First Non-Oral Only Cycle

Damn, thats a big cycle at that age.
You guys are killing him. this is irresponsible at 58.
Stop the dbol now, it was a good kick off, now stop it.
Watch the BP I mean really, monitor it.
Hate to disagree, but I like Sust, the different esters actually keep my levels consistent as opposed to cyp or enanthate. I don't don't do Prop alone. Cyp half life makes your levels fluctuate like crazy. At least you are splitting the cyp into 2 shots. make that 2 every 10 days soon. Stop taking more things to control the sides, some sides are gods warning to cut back a bit. BPH issues at that level in a 58 year old man tells you something, I'd listen. or don't
If you must, Finasteride/Proscar is the way to go, but now, not later, right now.
if your joints are good, I'd through in some winny at 20MG ED or so, and drop the proviron.
proviron is doing nothing for you now, with all the other stuff you are taking. Poor proviron is getting it's ass kicked in there. Is the proviron supposed to help with Deca Dick, good luck with that. If you must,do the proviron closer to the end of the cycle, and a continue a little bit into your PCT if desired.
What about bloat and Gyno....None so far? Any sock lines or indentations? Time is precious when you start seeing ANY symptoms.
If none arise, you can use the Nolvadex as PCT, works as well as clomid with out the potential vision issues. If you already have the clomid, then use that. How long is this cycle? Don't go over 8 weeks on this.
Have fun!! You are one brave/strange dude
I'm 46, so I'm a little crazy myself. Good luck
 
HereIam said:
Damn, thats a big cycle at that age.
You guys are killing him. this is irresponsible at 58.
Stop the dbol now, it was a good kick off, now stop it.
Watch the BP I mean really, monitor it.
Hate to disagree, but I like Sust, the different esters actually keep my levels consistent as opposed to cyp or enanthate. I don't don't do Prop alone. Cyp half life makes your levels fluctuate like crazy. At least you are splitting the cyp into 2 shots. make that 2 every 10 days soon. Stop taking more things to control the sides, some sides are gods warning to cut back a bit. BPH issues at that level in a 58 year old man tells you something, I'd listen. or don't
If you must, Finasteride/Proscar is the way to go, but now, not later, right now.
if your joints are good, I'd through in some winny at 20MG ED or so, and drop the proviron.
proviron is doing nothing for you now, with all the other stuff you are taking. Poor proviron is getting it's ass kicked in there. Is the proviron supposed to help with Deca Dick, good luck with that. If you must,do the proviron closer to the end of the cycle, and a continue a little bit into your PCT if desired.
What about bloat and Gyno....None so far? Any sock lines or indentations? Time is precious when you start seeing ANY symptoms.
If none arise, you can use the Nolvadex as PCT, works as well as clomid with out the potential vision issues. If you already have the clomid, then use that. How long is this cycle? Don't go over 8 weeks on this.
Have fun!! You are one brave/strange dude
I'm 46, so I'm a little crazy myself. Good luck
Click to expand...

FWIW, I stopped the Dbol yesterday. My intentions were always to only use it for the 1st three weeks of the cycle.

Blood pressure is GREAT. I've always been fortunate in that regard. But I do monitor it closely.

The prostate has been an issue for many, many years now but it seems to be feeling / doing better now.

So far no bloat at all. At least not that I have noticed and I do look for it, or more correctly, look for symptoms all the time.

Crazy? Yeah........I suppose so. But aren't we ALL a bit crazy to pursue this life style? Seriously though, I don't take ANY of this lightly. That is why my diet is flawless, my training is intense, I get plenty of rest and I do monitor all normal problem areas regularly.

Your comments on Sust mirrored my own suspicions which is why I chose it originally. I confess however that I am a rookie here but I had thought that given the "blend" in Sust, blood levels would be more consistant. But what do I know?
 
HereIam said:
Hate to disagree, but I like Sust, the different esters actually keep my levels consistent as opposed to cyp or enanthate.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense. We all know our plasma levels flux up and down from the many esters in sust. Single ester test is the best way to monitor and keep those levels constant...makes it difficult to guess what esters of test are starting and ending with sust. How do you know your plasma levels are even and consistent??

