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Homeopathy: A complete waste of $$, and fraud too!

Regarding homeopathic remedies, I have personally witnessed success in treating a wide variety of health problems in domestic and wild animals of different species. Some of the homeopathic treatments worked, when conventional treatments failed. I do not believe this was a placebo effect.
 
Witnessing something doesn't mean anything, because you're probably witnessing the placebo effect.

"I believe this wasn't the placebo effect" doesn't cut it, because people have been cured by plenty and sworn it wasn't the placebo effect.

Common knowlege: about 1/3 of patients with severe depression will respond very well to a placebo. They swear they're getting the drug, when they're not.

Not to be rude, but you need to do more reading about the placebo effect.
 
VelocideX said:
Witnessing something doesn't mean anything, because you're probably witnessing the placebo effect.

"I believe this wasn't the placebo effect" doesn't cut it, because people have been cured by plenty and sworn it wasn't the placebo effect.

Common knowlege: about 1/3 of patients with severe depression will respond very well to a placebo. They swear they're getting the drug, when they're not.

Not to be rude, but you need to do more reading about the placebo effect.
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I don't think you are being rude ;) I don't want to seem rude either.., but did you read my post at all?

You are trying to tell me that the placebo effect is responsible for all of the Dogs, Cats, Horses, & Wild Animals that I have treated over the years with homeopathic remedies?

I have administered homeopathic remedies to many species and they do sometimes work in cases when conventional treatments have failed.
I do not see why it would be any different in a human?
 
^^ Agreed. The placebo effect isn't just about presumed knowledge of what you're taking. The reason studies are done DOUBLE blind is because the fact that the doctor/carer knows it isn't a placebo has a huge effect on the results.

Hell, there's plenty of studies demonstrating differences with a placebo:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/SpayNeuter/sterilization.htm
Fahim, M.S., M. Wang, M.F. Sutcu, Z. Fahim, and R.S. Youngquist (1993). Sterilization of dogs with intra-epididymal injection of zinc arginine. Contraception 47(1): 107-122. ISSN: 0010-7824.

NAL Call Number: RG136.A1C6

Abstract: Condoms and vasectomy are the only fertility control methods available to males. Fifty million surgical vasectomies have been performed worldwide. In spite of improvements in the surgical techniques, the widespread use of vasectomy is limited due mainly to fear of genital operation. Chemical sterilization offers a promising new approach as an alternative to surgery. Fifteen sexually mature, mixed breed, male dogs, 2-3 1/2 years of age and weighing 22 +/- 1.8 kg, were divided into two groups. Five control placebo animals were injected with 0.5 ml of saline into the cauda epididymis, and ten treated animals were injected with 0.5 ml of 50 mg of zinc arginine into the cauda epididymis. Semen analysis performed before injection showed no significant difference between control placebo and treated groups. The control placebo animals exhibited a significant reduction in sperm motility one month after injection, which returned to normal within two months, and no change in semen volume, sperm abnormalities, or sperm concentration analyzed monthly for twelve months. The zinc arginine-treated animals achieved azoospermia ninety days after injection. The dogs were sacrificed one year after injection. There was no significant reduction of reproductive organ weights of the treated group as compared to the control placebo group. Although histological examination of the testes revealed normal seminiferous tubules, there was atrophy of the rete testes of the zinc arginine-treated group and, thus, increase in connective tissue. Histological examination of epididymides of the zinc arginine-treated group indicated that none of the cells in the head, body, and tail of the epididymis and ductus deferens contained sperm; 90% of the coils were empty and 10% contained amorphous pink cell debris; the coils decreased in diameter and were lined by cuboidal to columnar epithelium; no granuloma was observed. There was no significant change in serum testosterone level of control placebo and treated groups. These results offer the possibility of a new method of permanent sterilization instead of surgery. Zinc is considered to be nonmutagenic, noncarcinogenic, and nonteratogenic.
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Single-blind studies (where only the "patient" doesn't know about what they're receiving) have demonstrated significant bias, simply because the person administering the therapy knows the difference. Double blind is the only way to go, where feasable. (It's obviously not feasible for surgery!)
 
