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Bupe Heroin to get off subutex and pain pills to get off heroin?

I was by no means referring to "The Scene" in the way you speak about it. I'm not a part of any scene whatsoever, I don't even chill with other people anymore except when I go to get trees or whatever. I was referring to the BL Community that we have here which is intended to help out our fellow addicts, not pass judgement. That's the only point I was trying to get across. People addicted to Opiates are some of the most Emotionally and Mentally drained and beat down people in this world. They don't need any extra judgement - we get it from everywhere in Society already - it just bummed me out to see judgement passed when you didn't really understand what the OP was even trying to say or get at. It was a hypothetical question about a technique he was attempting to cut down his Withdrawal time. It's actually a quite ingenious plan it you ask me - it's just very hard to pull off because of the Self Control factor just like someone else mentioned earlier. It's a very forward thinking idea, just not practical for everyone.
I'm really sorry to hear about your mother treating you like that. I used to be overweight when I was younger and the misery is actually quite comparable to the Self Loathing that you can feel when attempting to quit using Opiates. It's a mind fuck because it SHOULD be so easy, just like all you have to do to lose weight is eat healthy and exercise...........if that were true, 50% of America wouldn't be overweight. I just wanted people in our community to treat each other with compassion when dealing with certain frustratingly sensitive subjects. I would never tell an overweight person - "Just stop shoving food in your face bro" - that was basically what you said to the OP in my book. It's the only reason I even made a comment. If your addicted to Opiates, you're life's already a bitch, no need to add to that suffering man. That's all I was trying to say. No chastising. Opiate addiction is just a beast all it's own.
 
Bro. I wrestled too. For 8 years. Cutting weight fucking sucks. But it ain't shit compared to withdrawal. Dreams of food are bad, but dreams of dope while in full blown withdrawal are a truly awful experience that I hope you NEVER have to endure. Actually, some part of me hopes you do, just so you'll know. You're a fairly knowledgable guy, but if you've never had a decent habit, you just can't fathom how tough it is.

I was lucky with subs. I did a one week taper. It still sucked, but I can't imagine how bad it must be after YEARS.
 
^^
See? No ones attacking you here.
As twotoomany said you ARE a knowledgable guy and i can tell from your other posts in other threads that you have sound technical knowledge about drugs, but you are lacking a little in your views on serious addiction.
This doesnt make you less of a person, it just means some of us have information that could enrich your knowledge base and outlook on this complicated issue.
All of us on Bluelight are judged unfairly by the rest of society (addicts and recreational users both), so lets stick together as a unified voice that maybe could change wider societys views on drug use.
 
Lol, really it's the dreams of water and seeing people with fucking water bottles on their desk during fuckin class that really sucks. And them talking to you and then they open it up and take a sip and you dont even know them but want to punch em in their face. And I'm overweight now, but at the time I had 5% body fat according to the pinch tests, so it really has nothing to do with fat loss at that point. Cool to see someone that can relate to that though. Most people think its about being thirsty and it goes way fuckin beyond that.

I knew a 1week taper was possible. I guess I was just ignorant of the fact that a .5mg dose could be harder to kick than a gram a day heroin addiction. Just because its been longer.
 
^^
See? No ones attacking you here.
As twotoomany said you ARE a knowledgable guy and i can tell from your other posts in other threads that you have sound technical knowledge about drugs, but you are lacking a little in your views on serious addiction.
This doesnt make you less of a person, it just means some of us have information that could enrich your knowledge base and outlook on this complicated issue.
All of us on Bluelight are judged unfairly by the rest of society (addicts and recreational users both), so lets stick together as a unified voice that maybe could change wider societys views on drug use in the future.

Edit: Fairplay to you Alt 14, ive just seen your above post. its takesa big man to admit ignorance on an issue.
Thats interesting about the wrestling aswell, im in the uk so wrestling isnt a big thing here and i had no idea the extremes you have to go to, to keep yourself in a certain physical condition.
 