Read on...


So You Want To Use Sustanon 250 huh???

By OuchThatHurts

Sustanon. Every BBer in the world knows the name. Every "noob" has to try it. But is it a good choice for BBers? Not really. Unless you know what you?re doing and even then you would likely have better and more stable results with less expensive and easier to maintain compounds. Let?s take a look at Sustanon.

Sustanon was originally designed and formulated by Organon as a timed-release compound used for androgen replacement for hypogonadic males, HRT, and all the other uses where androgens are indicated. The difference being that Sustanon (sustained release) was designed to be administered once per month. By combining multiple esters in such a way, starting with shorter chain molecules (propionate) and progressing to longer ones (decanoate), you can design a formula that takes effect almost immediately and releases it?s payload (testosterone) over a length of time.

So let?s look at the esters in Sustanon. Would anyone consider stacking two forms of esterified test in a single cycle? For example, would you combine propionate and enanthate? If so, how would you do it? Would you take 30mg or propionate every other day or twice a week along with 100mg of enanthate at the same time? Of course not! Well not only are you doing that with sust, but with FOUR esters, not just two. Testosterone is testosterone whether your body cleaves it from a short molecule or a long molecule. Many people still think that these different esters of the same organic compound are somehow different or ?synergistic?. That?s almost like saying the caffeine in coffee is different than the caffeine in Pepsi. And if you stack coffee and Pepsi you?ll have a more pronounced effect or synergistic effect. There IS a difference but in only one regard and that is that you will get MORE raw test mg/mg with shorter esters than longer ones. The reason for this is simple. The larger the molecule, the more carbons are added which increases the total weight of the molecule. In short, more of the molecule?s weight is taken up by carbon and not testosterone. The additional carbon and occasionally oxygen atoms also increase the compound?s solubility and half-life but that is beyond this article. So what esters are we dealing with in Sustanon?

propionate 30mg (2 days)
phenylpropionate 30mg (4 days)
isocaproate 60mg (9 days)
decanoate 100mg (15 days)

In parenthesis, you see their approximate half lives. It is no coincidence that each ester is roughly twice the quantity of the one before it nor is it coincidental that each half life is approx. double the length of the one before it. Still beyond this article. Moving on?

I decided to experiment with Sustanon after receiving a fairly large quantity. Even though I had plenty, I was still thinking greedily and wanted to get the most out of my testosterone dollar. I started with the twice-a-week approach. A month later, I had no gains, a bad flu, and had used almost 20 amps (1ml) at 250mg/ml. I wanted to know what had gone wrong. It didn?t take long to figure out. During the first week, all that had taken effect was the prop and phenylprop. And 120mg total (out of 500mg) is all that my system saw. That?s about enough to suppress the axis but that?s it. Throw two amps in the trash. The second week, probably not much different and had used 4 amps (1000mg). By the third week I had the flu. Not exactly a surprise with all the HPTA suppression and unstable test levels. Most people have heard of the ?sust flu?? Well, there you go. I was beginning to plan a PCT regimen when it dawned on me? I?m not getting enough STABLE, high levels of testosterone! So not long after that I moved everything to the all to common every-other-day (EOD) approach. Don?t get me wrong, I started noticing results but then again, who wouldn?t? This is a shotgun approach! If you had propionate and enanthate would you just keep dosing until something worked? No. You wouldn?t. The idea there is to just keep shooting the stuff and ?one of them esters? will eventually work. Personally, I don?t like this approach. I think we can do much better. After all, don?t we owe it to Organon to abuse their product properly? SO? how well did it work? I?d have 3 good days, followed by 3 bad days. I was emotional. I wanted to sleep all the time. I had a runny nose. Two different blood tests during this time proved that I had almost twice the free test in my system as the blood test a week later. By this point, my great buy was turning into a great waste. I took 2 months off, did a fairly aggressive PCT and started planning my next cycle.

