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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
How toxic is Mephedrone?
- Thread starter Giovanni
- Start date
egor
Bluelighter
What is it going to take for people to wake up and stop binging on this shit?!?
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
Better still, don't take the mephedrone in the first place!
Jamshyd
Bluelight Crew
^ Yes.
Stims + Beta-blockers is bad news IME.^Can be. I know they aren't supposed to be used with cocaine, because of unopposed alpha agonism, which can make things a lot worse.
I don't think a heart rate of 120BPM is anything to be concerned about, so long as your blood pressure isn't through the roof. Most stims have my heart rate over 100BPM, but it doesn't cause any issues.
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
Artificial Emotion - no not even once as I've never trusted the ring methylated amphetamines, so it's a natural extention to also avoid the analagous cathinones
At high heart rates, like this, it's possible that the heart doesn't get enough blood. While this is OK if it's done through exercise (because it's short acting and muscle can anaerobically metabolize glucose (well pyruvic acid) to lactic acid), but having that heart rate for something like 20 hours is way beyond what anaerobic respiration can cope with and that;s not good for the muscle tissue involved
Mugz
Bluelighter
^so would that suggest that only putting the heart at a high rate for the same duration that you would exercise would not be anything to be concerned about?
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
In short bursts, it's actually good for you; it's just prolonged severe tachycardia that is to be avoided
Mugz
Bluelighter
so could short term stimulant use for 2 or 3 hours a day maximum replace the need for cardio exercise. Quite interesting if this is true. I know it wouldn't help build up other muscles other than the heart.Last edited:
B9
Bluelight Crew
I somehow doubt that's what's being suggested mugabe.isotopic_parody
Bluelighter
my heart rate is generally ~100 at rest.... I've seen at 189 while on way too much meth before.... I think stimulants are probably a bad idea for me...
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Are you seeing a physician for possible cardiovascular disease?
Operation Atlas
Greenlighter
I think people are blowing the safety threat of mephedrone way out of proportion. There have been only 3 or 4 recorded deaths from the drug, all but one of which involved the concomitant use of other stimulants. This is absolutely fantastic considering the number of people that have tried the drug. A number of over the counter medications have a far worse safety profile than this.
Mephedrone is a stimulant. Therefore, you have to follow the warnings that also apply with EVERY OTHER stimulant on the planet. That means, pretty much, that you shouldn't do more than you know you can handle (titrate dosage up slowly- don't just snort a big fat line the first time you see it), that you shouldn't do it for a long period of time, and you shouldn't combine it with drugs that have similar effects (especially amphetamines, cocaine and mdma).
Mephedrone is probably a much safer drug than many other stimulants because it has a hard time crossing the blood-brain barrier. The real threat with cocaine, for instance, is due to vasoconstriction in the medulla. Mephedrone's only demonstrated vasoconstriction is in the extremities, and is therefore not a significant threat to life.
If you dose slowly, you will be able to notice early signs of peripheral vasoconstriction far in advance of any adverse complications. If you notice pale, blue or cold hands or feet, simply stop use. If you have them on hand, take a benzodiazepine. A vasodilator may help to a certain degree- marijuana may be a good "antidote", and I'd be willing to bet that nitrites (amyl/isobutyl/isopentyl nitrite AKA poppers) would be very effective in an emergency situation.
One more thing- stop comparing mephedrone to PMA/PMMA. The chemicals have absolutely nothing in common except a phenyl group, which are extremely common amongst organic molecules. Cathinone/Methcathinone (and to a far lesser extent, (pseudo)ephedrine) are really the only relevant drugs when it comes to comparing effects/side effects.
tl;dr: Don't be dumb. Don't do more than 500mg in a 24-hour period. Don't use more than 1-2 times a week. If you have self control problems, stay away from it all together.
dread
Bluelighter
^ so, another vendor trying to justify selling this horrible crap to people, eh?
For the record your post makes no sense whatsoever.