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Thanks for your opinion guys I do understand what some of you are saying. I am on morphine and dihydrocodeine right now , it's holding me, though do not feel to great but do not feel too much in withdrawal. My plan is to use these meds for long as possible to make the bup make its way out of me as much as possible before I start to taper off these meds/opiates. Surely this is not such a bad idea? I also have Neurontin/Gabapentin too.

I asked about 0.25 of sub out of curiosity that if I jumped off from 0.5 and was off sub for 13-14 days, then would taking 0.25 set me back? because being off sub makes it come out of your system quicker then taking a dose even in tapering off right? I was hoovering around 0.5 for the last 3 months. Got down to 1mg around March this year, I did experience some withdrawal going under 1mg, but I never experienced those withdrawals again going under and under down to 0.4 at one point... It is like a mission was accomplished, as though I got rid of some withdrawals at the 1mg mark...I am hoping hoovering around 0.5 for the last 3-5 months would have done me some favors in the long run?

by the way does PAWS depend on what dose you jump from? I fail to understand how a taper from 0.5 to 0 in 3 months can eliminate or cut down on 6 months worth of PAWS?
 
While i still think using short-acting opiates the come off long acting ones will end badly, it is worth noting that in the UK dihydrocodeine has in the past been used in opiate addiction. I think it was most effective for morphine addiction and slightly less effective for heroin addiction.
I believe it was abandoned in favor of methadone due to methadone having a long halflife and dihydrocodeine needing to be dosed multiple times a day.
My point being that your idea isnt completely in the realms of the fantastic and with a little online digging im sure will be able to find an old dosing guidelines sheet for DHC use in opiate addiction.
 
alt 14 said:
Lol everyone giving serious, well thought out answer to this.


Why don't you just come off suboxone? I know you can taper quick off that shit because I know people who went through detox and were on heroin. You start out on like 16+mg of suboxone and are done in 5-6 days. And you wonder how you come off half a milligram? Just don't take it anymore. This shits ridiculous.

It would take me like 3 times that dose to even get high and I have no tolerance to opiates. I couldn't see it killing you to just quit, if that's what you want to do.
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alt 14 said:
You're right, I don't know how awful it is. But if people doing a gram of heroin(I mean idk how pure the dope is, but that's a lot regardless) a day can get through detox in a week and come out fine with 14 days of rehab classes, I can't imagine .5 milligrams of suboxone being that hard to kick.. What, handing out free hugs and kind words today?

He's rationalizing him getting back on heroin to be ok because he has a tiny suboxone addiction he just can't kick. It's not ok. Not in my opinion, not for a drug addict. But what do I know. I'm in the outgroup, like you said.
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The part that you are not understanding is that using a short-term 5-6 day Suboxone taper to get off heroin is entirely different from trying to quit Suboxone after taking Suboxone every day for 5 years. Also the withdrawals from Suboxone or methadone once you are dependent on one of those last way longer than heroin withdrawal. It also doesn't matter whether they are on a dose that doesn't get you high, one can still be physically dependent to a "sub-threshold" dose, (plus everyone is different).

However I do agree with you that nothing good will come from attempting to use heroin to taper off Suboxone! For 1, you'd have to use it for a pretty long time to cover up the all the withdrawals from the Suboxone and by that time you'd be addicted to it again (if the mental addiction didn't just re-ignite immediately - I assume it was the OP's drug of choice/addiction), for 3 it's illegal and impure and far more dangerous, for 4 you'd still get PAWS after stopping the heroin (assuming you had an iron will and could actually stop the heroin on schedule, which is exceedingly rare), for 5 it's very hard to taper off heroin... could go on, there are so many reasons this is an unwise idea.

Rainie - the pills are definitely a better option than heroin. You really have to be honest with yourself because everyone's situation and motivation is unique but FWIW I did use oral morphine to get off methadone so it can be done. You cannot somehow outwit PAWS though. However, assume the best, because if you assume you will get terrible long-lasting PAWS that will make it more likely - the brain is so powerful.
 
