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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

General Election 2015

Which party would you cast your vote for?

  • Conservative

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • Labour

    Votes: 8 16.7%

  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Greens

    Votes: 14 29.2%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 3 6.3%

  • BNP

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • SNP

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • None of the above (feel free to post in thread)

    Votes: 11 22.9%
  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
Vurtual said:
I think the tories are only too happy if the only representative of the working class embodies a lot of the stereotypes that the public has already been trained to dismiss. People like mhairi 'last job was a chipshop' black are much more of a threat.
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That's maybe the stupidest thing I've seen you write on here. I'll come to Skinner in a minute but you think some 20 year old dipshit straight out of A levels is a threat to the system? WTF? She'll be gone in 5 minutes, ripe for being bought off. Has she even grown pubes yet?

felix said:
Normal people become MPs and show up the entire charade as a bunch of fucking nonsense.

I'm really surprised that you of all people disapprove of this, SHM.
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Right, now I've got your attention. Yes Parliament is a charade. And what a grand fucking job those SNP idiots playing musical chairs did of joining in with it yesterday. You think that shows some sort of fight? Bollocks. Your leaders speech, ignoring the polite conventions, is the only thing the SNP did yesterday to show fight. The rest of it was schoolboys trying to grab the back seat of the bus by any means necessary. Very Malcolm X.

Dennis Skinner is the one symbol of socialism we have in parliament. Vurtual criticizes him for being ineffective. Pray tell, Vurt, what left wing figure over the last x number of years has been allowed to be effective? Do you slag Scargill off for the same reason? Bloody Miners leader. Call himself a socialist. Couldn't even fight the government, MI5, the media and cultural hegemony on his own. What a tosser eh?

Did I say miners strike? That'll be the same strike Skinner gave a whole years wages to wouldn't it. This is the same Skinner who has consistently, and that's a word you can't use about many lefties, certainly not those who haven't grown pubes yet, consistently fought the good fight on Labour's NEC, keeping our voice heard. You know someone else who has done this? Some 20 year old who will be bought off in 5 minutes you say? Yo ho fucking ho.

Skinner isn't just Skinner. He's from a whole family of lefties who controlled Clay Cross council for some time and defied the state, and the law, to implement good things. The Labour Party barred his fucking brothers from being members because of it. And still Dennis stood in their path, a constant irritant to the party, and a damn good MP for his constituents. He's never come close to losing his seat. There's a reason for this. Unlike the fly-by-nights in the SNP who will disappear as soon as you lot go back to voting Labour or Green as you Felix and Ceres have said you will. Why the fuck should a man of principles, a man who has stood for socialism for 45 years against the worst excesses of an increasingly right-wing country, be moved from his symbolic place by a bunch of childish idiots more determined on attacking the left (that's the way it looks) than the Tories? Some of us remember when the SNP were always a bunch of right-wing cunts and yesterday's behaviour played up to that stereotype fantastically.

Children playing a game. If it mattered not where anyone sits then why didn't they go straight to the other side of the commons and sit with the Tories?

They might even have felt more at home.
 
I'm willing to give the SNP the benefit of the doubt and a chance to prove themselves as the agents of change and progressive politics they campaigned on, they know full well that they have been given this chance after seeing the scottish people completely reject scottish labour for their perceived 'selling out', and know full well they will get cast aside in the same way if they don't live up to their promises.

It's not all purely about Scotland either, e.g
The SNP is calling for a ‘double majority’, meaning that all four nations in the UK would have to vote to leave the EU in order for the result to be valid.
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things like this give me some confidence that westminster is going to have to listen to the rest of the country more.

All eyes are going to be on the 20 yr old MP and she knows it, I think she has a lot going for her in terms of being someone younger voters can relate to more than the usual aloof posh cunts MP's typically are, also at that age I know myself I was a rebellious fucker who wouldn't sell out and gave less of a fuck about the rules than I do now, maybe she will surprise people.

Given cameron is going to try and push through a load of horrible stuff in the next few months and labour are still in disarray, surely it's a good thing the SNP are coordinated and united and there to really challenge the odious shit the tories have planned.

as an aside, I'm pretty sick of tory voters now saying 'the election is over, democracy has spoken, the majority made their choice so shutup and stop whining'. Arseholes think democracy begins and ends at the ballot box.
 
