How to - Deal with LE.

[hoptis]

This is getting way off-track guys, I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but BL is about harm reduction, if you have general legal questions try the Legal Discussion forum and maybe if we ask really nicely, Mr lulz will check it out.

Or consult your local legal aid office.

 

[fortehlulz]

I will assume Victoria on this one.

If so, recent legislative ammendments do the good old reverse onus on you - you have to explain why you're walking around in a park late at night with spray cans or be charged with possess graf implement. That homicide squad/gang activity is filled with fail. That's the worst pretext I've ever heard. And your Magistrate, presumably because you were record free, gave you the typical no conviction first time around. Your lawyer must've been shit, that should've been a diversion.

Show me the relevance to harm reduction related to J and R playing Gary Giveup and you'll get an answer.

i just have 2 questions regarding an incident involving me and 2 friends about a month ago.
I was walking through a park at about 10 30pm with J and R (16 and 17yrs old). Unmarked police car pulls over and demands to search our bags, i asked what their grounds were, they said they were from the homocide squad following up on reports of gang violence in the area. Grabbed J's bag found spray cans and proceeded to search the rest of us. They then requested we follow them to the station, not under arrest, but if we refused they said they would arrest us. J and R were interviewed first and admitted everything
i gave a polite no comment but they said they were charging me with possesion of graffiti instruments because J and R had confessed.

If J and R had kept their fat pie holes shut could they hav charged me? Because stencils by themselves arent really graffiti instruments if they cant prove intent to use them on public property. We hadnt done anything that nite so there was no paint on clothes, fingers, stencils and none of us had any incriminating photo's on our phones.

J was only 16 so got a formal caution, R and me went to court, R got $400 fine no conviction and i got $100 no conviction... was my judge just feeling nice?

 

[fortehlulz]

fortehlulz, with Police and sniffer dogs showing up at a couple of events in Perth recently I am interested in any W.A. specific laws regarding this. I read somewhere recently that police have been given permission (might not be the right term) to use sniffer dogs on lines for nightclubs in Northbridge etc.

ie
Is all that is required for them to force you to be searched a signal from the sniffer dog?

If they pull you up at the gates to an event or train station what parts of you can they search on the spot?

Can they strip search you then and there?

Can they cavity search you?

Dog indication = reasonable grounds.

If they have reasonable grounds, they can and will go to town.

They can strip search you in private (hence the tents or MPF [Mobile Policing Facility])

As for cavity search, do some research on your state laws, won't be hard to find. Check austlii for your drugs legislation, the search power will be in there.

 

[fortehlulz]

Victoria - just an old username from an old country! Does Victoria even offer this service?

And what are the grounds for getting legal aid - I'm probably going to be ruled out for a reason or two?

I suggest you talk to friends and get yourself a reasonable criminal lawyer. A retainer is a fee you pay to make the lawyer available to you. You've retained his/her services.... further fees are payable should you need representation, but it saves you having to dig through the yellowpages in a police watch house.

If you're in Melbourne and are serious about putting someone on retainer, PM me, I'll refer you to a couple for your consideration.

 

[fortehlulz]

Best of luck decrypting the APCO digital and proprietary encryption. Vic has no specific legislation re intercepting police comms, though NSW does.

Anyone can buy a 'radar dector' (rofl... fucking useless against the laser systems in use) but the GPS with the inbuilt 'radar detector' are reliant upon consistent and correct updating of software to flag the location of 'radar' units (and by that, we're talking fixed speeding cameras), and dependant upon your state's law, the USE (as opposed to possession) of a radar dector may be a legal issue... but once again, they're basically useless.

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/10/mio_moov_150_gps_navigation_system.html[/URL]

 

[xpotential]

Hey fortehluls, could you explain minors rights?
Can a minor (as in under 16) be strip searched?
How do police identify you if you don't have a drivers license or any form of Id yet?
If a cop approaches you late at night (intoxicated or not), does he have the right to, or have to drive you home?

 

[fortehlulz]

Hey fortehluls, could you explain minors rights?
Can a minor (as in under 16) be strip searched?