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Cold turkey.. Feel sick for 3 weeks and take that bad experience with you in life in case you ever want to join the dark side again
 
Mr. Meowfish said:
I could go into more depth to try and help you understand where the OP is coming from - but I think it's better if I just drop it here. you don't understand what it's like to be in our shoes and I hope you never do. All this person wants is control of there life back, nothing more. Unfortunately, getting off Bupe is such a bitch that the 7-14 days of really shitty Heroin WD's seem better most of the time than the 6-8 weeks of pretty shitty feeling you get when you quit Subs. It's a fucked up cycle that I've seen too many repeat. We SERIOUSLY need NEW TREATMENT OPTIONS IN AMERICA FOR JUNKIES. Methadone AND Bupe are outdated in 2013 and don't work for everyone. Sure, I'm able to work, hold a job, and feel OK daily thanks to Subs, but it has also RUINED just as many relationships and aspects of my life as Dope did, and I at least enjoyed doing the dope. I never WANT to take my Bupe, I just don't have a choice because all I can think about is killing myself if I don't.
...
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Damn-I am a cpp and decided that I had enough of the issues of tolerance, theft, running out early, and having a doc that would not raise my dose above 100mgs oxy a day. Then there are the ER visits and the young doctors that have no clue that 1mg of Dilaudid for a dislocated shoulder is going to do nothing to ease your pain if you are a cpp in opioid therapy. That leads to a discussion about opiate induced hyperalgesia. It is all freaking nuts!

I was happy after the horrific induction of Bupe that lasted nearly 48hours. Not PWD's. I had a headache and nausea for what felt like an eternity and stuck it out to stay on what I believed a better option. Now that I am researching and talking to people at detox facilities (I work in healthcare) and I am getting a bit scared of this nightmare that I have traded from another nightmare. That is the thing. All opiate addicts are looking to find the least agonizing way off the shit-if they want off. Lightening bolt. After 8 years in pain management and coming off some really heavy doses of whatever you can think of, trying to find the best way (the least objectionable way to get off) I thought I might have found it with bupe hcl but I am hearing more and more about how god awful it is to get off of after chronic use. That is why I refused to take methadone. The protracted WD is a nightmare.

And now, surprise! I just fractured my wrist. Bupe does nothing to relieve the agony and all other opiates are blocked by the BUPE! If I ever get clean and happy, I will submit the remainder of my life to the pursuit of getting people off of chronic opiate use be legal or illegal. There are always exceptions but this is ridiculous.THERE IS NO EASY EASY WAY OUT.
 
milagro said:
That leads to a discussion about opiate induced hyperalgesia.
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Damn man, that really sucks.

I was just reading about that not more than a day ago.

There was a study published saying that NMDA antagonists (ketamine, etc.) reverse opioid-induced hyperalgesia.

Good luck talking an ER doc to give you some of that though (or even simply just more pain killers).
 
Thanks ever so much guys. I do really appreciate your opinions and support.

I understand I will have to deal with PAWS. But during PAWS I can exercise and keep my mind occupied.

Sub pshycal withdrawals last for 3 weeks from 0.5mg am assuming? so far the morphine and dihydrocodeine is holding me. It is always better to work out when you are not in pain, that was my plan to bypass some pshycal pain. I am one of those people who have a strong resolve.. I used heroin for 3 weeks and am not even craving it because my sole motivation was to just use it to purge out the sub.

I do believe it is possible if you plan it out but I do agree it depends on our personality levels. I do not have a long history with opiates or heroin. Sub has actually been my doc hehehe...

I also have tramadol and Neurontine, so may use them in conjunction with morphine and dffs. The morphine is time released so it isn't like it wears off quickly. By the way what is a good dose of morphine to hold you? I only take 30mgs. I take 90mg of time release dihydrocodeine and then 30mg time release morphine.. I also have codeine as well. Also Catapress/Clonidine, sleep aids, and even Ibogaine root bark to use as boosters.