StoneHappyMonday said:
That's maybe the stupidest thing I've seen you write on here. I'll come to Skinner in a minute but you think some 20 year old dipshit straight out of A levels is a threat to the system? WTF? She'll be gone in 5 minutes, ripe for being bought off. Has she even grown pubes yet?



Right, now I've got your attention. Yes Parliament is a charade. And what a grand fucking job those SNP idiots playing musical chairs did of joining in with it yesterday. You think that shows some sort of fight? Bollocks. Your leaders speech, ignoring the polite conventions, is the only thing the SNP did yesterday to show fight. The rest of it was schoolboys trying to grab the back seat of the bus by any means necessary. Very Malcolm X.

Dennis Skinner is the one symbol of socialism we have in parliament. Vurtual criticizes him for being ineffective. Pray tell, Vurt, what left wing figure over the last x number of years has been allowed to be effective? Do you slag Scargill off for the same reason? Bloody Miners leader. Call himself a socialist. Couldn't even fight the government, MI5, the media and cultural hegemony on his own. What a tosser eh?

Did I say miners strike? That'll be the same strike Skinner gave a whole years wages to wouldn't it. This is the same Skinner who has consistently, and that's a word you can't use about many lefties, certainly not those who haven't grown pubes yet, consistently fought the good fight on Labour's NEC, keeping our voice heard. You know someone else who has done this? Some 20 year old who will be bought off in 5 minutes you say? Yo ho fucking ho.

Skinner isn't just Skinner. He's from a whole family of lefties who controlled Clay Cross council for some time and defied the state, and the law, to implement good things. The Labour Party barred his fucking brothers from being members because of it. And still Dennis stood in their path, a constant irritant to the party, and a damn good MP for his constituents. He's never come close to losing his seat. There's a reason for this. Unlike the fly-by-nights in the SNP who will disappear as soon as you lot go back to voting Labour or Green as you Felix and Ceres have said you will. Why the fuck should a man of principles, a man who has stood for socialism for 45 years against the worst excesses of an increasingly right-wing country, be moved from his symbolic place by a bunch of childish idiots more determined on attacking the left (that's the way it looks) than the Tories? Some of us remember when the SNP were always a bunch of right-wing cunts and yesterday's behaviour played up to that stereotype fantastically.

Children playing a game. If it mattered not where anyone sits then why didn't they go straight to the other side of the commons and sit with the Tories?

They might even have felt more at home.
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You passed the test ;)

but seriously, i'm afraid my knee jerk iconoclasm knows no tribal boundaries. I did stick up for him first though. I suppose dennis suffers by association in my subconscious with the labour party which i have no particular regard for since the mid 80s (and i could argue that dennis' presence maintains a neoliberal party by helping it retain 'core' left wing voters without having any actual left wing policies). About mhairi black, i meant if she actually turned out left wing in practice, that someone who looks and sounds like her being left wing would be more of a threat to the tories than someone who looks and sounds like dennis (quintessential northen lefty), which the public are already primed against. (and have a search back - i'm sure you'll find stupider ;) (this comment for example (or this one))
 
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Vurtual said:
Makes sense - though i can imagine the average joe staring bewlidered at a quadratic equation on his p60.
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I hardly imagine it would be any more bewildering than the present, banded system. It was a good bodge to simplify the calculations in the years Before Computers (and the use of pounds, shillings and pence couldn't have made it any easier -- although decimal currency isn't automatically immune to cock-ups. A line manager where I used to work thought that "5.2" on a calculator meant five pounds and two pence. I'm just glad she wasn't my line manager) as you only have to do a precise calculation of the tax payable within the highest band -- since the tax on the amount up to the threshhold is fixed, by virtue of the band structure. But nonetheless, it remains a bodge; and it introduces problems beyond mere imprecision, as I will explain below.

Anyway, I think the inconvenience of having to multiply a number by itself is outweighed by the benefit of a fairer system. A big one being, that is harder to cheat the system by pretending your money is somebody else's. Right now, you can set up a subsidiary company and sell stuff and services to them at a either a loss or an exorbitant profit so as both your and "their" company taxes fall within the low band; but with a quadratic regression, any amount is effectively within its own band, which is exactly one penny wide. An example that definitely does go on in real life is where a big corporation spins off their entire marketing department as a separate enterprise in its own right, and then has to pay royalities for the use of "their" branding, which is now "someone else's" portfolio of trademarks and copyrights. This reduces the amount of profit they make, placing them in a lower tax band, but without elevating the marketing company to a higher tax band.