Operation Atlas
Greenlighter
Can you link to anything proving that 4-MA is a significant metabolite of mephedrone? Based on the effects/duration of mephedrone, I would seriously doubt that 4-MA is present in any significant amounts. 4-MA is a neurotoxin, and all of the bad side effects we've noticed have been related to peripheral vasoconstriction, which 4-MA wouldn't play an especially important role in.
Operation Atlas
Greenlighter
I'm not a vendor. I work in the medical device industry, working with cardiovascular implants. Sorry if my post was hard to read- I sometimes have a hard time putting cardiovascular terminology into "plain english." Can you be more specific as to what was hard to understand about the post?
nuke
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2004
- Messages
- 4,190
You don't even need to justify it by saying that it's a metabolite -- it's well know that putting a hydrophobic atom into the 4-position increases an amphetamine's affinity for SERT and thus serotonin release, which is well known to be a precursor for amphetaminergic neurotoxicity and cardiotoxicity.
EC50 DA/NE/5HT nM
d-Amphetamine 8.0±0.43, 7.2 ±0.44, 1756±94
meta-Methylamphetamine 33.3±1.3, 18.3±1.4, 218±22
para-Methylamphetamine 44.1±2.6, 22.2±1.3, 53.4±4.1
Wee S, Anderson KG, Baumann MH, Rothman RB, Blough BE, Woolverton WL (2005). "Relationship between the serotonergic activity and reinforcing effects of a series of amphetamine analogs.". J Pharmacol Exp Ther 313 (2): 848-54.
The affinity of methcathinone and methamphetamine for DA/NA/5HT release is as follows:
EC50 DA/NE/5HT nM
(+)-Methamphetamine 12.3 ± 0.7, 24.5 ± 2.1, 736 ± 45
(–)-Methcathinone 13.1 ± 0.6, 14.8 ± 0.4, 1772 ± 160
Rothman RB, Vu N, Partilla JS, Roth BL, Hufeisen SJ, Compton-Toth BA, Birkes J, Young R, Glennon RA. (2003) In vitro characterization of ephedrine-related stereoisomers at biogenic amine transporters and the receptorome reveals selective actions as norepinephrine transporter substrates. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 307(1), 138-145.
We can only make an educated guess that 4-Methylmethcathinone is somewhere between methcathinone and 4-Methylamphetamine in terms of 5HT release, and given that it's very possible we're dealing with a strongly neurotoxic and cardiotoxic agent. I mean, methamphetamine is incredibly neurotoxic yet is 60x preferential for DA over 5HT compared to 220x preferential for amphetamine, while 4-Methylamphetamine's ratio is 1.2x!
dread
Bluelighter
These parts made no sense:
Drug not passing BBB doesn't make it safer. Peripheral effects can be just as (if not more) dangerous as cns effects.
Obviously the number of deaths is not the sole factor in determining the harmfulness of a drug. See how many reports are flooding in about horrible side effects, such as intense vasoconstriction to the point of limbs turning blue. You can dismiss them as anecdotal but IMO that would just be living in denial.
Nonsense. There's at least one report of a guy getting vasoconstriction and blue knees/fingers after a single medium sized dose.
These chemicals have lots in common. They all are para-substituted phenethylamines. They all have horrible side effect profiles. They all are chemicals most sensible people wouldn't touch with a 10' shitty stick...
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Wait. I thought that you said that MA was more neurotoxic than MDMA at 'equivalent' (not sure...typical dose to typical dose? I'm sure isn't per-milligram...that comparison'd be silly, unless I misunderstood you), suggesting that a DA flood in the presence of moderate 5ht efflux presents greater neurotoxicity than a moderate flood of 5ht and sizable release of DA. Thus, it does not follow that a higher ratio of 5ht to dopamine release reliably marks the magnitude of neurotoxicity.
I would imagine that people will tolerate a level of neurotoxicity equivalent to MDMA (yes, non-neurotoxic would be ideal. . .). Given your above hypothesis, 4MMC should exert less neurotoxicity than MDMA, in terms of that occurring via simultaneous DA and 5ht release (it could of course do other bad things). Of course, if that hypothesis is false, 4MMC could be way worse.
I think that threatening death, amputation, etc. is bad enough.
ebola