Minors have more rights in terms of needing an IP (independant person) or guardian present, forensic procedures may not be an option or may have more stringent requirements etc. Check you local laws for further.

How do police identify you if you don't have a drivers license or any form of Id yet?

A set of 'the usuals', an IBR on the Names Index. If you've ever been a victim, had your name taken, had your name taken by a cop for any reason, got any flags, its on here and will be reported back with your date of birth and last address (from last check/contact). Police will accept student ID etc, or even no ID at all - this comes down to discretion, circumstances of how you're found, your apparent age, your demeanour, and the people you're found with - which means that if you are a disproportionately good bullshit artist (as some 16 year olds are) you'll get away with far more than a male in their late teens and older.

If a cop approaches you late at night (intoxicated or not), does he have the right to, or have to drive you home?

Intoxed has its own arrest power to convey to safe custody. The question is, were you COMPELLED to get in the car? Were you given a choice? Were you up to no good? There is no specific 'get the kids of the streets' powers, but then again, if you're out at 3am and are underaged, chances are you haven't been at a mates watching Antiques Roadshow.

 

[fortehlulz]

Bumparoo - as I have no doubt we'll be getting a few questions after BDO Melbourne :D

 

[mister]

firstly fortehlul, thank you for taking the time to enlighten us all on the finer points of law enforcement.

I was told that if the police pull you over in a car and the occupant(s) throw any drugs on the floor, preferably under the seat out of sight but not concealed, if searched and the drugs are found, the driver and occupants deny ownership of the drugs and the driver says he/she has picked up and dropped off a few people through the day that the police would have difficulty making a charge stick as the drugs could have belonged to any of the people who had been in the car that day.

Also If someone was to be on public transport or on the street and held the drugs in hand, discreetly throwing/dropping the drugs under the seat, on the floor, the same applies.

possession is nine tenths of the law?

thanks in advance

 

[Verybuffed]

I was told that if the police pull you over in a car and the occupant(s) throw any drugs on the floor, preferably under the seat out of sight but not concealed, if searched and the drugs are found, the driver and occupants deny ownership of the drugs and the driver says he/she has picked up and dropped off a few people through the day that the police would have difficulty making a charge stick as the drugs could have belonged to any of the people who had been in the car that day.

Good question, I am keen to know the answer to that one.

As for the second bit; Police will say that it is your word against theirs and being that they are respected members of the community you won't have a leg to stand on.

 

[ayjay]

^In Vic, 'possession' (Drugs poisons and controlled substances act) includes in a car you own or are driving. It doesn't really matter what you say - if it's your car and/or you are driving it, then you can be done for possession.

 

[Tronica]

^In Vic, 'possession' (Drugs poisons and controlled substances act) includes in a car you own or are driving. It doesn't really matter what you say - if it's your car and/or you are driving it, then you can be done for possession.

I remember someone telling me many years ago that if you kept a stash in the pocket of a jacket that wasn't yours in your house, you could deny it was yours and as long as there was no proof the jacket was yours, this would hold.

Found it hard to believe at the time. Is this true or just hearsay? (Similar to the car ruling I would imagine!)

 

[static_mind]

Well the say its possession and knowledge of it, maybe you could pull it off. That dickhead said someone planted GHB on him when he was found in the park asleep. Someone must have put it in there when he was danceing and it was hot so he took off his pants.

He got off. Maybe more people need to challange it.

More then likely youd get nailed though

 

[Sustanon]

Yeah try saying that at an airport with 15kgs of heroin in a bag , oh excuse me i was just helping this old lady carry it lol

 

[fortehlulz]

I was told that if the police pull you over in a car and the occupant(s) throw any drugs on the floor, preferably under the seat out of sight but not concealed, if searched and the drugs are found, the driver and occupants deny ownership of the drugs and the driver says he/she has picked up and dropped off a few people through the day that the police would have difficulty making a charge stick as the drugs could have belonged to any of the people who had been in the car that day.thanks in advance

Nope. Constructive possession means that if you enjoy or utilise premises or a vehicle and drugs are found thereupon, unless you can satisfy the magistrate that you had no knowledge or control of said drugs whatsoever, you'll be going down for possess. Its not a case of 'prove it was mine' if its in your car, its a case of you proving its not yours.

