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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
How many pods do you normally use at one time?
- Thread starter BASEjumper
- Start date
ofukibenhearB4
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2008
- Messages
- 470
as many as it takes to get fucked up/well
this could be 1 or 2 freshies of ANY size, or this could be 16 dried pods or it could be 6.
there is NO STANDARD OBVIOUSLY this thread is pointless becsaue the alkaloid content varies so much,.............
just my opinion anyways
this could be 1 or 2 freshies of ANY size, or this could be 16 dried pods or it could be 6.
there is NO STANDARD OBVIOUSLY this thread is pointless becsaue the alkaloid content varies so much,.............
just my opinion anyways
rachamim
Bluelighter
PART II:
Thermal: "Was a lurker, now a poster.": Welcome.
"When using figures such as Rachamim's, you need to attribute them to a souce.": Uh, no I do not. This is not a dissertation but an informational post and/or exchange of opinions.
I certainly do not expect people to be privy to everything I have ever expressed on BL but one thing I did used to say quite often was that I purposely do not use Sources because my ultimate hope is that people will use information I have offered as a point of reference and not definative information in and of itself. Indeed the Mission Statement of this site states that ALL people using the site should do the same.
So, when I offer a piece of infomation it is with the ultimate hope that consumers will refer to it while investigating the matter ON THEIR OWN and thus , in the end, be quite confident of the truth. My using a Source would tend to make consumers take what I say at face value.
Furthermore, a peer reviewed source is not conclusive proof of anything. Ever examine the famous "LSD Damages Chromosomes" fiasco of the late 1960s? Peer reviewed information should be used IN CONJUNCTION with other corroborating evidence.
"Regardless of your source Rachamim, it is wrong.": WAIT! In one breath you admonish me for not offering a source, and in the very next breath admonish the veracity of THAT source?
Now let us examine the sum and substance of your claim (that my information is incorrect):
"Unrefined opium has a morphine content of up to 35%.": WHAT? Actually, the average is 10% and the highest known to man was less than 29% and only then in laboratory conditions.
In any event, what would THAT have to do with the morphine content of a pod way past Technical Ripeness?
"The morphine content percentage DEPENDS ON THE STRAIN."Uh, no it does not. Strains of Somniferum have nothing to do with percentages of morphine any more than seed colour has to do with the colour of the bloom. Alakloidal content depends on a wide array of different factors: Cultivation, growing season, growing medium, method of cultivation, growing aids such as fertilisers, amount of sunlight, directional exposure, altitude, and general weather conditions as well as other factors.
"If you take the average amount of opium in a pod, and the average amount of morphine in opium you get a figure of...": The average pod has very different amounts (in terms of averages always) of opium depending on the phase of the growth cycle. AGAIN: TECHNICAL RIPENESS.
For those that care though, a pod will RARELY produce more than 100 mg of opium over the course of 5 lancings (which is the average amount of lancings per pod worldwide). The average is actually considerably less.
As I stated earlier, the average morphine content of raw (i.e. "unrefined") opium is 10%.
In other words, IF we were discussing the net amount of morphine from the opium of each pod (and of course we doing no such thing), we would then say the average pod will offer 8 mgs. of morphine in its raw form. This would be over the course of 5 lancings, on average, so to take it one step further, it would then be a figure of roughly 1.6 mgs of morphine per lancing (1.6 is aroughly rounded off number so quibble over a decimal space if you will, I am taking way too much time with this thread as it is and cannot afford to also spend the time needed to calculate that minscule number-smile).
FINALLY, 1.6 mgs. consumed orally provides us with...how much? Roughly, a half a milligram of morphine.
Alot of numbers, right? Unfortunately this will soon turn into a meaningless thread but I felt it prudent to illustrate the mistakes I feel the poster is making in offering his/her take on the issue and wanted this clearly understood so that we might concentrate on the actual issue at hand.
"Purpose grown Tasmanians.": Forgive me, seriously, but what does that phrase mean? Tasmania is a place, not a strain (despite purveyors of dried pods and their marketing gimmicks). There is actually a strain specifically developed in Tasmania, by the Tasmanian Cooperative but that strain has almost no morphine whatsoever ("Norman," which has freakishly high thebaine content, bred from a mutation).
Ergo, why woud a "Tasmanian" poppy have a freakishly high morphine content in any regular fashion?
"3 medium-large pods weigh on average, 10 grams.": Well, that is possible but that is including the seeds of course which is ALOT of empty weight in terms of the alkaloids.
"Poppy straw is defined as...": The technical definition, in US measurements, would be the Pod, crown, and 4 inches of stem immediately underneath the pod. The 4 inches of stem have only slighly larger than negligble quantities of any of the alkaloids but an incredible amount of vegetable matter is needed for the Kabay, et al processes.
"Seeds and star removed.": Seeds YES, REMOVED. "Star?" (meaning the corona AKA "Crown"), NO. The corona is left as is in commercial processes because its removal would entail the loss of important portions of the pod. As much surface area as possible is needed for the minimal efficiency of Kabay, et al to even be economically viable.
"Do not get 'bioavailabilty' involved because no matter the ROA it still goes through you.": OK, first let me make something clear. I do not relish "Dic$sizing" and arguing over such things, and most of all detest when personality gets involved because we should only be debating facts, not personalities or perceptions there of.
This is not to say that I find you doing anything of the sort but that is what usually happens and I just want you to understand that I am not trying to "rag" on you or talk down to you . I only want to allow accuracy to reign which seems to be what you want as well.
Now, bioavailability IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL. Morphine has a wide variable in bioavailability and IS ALSO subject to First Pass Metabolism which renders oral consumption (of it) very inefficient. Tea of course, is going to be, almost always, orally consumed. When discussing a dosage of morphine, say 100 mgs., one needs to understand that only 1/3rd of that entire dosage is going to effect the user.
IF you are talking about ALOT of vegetable matter to net a rather paltry amounf of a substance that is only going to be 1/3rd as effective as the presented amount it then becomes an absolutely crucial issue.
"Rachamim should not act as if some substances are not active in microgram range.": Right, I agree BUT what does THAT have to do with the subject at hand? We are talking about Somni and with Somni it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever since a microgram of ANY of the psychoactive alkaloids will be absolutely worthless any way you look at it.
"The poster actually gets euphoria from pods, but not from morphine sulphate Instant Release.": To each their own but in terms of science the statement is irrelevant. Morphine of course produces euphoria . Pods contain morphine, and as such they too can cause euphoria. What matters though is whether the amount of morphine one gains from pods will be able to produce euphoria. Obviously, some people will gain benefit but in the end most will not. You believe though that it is not the morphine but the other alkalolids in the poppy that offer the euphoria. Thing is, morphine is the Gold Standard in euphoria (as well as analgesia) and all other opiates/opioids are subject to compairson against it for both of these targetted effects (per the so called "Morphine Rule").
One side of that coin is the very small amount of morphine gained from any number of pods and the other side, aside from subjective tolerance, is the fact that a long term user/addict's physiology changes over time so as to make one require a huge increase in the amount of opiate/opioid needed to gain said effect...IF the opiate/opioid is even capable of euphoria (which of course pods AND morphine are). So... it is counter-intuitive to imagine purified morphine in concentrated form would offer you less euphoria than morphine in single digit and unpurified form.
You find it more beneficial than morphine in terms of euphoria? I suspect you would be an abberration statistically but that is impossible to define. As I said, to each their own.
"The poster DID research Rachamim's figure on morphine content in pods and it seems the number IS correct but only for fresh pods,etc.": Yep, AND those that have surpassed Technical Ripeness, etc. I am assuming that by "Fresh Pods" you mean to say pods BEFORE Tech. Ripeness, i.e. immature plants.