Morrison's Lament said:
The principles homeopathy were founded on do not add up. They are internally inconsistant and contradict everything we know about the nature of the physical universe.

That's about all I have to say :)

--- G.
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Its working anyway :)

energy and matter are just two sides of the coin like life and dead
 
Prove that it's "working". Every serious review carried out of the homeopathy studies have concluded that essentially none of them demonstrate a positive result
 
Originally posted by VelocideX
Prove that it's "working". Every serious review carried out of the homeopathy studies have concluded that essentially none of them demonstrate a positive result
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Why don´t you prove that it dosn´T work.... Its you who are claiming it dosnt work ;)

The mind have power over matter, what im saying is that if you are happy hormones will float in you body who makes you well, if you are stressed, then stress hormones will be released, if a patient thinks he will be well and have a strong mind, then it can make the immune system stronger, so what im saying is that we control certain aspect of our bodies.

Placebo can work, if the patient thinks its going to work.

But that dosnt say that Homeopathy is just placebo.

Now you would ask why.

Answer: The secret lies in the medium, probably water
Water isn't just water, it has memory, and its not just the physical molecyles in t he water who makes the difference, but they make a print, even when they are removed, especially if it is done the right way.

Water who flows and moves in lakes etc. Are living water as opposed to tap water who is less mature, dead water is what is being made in Atomic productions, when you make it heavy. You can make levitated water and its more healthy, it stores energy, like the blood in our veins, energy and matter is the same, just because you cant see the molecules, the energy is still there.

Water is like a body to store energies.
Like the blood in our veins transport nutrients and energies and gives us warmth.

Understand? I would love to be more specific, just ask me accouple questions and ill answer, i can also give you materials on this very exiting subject, trust me it will be known by science in the future
 
Originally posted by VelocideX
Prove that it's "working". Every serious review carried out of the homeopathy studies have concluded that essentially none of them demonstrate a positive result
Astral-Imagination:
Why don´t you prove that it dosn´T work.... Its you who are claiming it dosnt work
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Astral-Imagination:

VelocideX is not claiming personal experience that it doesn't work. He has informed us of how many, many clinical trials have given conclusions that Homeopathy doesn't work any better than placebo.

Answer: The secret lies in the medium, probably water
Water isn't just water, it has memory, and its not just the physical molecyles in t he water who makes the difference, but they make a print, even when they are removed, especially if it is done the right way.
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How so?

Water who flows and moves in lakes etc. Are living water as opposed to tap water who is less mature, dead water is what is being made in Atomic productions, when you make it heavy. You can make levitated water and its more healthy, it stores energy, like the blood in our veins, energy and matter is the same, just because you cant see the molecules, the energy is still there.
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Water flows and moves just like ANY liquid. There is no difference between a molecule of H2O in a lake, from a tap. "Atomic" production of water as in "heavy" is not H2O it is deuterium, a separate particle.
Water is like a body to store energies.
Like the blood in our veins transport nutrients and energies and gives us warmth.
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So you are saying that Homeopathy is the same as drinking water. Right?
 
lifeisforliving you failed to understand my point

You are talking about molecules and matter Im talking about morhpological fields or etheric vibrational energy frequencies

You talking about dead, Im talking about life

Fluid and water that is form and element, there are 4 forms, 4 elements and 4 elemental ether that is the energy behind it

Vita means life mine is vehicle

Its a transporters of life energy

Guess you didn't know that one, did you ;)

Behind matter is energy and mind

Fluid can store energy its a fluid body not just molecules

If you give a mouse food with removed vitamins food and syndetic vitamins, then it will die, so theres allot more in living plants than something dead
 
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I agree, your posts are completely contrary to known science. That is, they contradict long-established tenets of science.

If you remove vitamins from food, sure animals die. They die from vitamin deficiencies. Without vitamin C they get scurvy, etc. That doesn't mean living matter is more than dead matter -- it just comes down to chemistry .