Vurtual said:
Combine your nice formula with a decent citizens income (you do the math(s)) and you can get rid of (most of) the benefits system too.
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Absolutely.

Paying everybody the same amount in the form of a Citizen's Income is very easy from an administrative point of view. You don't have to spend any effort working out who is or isn't entitled to receive it, or how much each person deserves -- just make sure everybody gets exactly the same amount, exactly once. Much, much simpler. (Compare the original idea of the penny post: Calculating the price of delivering mail dependent upon the precise distance travelled, size and weight might sound fairer in theory, but in practice ends up so expensive to administrate that even the cheapest job -- say, sending a small postcard to an address in the same town -- ends up costing more than would be an economically-viable flat rate. In other words, you are paying more {than you really need pay} in order to pay less {than someone else}.)

The prices of certain essential goods and services might need to be controlled, in order to maintain the value of the income, but I am not sure that that would necessarily be a bad thing. There should be nothing to stop a supermarket from selling a 79p loaf of bread and a £3 loaf of bread, apart from the fact that if they ran out of 79p loaves, then they would have to give the next customer who came in with 79p expecting to buy a loaf of bread a "£3" loaf for 79p. Of course, if you baked enough of the 79p loaves, you wouldn't have to give away so many £2.21 discounts. And if you baked few enough of the posh loaves, they might all sell out before you were obliged to reduce them, and you can't be made to sell bread or anything you simply have not got. And if the same person keeps coming in at the same time every day, always just after the last 79p loaf has gone, you can start saving them one specially!

Similarily, property rents would be capped, based on the interest on a mortgage on the property. After all, you can rent a house out forever, but a mortgage is for a pre-arranged term (and they even charge you extra if you pay back too much too soon). People wouldn't stop paying extra for posh bread just because cheaper bread was available, or wanting to own their own houses just because there were affordable properties for rent. People just like Nice Things, and even don't mind working a little bit harder to get them.

Of course it's possible to abuse the system; by not doing any work, just claiming your free Citizen's Income. Or by refusing to buy anything any more expensive than necessary, and gloating over the money you were saving by buying the stuff intended for Poor People instead of your own. But it would bore the living daylights out of you. Pride in a job well done, and the allure of Nice Things, are enough to win over most people.

The only people who would be upset by a scheme that would literally make poverty and homelessness impossible are the ones who take pleasure in the knowledge that other people have less than them. And frankly, they deserve it.

EDIT: Thoughts on Skinnergate: He should have asked them politely if he should move. They should have politely declined with thanks.
 
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P8SS5Zu.jpg
 
BecomingJulie said:
...Of course it's possible to abuse the system; by not doing any work, just claiming your free Citizen's Income. Or by refusing to buy anything any more expensive than necessary, and gloating over the money you were saving by buying the stuff intended for Poor People instead of your own. But it would bore the living daylights out of you. Pride in a job well done, and the allure of Nice Things, are enough to win over most people.

The only people who would be upset by a scheme that would literally make poverty and homelessness impossible are the ones who take pleasure in the knowledge that other people have less than them. And frankly, they deserve it....
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Good post. I think the fact that people could exist perfectly fine without work would be a good thing - there's already not enough employment for everyone to work full time - if we'd have followed keynes, we'd all just work 2 days for the same money by now (with this decreasing over time as automation/technology/productivity increased). It would mean employers would have to attract us to work for them - the balance being round the right way.

I like the classic bob black essay the abolition of work http://www.primitivism.com/abolition.htm "No one should ever work. Workers of the world... *relax*!"
 
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SHM. I read your replies last night and have spent a surprising amount of time thinking about your viewpoint since then.

Dennis Skinner is, as you're aware, one of the most iconoclastic people to ever sit in the House of Commons. He apparently "stole" the seat in question from David Owen, back in the day. He shows zero respect for all the daft rituals and takes the piss out of Black Rod whenever he comes in the room. ("Ayup, here comes Puss in Boots!", etc. etc.)

So I find it quite hard to understand why you're so wound up about this. It's just a fucking seat.

StoneHappyMonday said:
If it mattered not where anyone sits then why didn't they go straight to the other side of the commons and sit with the Tories?

They might even have felt more at home.
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I have no idea what the hell that's supposed to mean...? Where on earth are you getting this whole SNP = right wing idea from? :?