"The poster bets noone could ingest '8000 grams of Pod Tea' without dying, etc.": Yep, me too but not because of psychoactivity, only because of H20 Intoxication, and so on. Most of those claiming or experiencing psychoactivity with far more moderate dosages of Pod Tea are doing so because they are not and have not been long term opiate/opioid users/addicts.
To clarify, this does not mean a consumer has not taken pain pills or even heroin for 18 months but that they have not done so over the course of several years, etc. If you give the so called average person 30 mgs. of codeine they will feel something. Take a junkie with say 15 years of experience and 3 years clean and they will still not feel a thing. Receptors change over time as does endorphin and other interaction (cAMP, etc), etc, etc.
Quasi: "Rachami is contradicting himself in figures he offered in an older thread on this same subject.": That WAS the thread I had in mind when I first commented in THIS thread. The contradiction is due to the fact that in the previous thread I was merely offering anecdotal information.
If you notice I said a phrase, "AT BEST." I was offering the absolute maximum amounts. That means I was talking about unlanced pods AT TECHNICAL RIPENESS. There is a huge difference. I did that for a very good reason. As you see here people naturally take figures to task because they feel that they have gained this, that, or the other benefit from the substance so in offering the maximum possible content I wanted to illustrate that even in the most optimum of circumstances it is still a no-brainer.
The reality is alot harsher as I have illustrated in the current thread. You buy, say from an online auction firm, or from a florist, what do you imagine you are getting? A pod picked at the peak of psychoactive perfection? Of course not. However, I though in the first thread that by offering people the best case scenario it would further illustrate just how non-sensical their conceptions were (not to sound as if I wanted to denigrate people, on the contrary I wished to better illustrate the issue).
I will respond to Thermal's last post in a bit because I wish to offer it enough attention that will allow me to properly scrutinise the information he is posting. IF a person goes through the trouble of posting a Source I feel they should be given at least the respect required to fully consider said Source. I hope to get to it today.
*I need to add that in rereading this post I felt the need to clarify a point. I stated that strain of Somni does not matter as far as morphine content is concerned. This is absolutely true. While there are trademarked strains like "Norman," etc. that produce a generally consistent percentage for a particular alkaloid, with "Norman" is it concerning thebaine. However, with morphine there has never been a strain developed that can consistently produce more than 10% of morphine. You CAN increase content via treatment of the soil, and pristine environmental controls (execessive irrigation leeches alkaloids, and conversely under-irridated plants never develop their alkaloidal contents to the fullest potential). Still, in the end breeding has not produced any real innovations above 10%.
Thermal: "Was a lurker, now a poster.": Welcome.
"When using figures such as Rachamim's, you need to attribute them to a souce.": Uh, no I do not. This is not a dissertation but an informational post and/or exchange of opinions.
I certainly do not expect people to be privy to everything I have ever expressed on BL but one thing I did used to say quite often was that I purposely do not use Sources because my ultimate hope is that people will use information I have offered as a point of reference and not definative information in and of itself. Indeed the Mission Statement of this site states that ALL people using the site should do the same.
So, when I offer a piece of infomation it is with the ultimate hope that consumers will refer to it while investigating the matter ON THEIR OWN and thus , in the end, be quite confident of the truth. My using a Source would tend to make consumers take what I say at face value.
Furthermore, a peer reviewed source is not conclusive proof of anything. Ever examine the famous "LSD Damages Chromosomes" fiasco of the late 1960s? Peer reviewed information should be used IN CONJUNCTION with other corroborating evidence.
"Regardless of your source Rachamim, it is wrong.": WAIT! In one breath you admonish me for not offering a source, and in the very next breath admonish the veracity of THAT source?
Now let us examine the sum and substance of your claim (that my information is incorrect):
"Unrefined opium has a morphine content of up to 35%.": WHAT? Actually, the average is 10% and the highest known to man was less than 29% and only then in laboratory conditions.
In any event, what would THAT have to do with the morphine content of a pod way past Technical Ripeness?
"The morphine content percentage DEPENDS ON THE STRAIN."Uh, no it does not. Strains of Somniferum have nothing to do with percentages of morphine any more than seed colour has to do with the colour of the bloom. Alakloidal content depends on a wide array of different factors: Cultivation, growing season, growing medium, method of cultivation, growing aids such as fertilisers, amount of sunlight, directional exposure, altitude, and general weather conditions as well as other factors.
"If you take the average amount of opium in a pod, and the average amount of morphine in opium you get a figure of...": The average pod has very different amounts (in terms of averages always) of opium depending on the phase of the growth cycle. AGAIN: TECHNICAL RIPENESS.
For those that care though, a pod will RARELY produce more than 100 mg of opium over the course of 5 lancings (which is the average amount of lancings per pod worldwide). The average is actually considerably less.
As I stated earlier, the average morphine content of raw (i.e. "unrefined") opium is 10%.
In other words, IF we were discussing the net amount of morphine from the opium of each pod (and of course we doing no such thing), we would then say the average pod will offer 8 mgs. of morphine in its raw form. This would be over the course of 5 lancings, on average, so to take it one step further, it would then be a figure of roughly 1.6 mgs of morphine per lancing (1.6 is aroughly rounded off number so quibble over a decimal space if you will, I am taking way too much time with this thread as it is and cannot afford to also spend the time needed to calculate that minscule number-smile).
FINALLY, 1.6 mgs. consumed orally provides us with...how much? Roughly, a half a milligram of morphine.
Alot of numbers, right? Unfortunately this will soon turn into a meaningless thread but I felt it prudent to illustrate the mistakes I feel the poster is making in offering his/her take on the issue and wanted this clearly understood so that we might concentrate on the actual issue at hand.
"Purpose grown Tasmanians.": Forgive me, seriously, but what does that phrase mean? Tasmania is a place, not a strain (despite purveyors of dried pods and their marketing gimmicks). There is actually a strain specifically developed in Tasmania, by the Tasmanian Cooperative but that strain has almost no morphine whatsoever ("Norman," which has freakishly high thebaine content, bred from a mutation).
Ergo, why woud a "Tasmanian" poppy have a freakishly high morphine content in any regular fashion?
"3 medium-large pods weigh on average, 10 grams.": Well, that is possible but that is including the seeds of course which is ALOT of empty weight in terms of the alkaloids.
"Poppy straw is defined as...": The technical definition, in US measurements, would be the Pod, crown, and 4 inches of stem immediately underneath the pod. The 4 inches of stem have only slighly larger than negligble quantities of any of the alkaloids but an incredible amount of vegetable matter is needed for the Kabay, et al processes.
"Seeds and star removed.": Seeds YES, REMOVED. "Star?" (meaning the corona AKA "Crown"), NO. The corona is left as is in commercial processes because its removal would entail the loss of important portions of the pod. As much surface area as possible is needed for the minimal efficiency of Kabay, et al to even be economically viable.
"Do not get 'bioavailabilty' involved because no matter the ROA it still goes through you.": OK, first let me make something clear. I do not relish "Dic$sizing" and arguing over such things, and most of all detest when personality gets involved because we should only be debating facts, not personalities or perceptions there of.
This is not to say that I find you doing anything of the sort but that is what usually happens and I just want you to understand that I am not trying to "rag" on you or talk down to you . I only want to allow accuracy to reign which seems to be what you want as well.
Now, bioavailability IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL. Morphine has a wide variable in bioavailability and IS ALSO subject to First Pass Metabolism which renders oral consumption (of it) very inefficient. Tea of course, is going to be, almost always, orally consumed. When discussing a dosage of morphine, say 100 mgs., one needs to understand that only 1/3rd of that entire dosage is going to effect the user.