What are these "morphological fields and etheric vibrations". Can you measure them? Can you show me anything that will say "here is a morphologic field". I don't mean homeopathy, I mean some sort of device or test or experiment I do.

4 elements? Do you mean earth, air, fire and water? Water is just dihydrogen oxide (H2O). Earth is a mixture, with plenty of carbon compounds, trace minerals, dead plant matter etc. Fire is just an oxidation reaction that gives off light in the visible spectrum. If you want to get really technical, it's a chemical reaction where the electron energy transitions correspond with photons in the visible range (E = hf --- the photon energy law). Air is a mixture of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, neon, and some other trace gases.

Nothing is made from earth, air, fire or water.

The reason the blood in your veins transport energy is because there's plenty of stuff dissolved in your plasma... such as glucose, for instance, the basic fuel of your body
(I'm not talking about adenosine triphosphate etc -- glucose is your body's primary fuel source). What about oxygen? That's because the haemoglobin protein transports oxygen around your body. It's nothing complicated.

In any event, I don't want to be drawn any further into a discussion that's so far outside the realms of serious experimental testability as to be useless.

My belief is that, ultimately, homeopathic remedies should be held to the same standard as any other medicine -- the double-blind, placebo controlled trial. Homeopathy consistently acts no better than a placebo, and until studies start to consistently show otherwise I think the debate is closed.

Yes, I'm aware there have been positive trials, but if you actually read the reviews of them they're all insufficiently controlled, or methodologically flawed. That's not people "making stuff up" to try and squash homeopathy -- it's a legitimate complaint that has never been answered by the authors of those studies.
 
well, the veracity or lack thereof is always important regarding sources....Dr(considering he admitted to having a total of 9 patients a yr after like ...10 i think..yrs of practice, he doens't really deserve this title) stephen barrett isn't quite reputable

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/default_t.htm

don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for the validity of homeopathy. I haven't tried it yet. But, I certainly hope people don't ignore or try alternative methods if it isn't going to harm their pocketbook or health. These threads and websites such as quackwatch do more harm than good, IMO
 
^^ Sure, homeopathy might not harm your pocket that much. Say you fork out $100 on some treatment, that doesn't work. The whole point is: WHY did that treatment not work? Is it because of you? Is it because that treatment would work on everyone else but not you? Sadly, no. The point is that treatment would not work ANY BETTER THAN A SUGAR PILL on you, and you've forked out $100 for what might as well be $1.

You could have
a) saved that money
b) tried something with some credibility e.g. acupuncture

I might point out that, irrespective of the motivations of quackwatch.org, the articles on homeopathy are backed by scientific studies carried out using universally accepted methods. Quackpotwatch, on the other hand, argues on rhetoric and yet does nothing to provide any evidence in support of alternative medicine, with such staggering statements as:
North Americans have overwhelmingly (by their purchases) made "Alternative Medicine" the "health choice of the people" - for the best of reasons: it works better than allopathic, it "removes the cause" rather than "treating the symptoms," it is cost effective, it makes people feel better and think clearer, and it doesn't have all those horrible effects, and side effects, of invasive surgery or prescription drugs.
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with no evidentiary support whatsoever.

If you're dying from a bacterial infection, is popping ginseng and guarana going to have you back from the dead? Nope. On the other hand, prescription antibiotics will generally do it. It's rather tragic that so many alternative supporters are willing to take advantage of so-called western medicine when it suits them (e.g. when they're in serious trouble), and yet are willing to yodel away about the benefits of a 6000 year old entrail fondling ritual discovered by a yak in tibet because they think it will cure their flu. The sad fact is that alternative medicine usually costs less, and that's usually because it's had so little in the way of scientific evidence to support it. Please tell me how fighting bacterial evidence is "hiding the symptoms". What about surgery and radiotherapy when you've got cancer? Sure, it's not the best method, and there's probably better ones, but how many people with cancer have you seen survive without western treatment? A lot less than survive with it. What about endocrine imbalances caused by genetic defects? Can you fix them by grinding up seaweed and rubbing it in your eye? If you've got an autoimmune disease, is injecting some plant whose alleged effectiveness has been passed down for 26 million years into your brain going to have any effect? probably not.