StoneHappyMonday said:
I'll come to Skinner in a minute but you think some 20 year old dipshit straight out of A levels is a threat to the system? WTF? She'll be gone in 5 minutes, ripe for being bought off. Has she even grown pubes yet?
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You get all wound up about disrespect to Dennis Skinner, and you think saying ^that^ is perfectly fine? You think she's a "dipshit"?

So much for "burn it down". You are so off base with this rant I can't fucking believe it.

I can't believe I'm saying this to you, but it appears you have been taken in by the mainstream media's shitty, shallow, sensationalist characterisation of a completely trivial and unimportant series of events. The media want to wind up English people about it. They succeeded.
 
What a bloody moron Milliband was. Fancy winding up a whole country before a general election. Fuming I was that Friday n on Facebook everyone was angry. Why the eck did he get involved with the independence thing? It was none of his business. You DO NOT annOy a whole country when we were fucking relying on Labour to get the Tories out.

HOW THE FUCK HAVE THEY GOT BACK IN WHEN MOST OF THE COUNTRY DONT WANT THEM IN????? How? I don't understand unless there's some two-faced people saying they dont want them yet secretly voting them.

Virtual you are bang on with your post n its nice to see someone acknowledge it. There was a massive media campagne poising workers against those of benefits. Ive been saying this for years but no one listens. We're not scroungers. Most people dont want to be on benefits. Im going to be trying to get off them n in work. Theres hardly help with this under a Tory government. People stick on benefits because they're scared of losing them n having nothing n lose any confidence in themselves thinking they're no good at any job n will end up sacked n homeless. Labour helped with this so people sought employment with the help of the job centre n other agencies. This isnt here under Tories. You highlight yourself n lose your benefits. Its a catch 22 situation.

People who want employment should be helped there should be empathy n understanding n there will be less people on benefits. Also where are all the jobs? So many cuts back there are no jobs. People are getting sanctioned over venial mistakes like being a minute late so they're losing like four weeks jsa. This is putting more pressure on the food banks n other charities, possibly increasing crime etc etc etc.

And the NHS. UGH. NoT happy at all.

But well done Scotland for getting wise to the shit, the manipulation n giving Westminister the finger!

Oh n i was wrong over my opinion about immigrants. I fell under the spell of the media n i was just asxwrong as the workers who blame people on benefits for all of UK's problems.

TDLR sorry

Evey
 
Felix, it's not just a seat. It's Skinner and what he represents. The only icon of socialism in the House (which I indeed would burn down, just not with Skinner inside). The SNP have been traditionally right-wing. Just like Sinn Fein were back in the day, which is why it's ok to compare the 'nasty' IRA of today unfavourably with the 'good old IRA' of the past. Nationalists almost always have a tradition of being right wing, it comes with the territory. The SNP used to be no exception to this. So to come to parliament and childishly pick the only icon of socialism in there to attack...what do you expect me to say?

I'm being consistent. You seem to have missed the bit where I said I supported your leaders(in the House) speech that day. How does this make me taken in by MSM who said the opposite? I'm sticking up for Skinner, the working class and socialism. I don't think MSM are do you?

Ceres said:
scumbag alistair carmichael admits he was responsible for the leak of the fake memo about nicola sturgeon that claimed she would prefer david cameron in power http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-32849065

lying cunt! just goes to show you the nature of these manipulative slimebags.
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Unnamed civil servant = MI5. The fact that Carmichael is complicit with MI5 should worry anyone who believes in democracy.
 
Daily Telegraph, gotta love 'em.

But are the BBC really much different? Go back to the article Ceres quoted about Carmichael and the anti-Sturgeon document. In that article, in the analysis by the Scotland correspondent, the correspondent states "the damage (to Carmichael) was done not by the leak but by the lie".

Note the separation of leak and lie. The lie he refers to is Carmichael saying he didn't know about the document at a certain time.

BUT THE DOCUMENT ITSELF WAS A LIE And a lie of similar Zinoviev (look it up) proportions.

Buried in that article is some waffle about how the unnamed civil servant (ie MI5 man) got something 'lost in translation' in his recording of the conversation. This goes down in history as the truth. IE, it wasn't a deliberate piece of MI5 interfering in democracy, it was an innocent civil servant getting his French mixed up.

And the BBC loyally report this as fact.

The BBC are complicit.

Your democracy is a farce.

Burn it down.
 
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