IF you are talking about ALOT of vegetable matter to net a rather paltry amounf of a substance that is only going to be 1/3rd as effective as the presented amount it then becomes an absolutely crucial issue.
"Rachamim should not act as if some substances are not active in microgram range.": Right, I agree BUT what does THAT have to do with the subject at hand? We are talking about Somni and with Somni it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever since a microgram of ANY of the psychoactive alkaloids will be absolutely worthless any way you look at it.
"The poster actually gets euphoria from pods, but not from morphine sulphate Instant Release.": To each their own but in terms of science the statement is irrelevant. Morphine of course produces euphoria . Pods contain morphine, and as such they too can cause euphoria. What matters though is whether the amount of morphine one gains from pods will be able to produce euphoria. Obviously, some people will gain benefit but in the end most will not. You believe though that it is not the morphine but the other alkalolids in the poppy that offer the euphoria. Thing is, morphine is the Gold Standard in euphoria (as well as analgesia) and all other opiates/opioids are subject to compairson against it for both of these targetted effects (per the so called "Morphine Rule").
One side of that coin is the very small amount of morphine gained from any number of pods and the other side, aside from subjective tolerance, is the fact that a long term user/addict's physiology changes over time so as to make one require a huge increase in the amount of opiate/opioid needed to gain said effect...IF the opiate/opioid is even capable of euphoria (which of course pods AND morphine are). So... it is counter-intuitive to imagine purified morphine in concentrated form would offer you less euphoria than morphine in single digit and unpurified form.
You find it more beneficial than morphine in terms of euphoria? I suspect you would be an abberration statistically but that is impossible to define. As I said, to each their own.
"The poster DID research Rachamim's figure on morphine content in pods and it seems the number IS correct but only for fresh pods,etc.": Yep, AND those that have surpassed Technical Ripeness, etc. I am assuming that by "Fresh Pods" you mean to say pods BEFORE Tech. Ripeness, i.e. immature plants.
"The poster bets noone could ingest '8000 grams of Pod Tea' without dying, etc.": Yep, me too but not because of psychoactivity, only because of H20 Intoxication, and so on. Most of those claiming or experiencing psychoactivity with far more moderate dosages of Pod Tea are doing so because they are not and have not been long term opiate/opioid users/addicts.
To clarify, this does not mean a consumer has not taken pain pills or even heroin for 18 months but that they have not done so over the course of several years, etc. If you give the so called average person 30 mgs. of codeine they will feel something. Take a junkie with say 15 years of experience and 3 years clean and they will still not feel a thing. Receptors change over time as does endorphin and other interaction (cAMP, etc), etc, etc.
Quasi: "Rachami is contradicting himself in figures he offered in an older thread on this same subject.": That WAS the thread I had in mind when I first commented in THIS thread. The contradiction is due to the fact that in the previous thread I was merely offering anecdotal information.
If you notice I said a phrase, "AT BEST." I was offering the absolute maximum amounts. That means I was talking about unlanced pods AT TECHNICAL RIPENESS. There is a huge difference. I did that for a very good reason. As you see here people naturally take figures to task because they feel that they have gained this, that, or the other benefit from the substance so in offering the maximum possible content I wanted to illustrate that even in the most optimum of circumstances it is still a no-brainer.
The reality is alot harsher as I have illustrated in the current thread. You buy, say from an online auction firm, or from a florist, what do you imagine you are getting? A pod picked at the peak of psychoactive perfection? Of course not. However, I though in the first thread that by offering people the best case scenario it would further illustrate just how non-sensical their conceptions were (not to sound as if I wanted to denigrate people, on the contrary I wished to better illustrate the issue).
I will respond to Thermal's last post in a bit because I wish to offer it enough attention that will allow me to properly scrutinise the information he is posting. IF a person goes through the trouble of posting a Source I feel they should be given at least the respect required to fully consider said Source. I hope to get to it today.
*I need to add that in rereading this post I felt the need to clarify a point. I stated that strain of Somni does not matter as far as morphine content is concerned. This is absolutely true. While there are trademarked strains like "Norman," etc. that produce a generally consistent percentage for a particular alkaloid, with "Norman" is it concerning thebaine. However, with morphine there has never been a strain developed that can consistently produce more than 10% of morphine. You CAN increase content via treatment of the soil, and pristine environmental controls (execessive irrigation leeches alkaloids, and conversely under-irridated plants never develop their alkaloidal contents to the fullest potential). Still, in the end breeding has not produced any real innovations above 10%.
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rachamim
Bluelighter
PART III:
Thermal: "Sources.":
Source I: As I said - in terms of morphine cotent. As far as the other information that "agricultural selection of poppies for morphine production...":That bit of information is useless even for the over all thesis of the Paper.
Source II: I realise you must be offering that Source because of the figures on pod morphine content. If so, it is a useless source because it is dealing with issues that have no bearing on what we are discussing ( gradient changes between successive harvests), and its terminology is questionable.
When discussing "maturity" one needs to differentiate between "Technical Ripeness" and "Ripeness" which are 2 completely different growth phases and crucial to certain issues. It does offer some insight into what I have been saying though in its correct explanation that up to 50% of "mature" straw is merely "Seed weight."
As I told you when you offered the "Average weight" of the pods you were discussing, "Seed weight" needs to be disentangled.
Source III: 3 threads on 2 drug oriented boards, "Drug Forum UK" and "Poppies.Org.": I will pass those by as I do believe the issue has been explored enough BUT if you have other data you would like to discuss, please do not hesitate to post it. I hope by now you see what I have been trying to get across but either way glad you cared enough to try and prove what you felt to be more accurate info.
Lawrence: Thank you for the kind words Lawrence.
HereB4: You know what they say about "opinions" hahaha. Seriously though, there ARE mean averages. Still, you can as you say sometimes experience seomthing more easily than at other times. As with any natural substance there is adegree of hit and miss.
Thermal: "Sources.":
Source I: As I said - in terms of morphine cotent. As far as the other information that "agricultural selection of poppies for morphine production...":That bit of information is useless even for the over all thesis of the Paper.
Source II: I realise you must be offering that Source because of the figures on pod morphine content. If so, it is a useless source because it is dealing with issues that have no bearing on what we are discussing ( gradient changes between successive harvests), and its terminology is questionable.
When discussing "maturity" one needs to differentiate between "Technical Ripeness" and "Ripeness" which are 2 completely different growth phases and crucial to certain issues. It does offer some insight into what I have been saying though in its correct explanation that up to 50% of "mature" straw is merely "Seed weight."
As I told you when you offered the "Average weight" of the pods you were discussing, "Seed weight" needs to be disentangled.
Source III: 3 threads on 2 drug oriented boards, "Drug Forum UK" and "Poppies.Org.": I will pass those by as I do believe the issue has been explored enough BUT if you have other data you would like to discuss, please do not hesitate to post it. I hope by now you see what I have been trying to get across but either way glad you cared enough to try and prove what you felt to be more accurate info.
Lawrence: Thank you for the kind words Lawrence.
HereB4: You know what they say about "opinions" hahaha. Seriously though, there ARE mean averages. Still, you can as you say sometimes experience seomthing more easily than at other times. As with any natural substance there is adegree of hit and miss.
you say "you then need AT LEAST 16 THOUSAND GRAMS OF DRIED POPPY PODS to get a stinking 100 mgs. of morphine!"
16,000grams = 16,000,000mgs of DRIED POPPY PODS 8)
so lets see 16,000,000mgs * .00028 * .50 = 100mgs? FALSE
16,000,000mgs * .00028 * .50 = 2,240mgs of morphine
all I am doing is using your numbers here, so can you see why i don't think you are right? exaggerating like this is not going to get people to believe you, and you are saying someone needs 2.24 grams of morphine to feel it?!
come on man, over 60% of the responses to this poll say they use less than 10 pods, is it all in their heads? and please don't answer unless you at least get your numbers to match.
