorts of stuff because it sounds interesting / feels good or would be amazing if it were true. I think that is a slippery slope and our fantasy is enough to have that magic in our lives, but our beliefs should be reserved for things that deserve it. They deserve it by being true or maybe being unverifiable but so good that it can be a helpful and positive thing in our lives and we may give it the benefit of the doubt for the time being. Still in that case the unverifiability should always be remembered.
You may not be in trouble yet, but apparently you are worried - I think that is because of the slippery slope, you are implying as much. If you keep having suggestive experiences that are previously thought to be impossible it will probably seduce you into believing in them. IMO it is best to always consider alternative explanations that may not be as magical, but are at least fitting with our current understanding of the world - the MAIN one being that our minds are powerful things that can produce ideas and images that are not restrained like reality is. On DMT for example I typically experience my own imagination working at apparently near-unlimited capacity. I have envisioned square triangles on it. But that doesn't mean that such a thing makes any sense. The skeptical thing is instead to believe that DMT is extremely powerful and it unlocks our imagination. Which doesn't mean that on DMT I can't envision things that may be true or very beautiful, helpful or therapeutic... but I check and compare those things carefully against what I think is acceptable or maybe possible in a margin.
The danger of believing in everything that is suggested to us is that we lose our grip on reality and start having trouble functioning. For example we may sometimes imagine others being able to hear our thoughts, which is not anymore a harmless superstition in psychic abilities but a common symptom in schizophrenics or psychotics, when we cannot anymore ignore or turn off such an 'effect' it can get very scary and confusing indeed. Such a belief confuses the boundary where we ourselves end and the other person begins. Like many trippers, new age hippies and buddhists, etc at some level I do believe we are all connected and in some sense we are a continuous sea of energy... but I also keep a close eye on having a clearly defined sense of self-containment. I keep tidy and neat that my thoughts and beliefs are part of me and when it is all clear-cut, is not floating somewhere in the world. Actually, I'd rather not believe in it just to be sure and stay healthy! That is, until there is enough evidence for it that is verified by others and we can safely integrate it into our paradigm.
The paranormal may be a fascinating prospect, but don't let it dominate your life and get absorbed by it. It's not worth it, and you can still think about it while tripping or sober and think "well, that's interesting. imagine a world where that would be true!", but even very suggestive abnormal experiences that don't immediately offer another explanation should first be properly verified before you should let it become engrained in your world. You are lead to believe more than you used to primarily because psychedelics are mind-warping. Again, not everything experienced in a trip is by definition false, but in my opinion by default it is an effect of our logical limitations (and with it our skepticism) getting temporarily disabled and messed with. In such a case, there is no discrimination between what makes sense and what does not make sense, we are led to believe any of it may be true. If you think of it like that, do you think what we experience during a trip deserves to be taken at face value?

P.S. Look into mysticism. Learn about what it is, but also importantly what it is not.

Experience magically, think critically.

I like what you have to say and I agree with a lot of what youre saying but unfortunately having experienced things like detailed precognitive dreams about my girlfriend getting into an accident (I was able to describe hitting "something" and spinning out) make it difficult for me to accept as superstition. I awoke from this dream and thought nothing of it....I was driving a vw beetle in the dream...that's what she drives. She calls my cel in a panic about ten minutes later telling me she hit a deer and spun out off the freeway about 10 minutes after I woke. Not to mention spontaneous sleep paralysis that leads to OBEs if I sleep on my back at all. There has been numerous clandestine government experiments in ESP with many results being above chance and that's only what got leaked to the public. Im not saying Im some super human with amazing abilities I just feel that psychedleics have made me notice this phenomena more.

I know its getting a bit off topic but what if HPPD can be tied to other abnormalies in brain function like perhaps ESP? I watched a documentary recently called the boy with the amazing brain. This individual is a human calculator who was able to solve insanely difficulty equations on the spot in his head. Some of his abilities were researched by neurologists/psychiatrists, and when they asked him how he did the eqautions he explained that he just "saw" them (well he explains in more detail than that, is actually really fascinating). The researchers didn't buy this because it suggested extraordinary powers. The boy should have just solved them like everyone else but at extraordinary speed. The researchers where stumped bc this was a type of extrasensory perception. In the documentary they disclose that the boy suffered from epileptic seizures when he was a child and the seizures caused some sort of brain damage. When the boys brain healed it "wired" itself differently.

I wonder if psychedelics do "damage" the brain from excitotoxic properties and if the brain does repair itself in unusual ways to compensate.

At 28:30 he displayes some interesting abilities. At 32:00 he visits the researchers. VERY intriguing stuff.

 

[pmoseman]

When we discuss brain damage, I am not sure exactly how you would define that. For instance, alcohol only mucks up the synapsis and does not cause the kind of brain damage it once was thought to cause.

The subconcious mind can be busy. It is why you need a lot of sleep after studying. Why we awake to find solutions and pseudo-complete designs in our heads. Why, to solve a problem, you might need to step away from it for a time.

"Extra-sensory perception" means from somewhere outside of yourself you are picking up solutions. In the case of Tammet no such claim is being made.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1gywPOibg

 

[al-laddin]

When we discuss brain damage, I am not sure exactly how you would define that. For instance, alcohol only mucks up the synapsis and does not cause the kind of brain damage it once was thought to cause.

The subconcious mind can be busy. It is why you need a lot of sleep after studying. Why we awake to find solutions and pseudo-complete designs in our heads. Why, to solve a problem, you might need to step away from it for a time.

"Extra-sensory perception" means from somewhere outside of yourself you are picking up solutions. In the case of Tammet no such claim is being made.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1gywPOibg

Interesting they disproved alcohols toxic braincell killing effects?? Id like more info on that if you have a link.

Its really interesting you say that mentally removing yourself from a problem can actually help solve it. Ive noticed that in art and skateboarding , which have always consumed my life , that taking break from either one would help me actually excel much quicker and more rapidly when Im feeling "stuck" or have artists block. Letting the suconcious do the work eh? Its interesting that many cultures around the world adopted a mid day nap into their daily schedules as a way of recharging and actually being more productive from doing so. Not here in the good ol' USA though

 

[pmoseman]

The idea of the United States being a homogenous whole and looking at the average to give you details of a person's life?