In many cases it's merely patent laws that stop natural products being used. Yes -- some plants actually do have medical value. A huge number of drugs are derived from plant toxins, or other chemicals. This is why its so important we protect our biodiversity (amongst other reasons). But why stop at a compound that may only be 10% effective, when a single molecular change to it might make it 80% effective? This is what the drug companies do, and then patent it. Studies demonstrate the improvement of effect.

If alternative medicine really does "treat the cause", where on earth is the evidence? Why is that homepathy can't demonstrate its efficacy in any repeatable experiment?
 
I agree that the all or nothing attitude is insane. Yes, you are right, <insert mis herb here> isn't going to be as effective as chemo to remove a tumor. Or surgery for that matter. I think modern medicine is a miracle, but also believe that people would do well to try some of these alternative methods for curing their issues if traditional meds are failing and not relying on "scientific studies" to base their decisions but their own experiences. Although, that being said, I would never choose chemo for myself. Too many awful experiences in my personal family. I actually would search endlessly for other options.

I get a little defensive over somethign like this because I was SHOCKED at the difference ONE visit to a chiro made for my son who had recurring debilitating athsma/respiratory illness (won't diagnose young kids as athsma, assumable becuase it is so common) After 2 years of monthly sometimes weekly visits from the inability to breathe and also CONSTANT vomiting. (all the phlegm in his little tummy) What the docs couldn't fix, a visit to the chiro did. It was the first time he went a week with no problems, no more vomiting ever, and went a whole year without even a cough. It was eerie how it worked so well.

I just can't in good conciense ignore anything that others' deem a quack until I try it myself, know what I mean??!! I am sure it is just the conspiracy theorist lover in me, but I don't place too much importance on "clinical studies" and won't only pay attention to the ones that deem it ineffective when there are also others' that show it is.

Thanks for the thread though, it is a route I looked into a few months back, but something came up. Will look into it again, and let you know if we get any results or not :) Curious now to see how it goes.
 
I agree that people should be open-minded, but my entire point is that the placebo effect is very powerful. Trying to "find out for yourself" what works doesn't actually work, due to the confounding effects of the placebo effect.

Pretty much anything will work for some people. I'm sure setting yourself on fire has some health benefit ;) The key test is whether that alleged therapy is better than placebo, and at the end of the day that's the only test that matters if you're trying to sell a product at large. If I want to buy a product for a health problem, I want to know that it's better than a placebo. There's plenty of products that have testimonials, and I'm sure some of them are real. But if Mrs smith was cured of xxxx affliction by yyyy herb, but she was cured at only the placebo rate (or less!) then I'm going to look elsewhere for a better product.
 
If they can dilute LSD an infinite amount of times, drop it on my tongue and I hallucinate, I'll be a believer.
 
hehe i thought this was funny =D


Herbal Medications: Progressing With Time


2000 B.C.
Here, eat this root.

1000 A.D.
That root is heathen, say this prayer.

1850 A.D.
That prayer is superstition, drink this potion.

1940 A.D.
That potion is snake oil, swallow this pill.

1985 A.D.
That pill is ineffective., take this antibiotic.

2000 A.D.
That antibiotic is artificial. Eat this root.
 
Hi Ya'll, My first post here. I work in the nutritional supps industry. I used to hate to sell Homeopathic supps. But with what is going on in the industry as far as supplements in general has caused me a change of heart. Most supps even if they have effect are over hyped and often mostly placebo. Well, I think from years of observation that the placebo effect is the magical link between our spirit and material life. In other words whatever you can invest belief in can work because, you have the power within yourself to effect amazing change. But for me Homeopathy is a bunch of horseshit. I like Salvia!:)
 
¨/\ yeh right, and of course if we didn't believe that salvia makes you trip, it wouldn't... I smoked 100x extract lately, and as it is all placebo anyway, I didn't even get high. Gosh I can take 5g of heroin and stay totally awake. :D
 
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