Yea, I mean normally Rach is a good poster with some valuable info but this latest post is just bizarre. Are you really suggesting pod highs are largely placebo?!
And I suppose the outrageous constipation I and others experience with under 20grams of powdered pod is just placebo too?
Hell not long ago you suggested pods had so much morphine a reagent test on pod material could come back positive, now you quote morphine content figures so low that would be impossible.
cebby
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 158
Probably been said, but comparing each other's doses in units of "number of pods" is useless and borderline retarded. A dose of "5 pods" could mean 5 grams of dried pod material or 50 grams of dried pod material. When mentioning quantity, it should be in a standard unit of weight measure i.e grams or ounces.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Spin: Listen, you are not understanding what is being dicussed, OR willfully misrepresenting it. Either way the result is the same. You need to realise that there many factors such as bioavailability, extraction percentages, all of which I listed in depth so...IF you truly wish to discuss the subject, take ALL of it into account and then see what you come up with.
IT is not simply taking a pod with its average content and then multiplying a number of pods to get the net effect. You have to take reality into the equation. Look at solubility indexes, water temps usually used (90 C or above), and so on to find out what the probable actual number really is.
I wish it were a case of exagerration. I hope I am never the type of person who just seeks to discourage people from enjoying what they like. I happen to love the plant and have , for better or for worse, devoted much of my adult life to it. However, in the end, it is what it is and people should be cognisant of actual facts and not spurious supposition.
So, I guess you can see that no, I certainly do not think someone needs to take more than 2 grams of morphine "to feel it." As far as that goes, a naive person can usually feel 20 to 30 mgs. orally. An experienced user though takes quite a bit more although that can be any number under the sun depending upon each individual's variable circumstances.
Lawrence: Physiological responses like "eyeball constriction" do not represent psychoactivity. In fact, most addicts can also get the same effect you describe, but in terms of opiate euphoria, yes the numbers are factual.
I should have realised that most people are not going to understand most of the issues involved. This is not a put down per se, just that why would the majority of Americans need to know what Technical Ripeness represents let alone the plant's biological issues at that stage? I should have instead simply concentrated on safety issues but I suppose I am a glutton for punishment, hold on while I purt on my rubber suit and put the plastic ball in my mouth.
See, as I have explained a couple of times in this thread already, once the plant PASSES Tech. Ripeness the alkaloids diminish CONSIDERABLY. Many here are naturally going to imagine the plant to always have opium which of course has an average 10% morphine content, unrefined. Once the plant passes this stage though (Tech. Ripeness), it does not even produce as much opium to the point of which, when it is withered on the stalk (meaning the point when you the pod consumer will be getting the pod) it has ceased producing opium and the opium already in the pod has turned to dust and is DECAYED.
Take a pod when you make tea. Shake it a bit. Then, carefully open it up over a bowl or plate. Observe what you see there. Alot of seeds, of course, and an amber dust. This dust is partly shell lining (meaning pod particles) but mostly the remnants of the pod's opium.
Now opium, dried, can retain most of its virtures over along period of time, IF dried at its peak consistency. Naturally, people harvesting for the floral industry do not give a rat's as# about alkaloid content. They simply wish to be able to make money on their cash crop in the most efficient way possible, which for them means waiting until it is dead in the ground before mowing their field and selling it in bulk to Floral Distributors. Follow?
So, at the point at which you are able to even buy your pods, you need to examine POD content, not opium content which is how most people grade alkaloidal content in Somni. This is why I suggested those truly wishing to examine the issue, inspect the Kabay Process and related processes. This will show you the phenomenol amount of straw needed to harvest a minimal amount of alkaloids. It is commercialy inefficient , and this is why people like the Tas Cooperative, or the Indian State producers, former FSU State Monopoloy and such all harvest at Tech. Ripeness. Indeed, to pound the nail, the people that perfected Kabay, the Hungarian Alkaloid Monopoly, ALSO harvested whenever possible at Tech. Ripeness and still only managed to obtain miniscule amounts.
Garuda: No, they offer physiological effects OF COURSE. How could they not? However Garuda, how many hardcore users do you know who can satisfy their addictions with pods? I mean that should make you reconsider right there.
Oral consumption is the most inefficient ROA for morphine anyway, even on the alkaloid's best day. Imagine then a pod 8 weeks past Ripeness? Remember again what I have posted about a naive person feeling 30 mgs. of codeine. EVERYTHING is relative.
I find threads like this to be interesting because it shows us how people tend to think within the box, meaning within their own subjecitve points of reference. Not everyone is you (of course). A person who regularly consumes even 100 mgs. of oral morphine sulphate on a daily basis is really going to find it difficult (to say the least) to get any tangible psychoactivity out of pods.
Then, people really get offended when the "Placebo Effect" is introduced into conversation but they will oh so readily admit without blinking an eye that Psychological Addiction is far worse than any Physical Addiction. The mind is incredible. A related, and also controversial thread that comes to mind with regards to Placebo and Psychoactivity is the recent thread in Advanced Forum where Euphoria from Methadone was dicussed (before being Locked due to the usual squabbling and personal insults). Hopefully, but probably not, people here can be a bit more mature (certainly not speaking to you Garuda so do not take it wrong, I have always found you to be civil) and concentrate on the subject matter and not the posters.
I mean, the following has not been discussed recently to my knowledge but what about "Blind Dosing" which although falling our of favour in recent times was a common protocol in MMT programmes. Placebo should NEVER be discounted.
Also, if you desire, truly investigate ALL the info. I have talked about and THEN see whether you think I am right or wrong.
Garuda, I am suprised that you would confuse "constipation" with "psychoactivity." I can eat ten 7-11 bean burritos and be blocked up for 4 days but the hell if I will get high from it. I am not ragging on you Garuda, I like you, but you have to think!
Also, you are a bit confused abut reagents. They only need extremely minimal presence to detect anything. Certainly far less than what is needed for you to even have constricted pupils let alone "feel it."
Cebby: Great point BUT even with a measurement in weight (although certainly far more accurate) it would still be a gross estimation and nowhere nearly as accurage as a mg. by mg. guideline. Still, if I ever had any hope of controlling the usage I would certainly wish for people to weigh the materiel as opposed to just counting the number of pods.
Still, I myself DO count pods when preparing it for a little brother-in-law with diarreah, etc. It just is not feasible to weigh 5 pods, you would need a microgram scale to get an exact reading, and the gross reading you WOULD otherwise get is about as uselss as counting pods so...
IT is not simply taking a pod with its average content and then multiplying a number of pods to get the net effect. You have to take reality into the equation. Look at solubility indexes, water temps usually used (90 C or above), and so on to find out what the probable actual number really is.
I wish it were a case of exagerration. I hope I am never the type of person who just seeks to discourage people from enjoying what they like. I happen to love the plant and have , for better or for worse, devoted much of my adult life to it. However, in the end, it is what it is and people should be cognisant of actual facts and not spurious supposition.
So, I guess you can see that no, I certainly do not think someone needs to take more than 2 grams of morphine "to feel it." As far as that goes, a naive person can usually feel 20 to 30 mgs. orally. An experienced user though takes quite a bit more although that can be any number under the sun depending upon each individual's variable circumstances.
Lawrence: Physiological responses like "eyeball constriction" do not represent psychoactivity. In fact, most addicts can also get the same effect you describe, but in terms of opiate euphoria, yes the numbers are factual.