Swimdancer are by chance tinydancer in another forum? your posts seem familiar and your wording seem familiar too. Your experience with sub is similar too except 1 or 2 modifications in terms of duration of wds and when you stopped sub seem to differ. I could be wrong but with a similar screen name, similar experience of subs, similar jumping off dose and posts I thought perhaps your the same person.

Anyway guys so far it's not been too bad.. Mentally I do not feel so clear yet but perhaps that takes time?
 
I know for many, this taper plan has worked, and worked well for getting off bupe. It'll take 10-15 8 mg strips (or however many pills if you have the pills). Once someone is down to 2mg, you do this:

2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0.25, ZERO


It sounds like you are down to .5, so maybe start at that point and go from there.. Best of luck
 
Rainie said:
By the way what is a good dose of morphine to hold you?
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That is going to vary greatly from person to person. Try to find the lowest dose that will just make life bearable. In my experience if you want to not be sick at all while tapering/stopping the short-acting opioids is an unrealistic expectation. Although some people do luck out and feel pretty ok. I'd say get it over with as soon as you can.

Rainie said:
Swimdancer are by chance tinydancer in another forum? your posts seem familiar and your wording seem familiar too. Your experience with sub is similar too except 1 or 2 modifications in terms of duration of wds and when you stopped sub seem to differ. I could be wrong but with a similar screen name, similar experience of subs, similar jumping off dose and posts I thought perhaps your the same person.
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Nope, that's not me. I also think maybe you misread some of my posts. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with Suboxone, what I was on for a very long time was methadone. I just know a lot about Subs too and have helped others get off them. Plus there is a lot of stuff that is applicable to both.
 
boltfan909 said:
I know for many, this taper plan has worked, and worked well for getting off bupe. It'll take 10-15 8 mg strips (or however many pills if you have the pills). Once someone is down to 2mg, you do this:

2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 2, 1.5, 2, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 1, 0.5, 1, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.5, 0.25, 0.5, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.25, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0, 0.25, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0.25, ZERO


It sounds like you are down to .5, so maybe start at that point and go from there.. Best of luck
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That taper does not make sense..Why skip days and then go low? I thought the whole point of skipping was to first be stable on a dose and then skip? and then be stable on a lower dose and repeat process.

Anyway wouldn't it be going backwards if I was to take sub now after being off it for 3 weeks? I was on on 0.5 for 2 months and always under 1mg since March, so I don't think it will make ay difference if I was to taper from 0.5 to 0, considering now I've been off sub or 3 weeks. What benefit will there be for me to go back to 0.5 and taper? I also think sub is too long mentally and strong to taper...I think you gotta pay the piper anyway judging by lots of stories I read. I rather use SAOs to taper off off any sub remaining in my system and receptors...I plan to use SAOs for a month or longer, then taper off those using clonidine and Gabapentin..

Also I felt as though I was going through some PAWS while on sub at the low doses, does this mean I was riding out the symptoms during the taper and low dose? and that will help me in the long run when am off sub?
 
Hmmm...Cod only knows, I mentioned before, the only time (.25 mg IM Buprenex) brought any relief was when my tolerance was 15 mg's of oxycodone
I really believe your receptors need to feel natural endorphins/endomorphins first (again)
 
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So I have been off subs and H for 24 days. I have not felt any sub withdrawals so far though I still feel somewhat clouded. At the moment I have not got much emotions or anything, feels like some PAWS but am not in withdrawals, so in that sense am thinking the H and SAO worked. I am taking dihydrocodeine combined with morphine extended release so maybe that is why I do not have sub withdrawals.

I like to ask how long did it take any of you folks to notice mental clarity? emotions and back to your old self?

by the way am still sleeping alright too.
 
You HAVE to go through WD at some point. Whether its subs or the morphine. I really don't think you'll feel sub WD while still on an opiate.

The question then becomes "When are the subs effects completely out of my system?" And that's different for everyone. As long as you keep your dosage low, a d continue to drop you, you're doing fine. Try cutting 10% and see how ya feel.
 
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