Also If someone was to be on public transport or on the street and held the drugs in hand, discreetly throwing/dropping the drugs under the seat, on the floor, the same applies.

With regard to the street, assuming Big Brother is not watching (and seldom is he not now), and it went on the ground before one were seen with it - its a public place. Don't forget things like fingerprints or independant witnesses can ruin your day. Same deal with public transport.

I remember someone telling me many years ago that if you kept a stash in the pocket of a jacket that wasn't yours in your house, you could deny it was yours and as long as there was no proof the jacket was yours, this would hold.

Found it hard to believe at the time. Is this true or just hearsay?

Constructive possession still applies, but more arguable than it being found in your car.

 

[Confused07]

Police Searches at Festivals

I'm sure there is an answer to the question somewhere in the forums but i couldn't find it.
I was wondering with all the current talk of sniffer dogs and checks by police at festivals following on from Perth BDO, what can police legally do if a dog sniffs you out.

Considering there are reports that suggest that dogs get it right 27% of the time how far can a police search go if a dog sits down in front of you? ?

Can they legally strip search you just under suspision? or can they only ask you to empty your pockets and do a pat down over the clothes. is it one of those 'u can say no but then they can deny you entry into the event'

There are so many rumours that float around about this and everyone has their own ideas about the effectiveness of sniffer dogs and its kinda caught my interest.

I can imagine itd be pretty shitty if you'd been in contact with drugs, had none on you when u entered but then had a dog sit down in front of you and the next thing u know u find yourself being stripped down by a couple cops and being felt up in dodgy places.

is it different in each state?

Don't respond with 'don't take drugs in and u'll be fine' coz thats pretty obvious and not what i'm asking, i'm actually interested in what ppl's legal rights are when it comes to this.

 

[fortehlulz]

Seriously, UTFSE, but in short, a dog sniff constitutes 'reasonable grounds' that you possess drugs for the purposes of a search. Search out your state's drug legislation and check what search power, without warrant, is available when there are reasonable grounds to suspect you possess drugs.

 

[pinothippy]

Nope. Constructive possession means that if you enjoy or utilise premises or a vehicle and drugs are found thereupon, unless you can satisfy the magistrate that you had no knowledge or control of said drugs whatsoever, you'll be going down for possess. Its not a case of 'prove it was mine' if its in your car, its a case of you proving its not yours.



With regard to the street, assuming Big Brother is not watching (and seldom is he not now), and it went on the ground before one were seen with it - its a public place. Don't forget things like fingerprints or independant witnesses can ruin your day. Same deal with public transport.



Constructive possession still applies, but more arguable than it being found in your car.

As the OP mentioned fingerprints will bring you undone. How many people in the above situations would be wearing gloves. Sweet FA!

 

[my innerself]

I once got jumped on by a sniffer dog when visiting a mate in Hakea Prison. They got me to step out of the line and questioned me as to why the dog would pick me out. I just told them that I had a stick in my pocket the day before and there must be some residue there. They still let me into the prison behind one of those glass screens. Obviously this is much different to a police sniffer dog. I'd assume they would be able to search your pockets, shoes, hat, wallet, bag etc and also do a pat down. If you conceal the contraband good enough I wouldn't even be fussed about a search. I would just tell them the same story that I said in the prison (which was true by the way). If you lie to them and say you have nothing on you I think they would be more inclined to do a closer search.

 

[fortehlulz]

I once got jumped on by a sniffer dog when visiting a mate in Hakea Prison. They got me to step out of the line and questioned me as to why the dog would pick me out. I just told them that I had a stick in my pocket the day before and there must be some residue there. They still let me into the prison behind one of those glass screens.

If that happened in a Victorian prison today, you'd be in for a WORLD of hurt. You're under different legislation once you're within the boundaries of a prison, and should you trip the ion scanner (which legal professionals and general visitors alike go through) you'll be turned around and hustled off for a search sharpish.