I should have realised that most people are not going to understand most of the issues involved. This is not a put down per se, just that why would the majority of Americans need to know what Technical Ripeness represents let alone the plant's biological issues at that stage? I should have instead simply concentrated on safety issues but I suppose I am a glutton for punishment, hold on while I purt on my rubber suit and put the plastic ball in my mouth.
See, as I have explained a couple of times in this thread already, once the plant PASSES Tech. Ripeness the alkaloids diminish CONSIDERABLY. Many here are naturally going to imagine the plant to always have opium which of course has an average 10% morphine content, unrefined. Once the plant passes this stage though (Tech. Ripeness), it does not even produce as much opium to the point of which, when it is withered on the stalk (meaning the point when you the pod consumer will be getting the pod) it has ceased producing opium and the opium already in the pod has turned to dust and is DECAYED.
Take a pod when you make tea. Shake it a bit. Then, carefully open it up over a bowl or plate. Observe what you see there. Alot of seeds, of course, and an amber dust. This dust is partly shell lining (meaning pod particles) but mostly the remnants of the pod's opium.
Now opium, dried, can retain most of its virtures over along period of time, IF dried at its peak consistency. Naturally, people harvesting for the floral industry do not give a rat's as# about alkaloid content. They simply wish to be able to make money on their cash crop in the most efficient way possible, which for them means waiting until it is dead in the ground before mowing their field and selling it in bulk to Floral Distributors. Follow?
So, at the point at which you are able to even buy your pods, you need to examine POD content, not opium content which is how most people grade alkaloidal content in Somni. This is why I suggested those truly wishing to examine the issue, inspect the Kabay Process and related processes. This will show you the phenomenol amount of straw needed to harvest a minimal amount of alkaloids. It is commercialy inefficient , and this is why people like the Tas Cooperative, or the Indian State producers, former FSU State Monopoloy and such all harvest at Tech. Ripeness. Indeed, to pound the nail, the people that perfected Kabay, the Hungarian Alkaloid Monopoly, ALSO harvested whenever possible at Tech. Ripeness and still only managed to obtain miniscule amounts.
Garuda: No, they offer physiological effects OF COURSE. How could they not? However Garuda, how many hardcore users do you know who can satisfy their addictions with pods? I mean that should make you reconsider right there.
Oral consumption is the most inefficient ROA for morphine anyway, even on the alkaloid's best day. Imagine then a pod 8 weeks past Ripeness? Remember again what I have posted about a naive person feeling 30 mgs. of codeine. EVERYTHING is relative.
I find threads like this to be interesting because it shows us how people tend to think within the box, meaning within their own subjecitve points of reference. Not everyone is you (of course). A person who regularly consumes even 100 mgs. of oral morphine sulphate on a daily basis is really going to find it difficult (to say the least) to get any tangible psychoactivity out of pods.
Then, people really get offended when the "Placebo Effect" is introduced into conversation but they will oh so readily admit without blinking an eye that Psychological Addiction is far worse than any Physical Addiction. The mind is incredible. A related, and also controversial thread that comes to mind with regards to Placebo and Psychoactivity is the recent thread in Advanced Forum where Euphoria from Methadone was dicussed (before being Locked due to the usual squabbling and personal insults). Hopefully, but probably not, people here can be a bit more mature (certainly not speaking to you Garuda so do not take it wrong, I have always found you to be civil) and concentrate on the subject matter and not the posters.
I mean, the following has not been discussed recently to my knowledge but what about "Blind Dosing" which although falling our of favour in recent times was a common protocol in MMT programmes. Placebo should NEVER be discounted.
Also, if you desire, truly investigate ALL the info. I have talked about and THEN see whether you think I am right or wrong.
Garuda, I am suprised that you would confuse "constipation" with "psychoactivity." I can eat ten 7-11 bean burritos and be blocked up for 4 days but the hell if I will get high from it. I am not ragging on you Garuda, I like you, but you have to think!
Also, you are a bit confused abut reagents. They only need extremely minimal presence to detect anything. Certainly far less than what is needed for you to even have constricted pupils let alone "feel it."
Cebby: Great point BUT even with a measurement in weight (although certainly far more accurate) it would still be a gross estimation and nowhere nearly as accurage as a mg. by mg. guideline. Still, if I ever had any hope of controlling the usage I would certainly wish for people to weigh the materiel as opposed to just counting the number of pods.
Still, I myself DO count pods when preparing it for a little brother-in-law with diarreah, etc. It just is not feasible to weigh 5 pods, you would need a microgram scale to get an exact reading, and the gross reading you WOULD otherwise get is about as uselss as counting pods so...
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rachamim
Bluelighter
Because English is far from my best language I always try and proofread my posts whenever time permits. in doing so just now I also reread the posts I replied to and in reading Spin's post and the point made about "16 million mgs. of pods," I realise that to alot of readers that will seem like a fantastic amount of pods. It is not.
A hectare produces, even without careful cultivation, literally millions of pods (each plant averages 5 pods per but many have up to 8 or 9 pods per), so that the amount of materiel I described is not ALOT in the commercial sense. Again, look at Kabay. With this process they are extracting morphine, from straw, via chemical extraction which is ALOT more efficient than just soaking it on hot water. Then look at the yields and it should be EVEN MORE apparent what I am saying.
A hectare produces, even without careful cultivation, literally millions of pods (each plant averages 5 pods per but many have up to 8 or 9 pods per), so that the amount of materiel I described is not ALOT in the commercial sense. Again, look at Kabay. With this process they are extracting morphine, from straw, via chemical extraction which is ALOT more efficient than just soaking it on hot water. Then look at the yields and it should be EVEN MORE apparent what I am saying.
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brutus
Bluelight Crew
I've never used pods, but I can't see how this is actually a poll, it just seems like a dicksizing thread. There's no telling how many threads about "How much OC does it take you to get high??" threads get closed immediately. What makes this any different?
Edit: ^ Rachamim gave me a damn good explanation for the purpose of the thread and I agree with him, but why aren't polls about other drugs allowed more often? I'm not trying to bitch and moan, I'm just curious. I know I come across as being a prick a lot of times and I apologize to anyone I have offended. There really is no excuse for some of my actions and some of the idiotic things that I've said. I choose to post this apology in a thread because I'm not sure how many fellow bluelighters that I have pissed off. Maybe it's just in my head, but I'm sorry for being a dick at times.
Edit: ^ Rachamim gave me a damn good explanation for the purpose of the thread and I agree with him, but why aren't polls about other drugs allowed more often? I'm not trying to bitch and moan, I'm just curious. I know I come across as being a prick a lot of times and I apologize to anyone I have offended. There really is no excuse for some of my actions and some of the idiotic things that I've said. I choose to post this apology in a thread because I'm not sure how many fellow bluelighters that I have pissed off. Maybe it's just in my head, but I'm sorry for being a dick at times.
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I do understand what is being discussed, I just do not agree with you. I think what you are doing is dangerous! by telling people they need 16000grams just to get 100mgs of morphine you are setting someone up for an overdose! how did that guy get 500mgs of morphine from 3 pounds of seed and OD? you say that is imposable but it still happened, did the seed sellers sprinkle magic opium dust on the seed before they sold them to the supermarket?
I agree with you that some pods may be that weak, i do not agree that all or most pods are that weak.
every thing i have read about it says that the pods do not lose potency from being dried.
in my formula i use 16000000mgs times .028%(your number) times 1/2(your number for water extraction) to come up with 2.24grams of morphine now times 1/3(for oral consumption) you still end up with 746mgs of morphine.
i know i only have 2 posts to your 3000+ but i still think you are being irresponsible.
johannes kreisler
Bluelighter
STRANGE material
....a friend of mine once drove on a highway in france. suddenly he noticed some flowers with a well known shape. actually it were a few millions of those. it was a fuckin huge field of poppy.(and he found out that there were some more of those fields)
as he found the whole thing suspicious in way he decided to pick just a few hundreds to try them out.
of course he thought, that these poppies are "downbreeded"[dont know the right words as i'm not a native englisch speaker, sorry...] shit as they are grown in different european areas - mostly for the use of their seeds.
so he made himself a tea with 4 of those really small things(<4cm in diameter) "just to try a small sample". at the time he was using opiates/PT on a regular basis(weekly) so had a little tolerance and after all the experience he had made mith PT 'he thought he knew' that 4 of those little thingies will be noticeable - at most. (if the stuff would work at all.)
what he did not know at the time was, that at the moment he had swallowed the last sip of this bloody disgusting tea he had send himself on a brutal and unstoppable overdosed opiate trip:
pupils were pinpoint for over 24h; at the first night he couldn't sleep(nor urinate..) for a second but had enormous visions while the term "itching" was redefined to a new stage of experience...
next day cigarettes still forced puking, which was -u can imagine- imminent anyway. second night was not so easy too and the last effects were noticeable some 36 hour after consumption.
now he is regularly using 2 of them which is absolutely enough but still quite "aggressive"(esp. regarding sleeping ability and puking). every time he is kinda shocked and surprised by their force.
he is still wondering what the hell these things are. I guess it's some "genetic engineered" material, intended for further pharmaceutical processing....
and I personally think that it's quite interesting, that there are fields packed with opiates, which you can freely pick up.
btw: I am quite sure, that 10 of those would be lethal...
....a friend of mine once drove on a highway in france. suddenly he noticed some flowers with a well known shape. actually it were a few millions of those. it was a fuckin huge field of poppy.(and he found out that there were some more of those fields)
as he found the whole thing suspicious in way he decided to pick just a few hundreds to try them out.
of course he thought, that these poppies are "downbreeded"[dont know the right words as i'm not a native englisch speaker, sorry...] shit as they are grown in different european areas - mostly for the use of their seeds.
so he made himself a tea with 4 of those really small things(<4cm in diameter) "just to try a small sample". at the time he was using opiates/PT on a regular basis(weekly) so had a little tolerance and after all the experience he had made mith PT 'he thought he knew' that 4 of those little thingies will be noticeable - at most. (if the stuff would work at all.)
what he did not know at the time was, that at the moment he had swallowed the last sip of this bloody disgusting tea he had send himself on a brutal and unstoppable overdosed opiate trip:
pupils were pinpoint for over 24h; at the first night he couldn't sleep(nor urinate..) for a second but had enormous visions while the term "itching" was redefined to a new stage of experience...
next day cigarettes still forced puking, which was -u can imagine- imminent anyway. second night was not so easy too and the last effects were noticeable some 36 hour after consumption.
now he is regularly using 2 of them which is absolutely enough but still quite "aggressive"(esp. regarding sleeping ability and puking). every time he is kinda shocked and surprised by their force.
he is still wondering what the hell these things are. I guess it's some "genetic engineered" material, intended for further pharmaceutical processing....
and I personally think that it's quite interesting, that there are fields packed with opiates, which you can freely pick up.
btw: I am quite sure, that 10 of those would be lethal...
Well....
I use 4-5 medium (4"-6" circumference) pods in 4 cups water. I also add calcium carbonate (OTC brand Calcia works great, sugar free, orange flavored, 4 tablets per batch ) , and I add 6 oz of lemon juice (bottled) and 1/2 whole lemon. I grind pods into powder in blender ( pulse blenders work perfectly ), then add tablets and both lemon ingredients. I bring water to boil, pour 1 cup into blender, and CAREFULLY mix ( watch for pressure! ). This takes maybe 1 minute. I the add the rest of the hot water ( keeping the heat on it until I pour it into blender ) and set a timer for 20 minutes. During that time, I mix the tea approximately every 2 minutes. Afterwards, I put it in fridge and let it steep for 24 hours. Add some sugar to taste, and drink. 2 cups ( 16 oz ) and I'm good for some time8). Just BE CAREFUL! Sorry post is so long, I just wanted to be thorough. Have Fun, and Be Safe!
I use 4-5 medium (4"-6" circumference) pods in 4 cups water. I also add calcium carbonate (OTC brand Calcia works great, sugar free, orange flavored, 4 tablets per batch ) , and I add 6 oz of lemon juice (bottled) and 1/2 whole lemon. I grind pods into powder in blender ( pulse blenders work perfectly ), then add tablets and both lemon ingredients. I bring water to boil, pour 1 cup into blender, and CAREFULLY mix ( watch for pressure! ). This takes maybe 1 minute. I the add the rest of the hot water ( keeping the heat on it until I pour it into blender ) and set a timer for 20 minutes. During that time, I mix the tea approximately every 2 minutes. Afterwards, I put it in fridge and let it steep for 24 hours. Add some sugar to taste, and drink. 2 cups ( 16 oz ) and I'm good for some time8). Just BE CAREFUL! Sorry post is so long, I just wanted to be thorough. Have Fun, and Be Safe!
rachamim
Bluelighter
Wiggi: I can see how you would see that BUT it really has value in the sense that the number of pods can be a safety issue. Let us say a person was curious but does not know anyone really experienced or knowledgeable. Then they buy pods, or obtain them otherwise, and do not know how many to use. IF they used too much and were opiate-naive they could easily run into dangerous areas.
Spin: "Spin thinks what Rachamim is doing dangerous.": I can also see how a person could think THAT. In fact, ESPECIALLY after my addressing Wiggi above. However, the point COULD be made that peopele could then use the info presented to minimise health risks and then over indulge. However, I will go out on a limb and offer that noone using this forum would ever be able to buy or obtain the pods neccessary to indulge such an idea. Still, from the OP's POSSIBLE POV it might have been such an issue.
As I stated to Wiggi, an opiate-naive person COULD run into problems with what most can consider a minimal amount of pods BUT since my info is correct that it is not an issue. OF course you can disagree, as you clearly do, but I need to point out to you that I have taken great pain to explain just why I am stating this while you are merely offering that you do not agree, aside from your previous post which was not sound figure wise (and a calculation in this post that is also incorrect).
So, in the end, it should suffice that both your and my posts are here for examination and that people are then free to take what they consider to be prudent advice (in my case I NEVER wish for people to do or follow what I say but instead actually research it themselves as I have explained already in this thread as well as MANY times over the past 6 or 7 years in the forum.
Nobody is infallible, least of all me, and indeed I can remember times where I have been dead wrong (although in terms of safety related issues that has NEVER happened yet thank G-D). If you bother to check my posts over the course of time you will see that if anything I try to err on the side of safety. That said, the info I have posted in this thread is absolutely true so again, it is really a non-issue.
"How did that guy overdose on seeds?": We have discussed that ad naseum in this Forum but I am glad that you raised the issue because others might look at it on their own and think like you do. The case in question involved an American man, who according to his parents had consumed Poppy Seed Tea before dying, and it was their belief that it was the tea that killed him. They were so concerned that they took it upon themselves to produce a Coroner's paper (not Report mind you) from his autopsy.
IF anyone cares to review the case they will find that it is, with all due respect to his parents who naturally must have been and still be deep in grief, a non-sensical claim.
To "prove" their assertion the police and coroner if I remember correctly prepared Seed Tea according to a recipe found in the young man's room.
You claim this tea was produced from 3 lbs. of seeds and had 500 mgs. of morphine. First off, seeds contain NO alkaloids AT ALL. As I have explained already they CAN have a SLIGHT residual coating AT TIMES when harvested from Tech. Ripe and unlanced pods that have NOT been washed or treated as is so often the case. That is the first thing.
But let us examine the case you are referring to, the only known case in the world where authorities claim a person died from Seed Tea. IF you read the report, the Tea they made from the young man's "recipe" had 259 MICROGRAMS per MILILITER! 1 microgram is 1/1000th of a MILLIGRAM! I am sure you do not need me to do the math. The claim is bogus through and through.
259 miligrams of morphine per liter? WHAT? PLEASE. You cannot actually believe that. I need to not let this stray from the actual subject matter, as in not letting it stray into ad hom nonsense and allow the information to stand on its own but I really have to ask you if you actually believe Seeds which do not contain alkaloids on their own will be able to produce MORE than 500 mgs. of morphine in 2 liters of a hot water soaking. There is a very good reason why the DEA who trys to Scheduale everything under the sun has NOT gone to Congress asking that seeds be controlled.
While I again am the first to say that one should err on the side of safety, over emphasising will never serve to help anyone. It will make rational people doubt actual information that can save their lives since they will have becomes immune from worry having been innundated with non-sensical information. Like the "Brain on Drugs" nonsense in the US. People need FACTS.
The Coroner infromation claimed the young man died with 210 nanograms of morphine per milliliter in his blood! Do you know how much morphine that is? It is roughly 4 times the amount in my blood, a person on morphine maintenance with an addiction that is nearly 25 years old!!! The claim is preposterous. How could even a slight residual coating on SOME seeds produce a reading 4 times the Therapeutic Level?
I do not doubt that a person could have that in their blood mind you, only that it could EVER be achieved from Tea. You cannot imbibe enough tea to get a reading like that. The half life would defeat the reading by the time you consumed the needed amount EVEN IF it were even possible to physically consume such an amount!!!
If the case even happened, and people I know swear it has (I personally doubt it but either way, actually I think I tried to ascertain the veracity the last time people tried to talk about this), the person would have had to have had a large overdose of heroin to gain that reading, or alternatively a massive overdose of morphine per se, as in RX morphine.
"Did the seed sellers sprinkle magic opium dust on them on the way to market?": NOPE, they would have had to sprinkle Rx morphine on them. All seeds do is give you a stomch ache and the "runs," and RARELY a very mild dosage in the single digits (in mgs.) IF unwashed, etc., etc.
"Everything Spin has read says that pods do not lose potency when dried.": No offence but that would mean EVERYTHING you have read has been wrong. I would hope not. To be serious though, I have already explained how alkaloids are present in pods so it is not only common sense, it is actually a very basic established fact. Surely you do not need me to remind you that morphine TABLETS have a shelf life. Alkaloids decay, everything on the planet does at one rate or another.
To be specific in this case, morphine can last rather long in its PURIFIED state IF kept in optimum conditions (out of heat, light, and ANY moisture) BUT pods are vegetable matter so...
"2 posts versus Rachamim's post count.": I could not care less about mine or your post count. This is the 4th version of my screename so my count is in the 5 digits easily. It does not mean a thing either way. It does not make me knowledgeable, or you less so. I appreciate that you are trying to explore the figures but you are off on all kinds of tangets and are totally missing the point. I am sure my saying so will not matter one way or the other to you but I would not want to overlook anything in your post.
Whether you believe it would be 700 odd milligrams or 7000 it is not an issue (although my figures are correct) aside from academic discussion because noone could obtain the matter needed to produce it let alone consume it. See it yet?
You take 50 pods sold for tea and you are talking little more than a trace amount. Fortunately that is all it takes for most people. On the other hand, if you are into purified morphine or heroin it is going to be a useless issue.
Spin: "Spin thinks what Rachamim is doing dangerous.": I can also see how a person could think THAT. In fact, ESPECIALLY after my addressing Wiggi above. However, the point COULD be made that peopele could then use the info presented to minimise health risks and then over indulge. However, I will go out on a limb and offer that noone using this forum would ever be able to buy or obtain the pods neccessary to indulge such an idea. Still, from the OP's POSSIBLE POV it might have been such an issue.
As I stated to Wiggi, an opiate-naive person COULD run into problems with what most can consider a minimal amount of pods BUT since my info is correct that it is not an issue. OF course you can disagree, as you clearly do, but I need to point out to you that I have taken great pain to explain just why I am stating this while you are merely offering that you do not agree, aside from your previous post which was not sound figure wise (and a calculation in this post that is also incorrect).
So, in the end, it should suffice that both your and my posts are here for examination and that people are then free to take what they consider to be prudent advice (in my case I NEVER wish for people to do or follow what I say but instead actually research it themselves as I have explained already in this thread as well as MANY times over the past 6 or 7 years in the forum.
Nobody is infallible, least of all me, and indeed I can remember times where I have been dead wrong (although in terms of safety related issues that has NEVER happened yet thank G-D). If you bother to check my posts over the course of time you will see that if anything I try to err on the side of safety. That said, the info I have posted in this thread is absolutely true so again, it is really a non-issue.
"How did that guy overdose on seeds?": We have discussed that ad naseum in this Forum but I am glad that you raised the issue because others might look at it on their own and think like you do. The case in question involved an American man, who according to his parents had consumed Poppy Seed Tea before dying, and it was their belief that it was the tea that killed him. They were so concerned that they took it upon themselves to produce a Coroner's paper (not Report mind you) from his autopsy.
IF anyone cares to review the case they will find that it is, with all due respect to his parents who naturally must have been and still be deep in grief, a non-sensical claim.
To "prove" their assertion the police and coroner if I remember correctly prepared Seed Tea according to a recipe found in the young man's room.
You claim this tea was produced from 3 lbs. of seeds and had 500 mgs. of morphine. First off, seeds contain NO alkaloids AT ALL. As I have explained already they CAN have a SLIGHT residual coating AT TIMES when harvested from Tech. Ripe and unlanced pods that have NOT been washed or treated as is so often the case. That is the first thing.
But let us examine the case you are referring to, the only known case in the world where authorities claim a person died from Seed Tea. IF you read the report, the Tea they made from the young man's "recipe" had 259 MICROGRAMS per MILILITER! 1 microgram is 1/1000th of a MILLIGRAM! I am sure you do not need me to do the math. The claim is bogus through and through.
259 miligrams of morphine per liter? WHAT? PLEASE. You cannot actually believe that. I need to not let this stray from the actual subject matter, as in not letting it stray into ad hom nonsense and allow the information to stand on its own but I really have to ask you if you actually believe Seeds which do not contain alkaloids on their own will be able to produce MORE than 500 mgs. of morphine in 2 liters of a hot water soaking. There is a very good reason why the DEA who trys to Scheduale everything under the sun has NOT gone to Congress asking that seeds be controlled.
While I again am the first to say that one should err on the side of safety, over emphasising will never serve to help anyone. It will make rational people doubt actual information that can save their lives since they will have becomes immune from worry having been innundated with non-sensical information. Like the "Brain on Drugs" nonsense in the US. People need FACTS.
The Coroner infromation claimed the young man died with 210 nanograms of morphine per milliliter in his blood! Do you know how much morphine that is? It is roughly 4 times the amount in my blood, a person on morphine maintenance with an addiction that is nearly 25 years old!!! The claim is preposterous. How could even a slight residual coating on SOME seeds produce a reading 4 times the Therapeutic Level?
I do not doubt that a person could have that in their blood mind you, only that it could EVER be achieved from Tea. You cannot imbibe enough tea to get a reading like that. The half life would defeat the reading by the time you consumed the needed amount EVEN IF it were even possible to physically consume such an amount!!!
If the case even happened, and people I know swear it has (I personally doubt it but either way, actually I think I tried to ascertain the veracity the last time people tried to talk about this), the person would have had to have had a large overdose of heroin to gain that reading, or alternatively a massive overdose of morphine per se, as in RX morphine.
"Did the seed sellers sprinkle magic opium dust on them on the way to market?": NOPE, they would have had to sprinkle Rx morphine on them. All seeds do is give you a stomch ache and the "runs," and RARELY a very mild dosage in the single digits (in mgs.) IF unwashed, etc., etc.
"Everything Spin has read says that pods do not lose potency when dried.": No offence but that would mean EVERYTHING you have read has been wrong. I would hope not. To be serious though, I have already explained how alkaloids are present in pods so it is not only common sense, it is actually a very basic established fact. Surely you do not need me to remind you that morphine TABLETS have a shelf life. Alkaloids decay, everything on the planet does at one rate or another.
To be specific in this case, morphine can last rather long in its PURIFIED state IF kept in optimum conditions (out of heat, light, and ANY moisture) BUT pods are vegetable matter so...
"2 posts versus Rachamim's post count.": I could not care less about mine or your post count. This is the 4th version of my screename so my count is in the 5 digits easily. It does not mean a thing either way. It does not make me knowledgeable, or you less so. I appreciate that you are trying to explore the figures but you are off on all kinds of tangets and are totally missing the point. I am sure my saying so will not matter one way or the other to you but I would not want to overlook anything in your post.
Whether you believe it would be 700 odd milligrams or 7000 it is not an issue (although my figures are correct) aside from academic discussion because noone could obtain the matter needed to produce it let alone consume it. See it yet?
You take 50 pods sold for tea and you are talking little more than a trace amount. Fortunately that is all it takes for most people. On the other hand, if you are into purified morphine or heroin it is going to be a useless issue.
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Btw
I have been using painkiller for about 10 years ( car accident ), and I am not a "heavy" user. 8 10/1000 ( loracet, tabs, etc ) will get me going, but only for about 2 hours, and I do not do them because of liver damage and their effects aren't worth it. 5 10 mg methadone, same thing ( aside from liver damage ). Tea is much more powerful for me, and lasts 5-8 hours. I hope to actually use the tea in decreasing doses and stay away from prescription opiates because I believe that the pinpoint accuracy in the brain of legal opiate therapy is one of the main reasons tolerance goes up so fast. Just my opinion, and I might be wrong.![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
I have been using painkiller for about 10 years ( car accident ), and I am not a "heavy" user. 8 10/1000 ( loracet, tabs, etc ) will get me going, but only for about 2 hours, and I do not do them because of liver damage and their effects aren't worth it. 5 10 mg methadone, same thing ( aside from liver damage ). Tea is much more powerful for me, and lasts 5-8 hours. I hope to actually use the tea in decreasing doses and stay away from prescription opiates because I believe that the pinpoint accuracy in the brain of legal opiate therapy is one of the main reasons tolerance goes up so fast. Just my opinion, and I might be wrong.
brutus
Bluelight Crew
Rachamim: In my opinion, you're one of the most intelligent and best posters on Bluelight. I learn something nearly every time I read one of your posts. I didn't think about it how you explained the thread and the harm reduction aspect of it. I agree with you wholeheartedly and appreciate the response.
By the way, I'm going to edit my post.
By the way, I'm going to edit my post.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Scootser: Certainly your choice but if you are able, it is great to switch to pods because as you have correctly stated, the APAP combination can kill your liver. Most people only think of it from the maximum dosage angle, but if regulary taken in a repeated manner even a low dose can cause liver complications.
Wiggi: Thank you for the kind words.
Wiggi: Thank you for the kind words.
rachamim,, I'm at an age now where I have learned to sometimes just let people believe what they want to believe.
You sir, are not an expert and based on your statements that people like myself (very experienced user) are enjoying a placebo effect from pods is pure rubbish.
Get a grip and admit when you are wrong. Unless you have a very serious tolerance to opiates , decent pods will give one a very powerful long lasting effect.
Placebo effect?, Man I wish, lol!! Thanks for making me have a good chuckle.
You sir, are not an expert and based on your statements that people like myself (very experienced user) are enjoying a placebo effect from pods is pure rubbish.
Get a grip and admit when you are wrong. Unless you have a very serious tolerance to opiates , decent pods will give one a very powerful long lasting effect.
Placebo effect?, Man I wish, lol!! Thanks for making me have a good chuckle.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Rhstu: I guess you missed the part about avoiding personality and concentrating on the issue at hand, yes? Insulting me does what for you? Proves your contention? Your doing so will contribute to a tone that will cause this worthwhile thread to be Locked.
IF you want to prove me wrong, by all means do so, but the way to do that is provide facts that show me to be in error. Unfortunately, your subjective experiences are not going to do it.
I also need to point out to you that I have NEVER said, here or elsewhere, that the only way people are feeling anything from pods is from Placebo Effect. I DID say though, that if a person is a hardcore addict they will get no real benefit from them. They are a hell of alot cheaper than heroin, at least in the US, so why would addicts simply not buy pods? In NYC you can buy them OTC stem clipped 4 inches under the pod specifically to make tea, and with the biggest addict population in the Western Hemisphere, that would be the best place to prove your feelings via anecdotal evidence. Of course you could not prove it because no addict would bother with pods.
I need to also point out that I predicted this subject matter would solicit reponses like your post. People take offence when someone dares to discuss something they hold in very high esteem. The natural reaction I believe is to feel threatened as if someone is insinuating that you are foolish , etc. Nothing like that is going on.
You said it yourself, "Let people believe what they want to believe." Had you followed your own advice, you would not have taken the time to post to me. Had you really any basis for your statement, you would provide proof.
You are correct about one thing, ABSOLUTELY; I am NOT an expert. As for admitting when I am wrong, I ALWAYS do. IF I am wrong here, I will be glad to do so as well. Please feel free to show me how I am.
Finally, I am going to have to ask you as well as all other posters to stick to the subject matter and stop bring personality into it. You find me a boor, OR alternatively a boar, whatever. If you wish, you can PM me or anyone else about it but posting it here will get the thread closed forthwith. People should allow those that are able to maintain civility enjoy disccusing an issue
P.S.: You are welcome for the chuckle. I will put it on your tab.
IF you want to prove me wrong, by all means do so, but the way to do that is provide facts that show me to be in error. Unfortunately, your subjective experiences are not going to do it.
I also need to point out to you that I have NEVER said, here or elsewhere, that the only way people are feeling anything from pods is from Placebo Effect. I DID say though, that if a person is a hardcore addict they will get no real benefit from them. They are a hell of alot cheaper than heroin, at least in the US, so why would addicts simply not buy pods? In NYC you can buy them OTC stem clipped 4 inches under the pod specifically to make tea, and with the biggest addict population in the Western Hemisphere, that would be the best place to prove your feelings via anecdotal evidence. Of course you could not prove it because no addict would bother with pods.
I need to also point out that I predicted this subject matter would solicit reponses like your post. People take offence when someone dares to discuss something they hold in very high esteem. The natural reaction I believe is to feel threatened as if someone is insinuating that you are foolish , etc. Nothing like that is going on.
You said it yourself, "Let people believe what they want to believe." Had you followed your own advice, you would not have taken the time to post to me. Had you really any basis for your statement, you would provide proof.
You are correct about one thing, ABSOLUTELY; I am NOT an expert. As for admitting when I am wrong, I ALWAYS do. IF I am wrong here, I will be glad to do so as well. Please feel free to show me how I am.
Finally, I am going to have to ask you as well as all other posters to stick to the subject matter and stop bring personality into it. You find me a boor, OR alternatively a boar, whatever. If you wish, you can PM me or anyone else about it but posting it here will get the thread closed forthwith. People should allow those that are able to maintain civility enjoy disccusing an issue
P.S.: You are welcome for the chuckle. I will put it on your tab.