Here is where it seemed to all come together. I decided to try taking Sustanon as Organon intended, but in BBer amounts. This meant using it less frequently but using larger doses. Using it as a SUSTained-release product. Again, being greedy like I am, I didn?t want to waste the propionate in the Sust so I scheduled the entire cycle dosage amounts based on what I would take if I was doing a propionate-only cycle. This meant 4 amps or 1000mgs. That gave me a starting dose of 120mg propionate (30mg x 4) and instead of taking the next dose of propionate, I knew I could just relax knowing that as the propionate fell off, the phenylpropionate would begin and as the phenylpropionate fell off, the isocaproate would begin, etc, etc. This worked phenomenal and I began the cycle figuring on every two weeks (one decanoate half life). In reality, I played with this until I found a sweet spot of 8 days (approx. half of a half life). This gave me testosterone levels that remained stable throughout the cycle and at levels that were good for the results I wanted. You may need to adjust this time period to suit your physiology.

Conclusion: If I were to ever use Sustanon in a cycle again, which I doubt since there are less expensive, more stable compounds available, I would use it as intended in BBer amounts. I would do 1000-1500mg once every 8 days. This would allow for it to take immediate effect and with a few additional amps of propionate, you could use it with predictable stability right up until a few days before starting PCT. This dosing regimen, in my opinion, combined with equipoise or nandrolone would be a very productive cycle. Given the choice, I would still stick with enanthate. The injections are usually painless, the stability is high, the half life is fairly long. If you don?t mind EOD injects then prop or phenylprop would also be better choices than Sustanon in my opinion. Especially phenylprop. You would likely have to compound this yourself though as I haven?t seen this ester alone very often except in the case of nandrolone phenylprop (fast-acting deca).

This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 30th, 2008 at 8:47 pm and is filed under AAS Information. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
 
Hunterdog, I apologize ahead of time if I'm wrong and have mistaken you for someone else, but are you the same person who posted the Sarms S4 log on another body building forum a while back?
 
nordic_aloha said:
Hunterdog, I apologize ahead of time if I'm wrong and have mistaken you for someone else, but are you the same person who posted the Sarms S4 log on another body building forum a while back?
Click to expand...

No apology necessary. I'm not sure. I have posted on a few other forums and yes I do use the Hunterdog handle whenever I post, but then again, I have encountered forums where that name is already taken. It's the name of my great working German Shepherd "Hunter"..................the best dog God ever made. I've just kept the name all these years.

Just to be clear however, I'd have to know which forum you are referring to. I don't post often. Was he a big massive 58 year old Adonis? :-D He was? Okay, not me then.

The only forums which come to mind are Primordial Performance and BodyBuilding.com
 
Last edited:
Hunter
I think it's great that you are doing many of the smart things us BBers have to do while on cycle. I read a little closer, and it sounds like your training and diet are dialed in as well.
Keep up the vigilance and enjoy your cycle. We are lucky to have Victor in this forum to offer guidance for the forum. I've been reading around, and he is on track and cares about the members. Not many boards can say that. I will also do whatever I can to throw some things out there just for consideration.
Interestingly, I have also read the above post on Sustanon. Let me start by saying that I have absolutely no problem with cyp or enanthate as your test choice. Although I still don't understand why you are doing that 2X a week, but that's also not a big deal.
The Sust post is not a scientific study obviously, it is simply anecdotal evidence, and a poor example at that. But.... there is some really good stuff in this post if you look closely. What this really is, is a strong example of the proper way to take Sust, and having some moron get there by trial and error is beautiful. Reading how this poor sap fumbles his way through the first couple of attempts is priceless!! Finally, the dude says that it all came together when he took it as Organon recommends, his own words!!! It took this idiot 3 times to follow the directions! In his own words he describes the end result as phenomenal. The second to last paragraph says it all. Yet, he even messes that up, by erroneously thinking that he needs these massive amounts for it to be effective. In other words, he still effeng blows it! and so close too.My god Mr. Ouch that Hurts man ....The forest through the trees.. please....stop making it more than what it is..It ain't rocket science, so many BBers want to pretend they are doctors, or chemists, just read the label and do what it says. Real chemists have already done this for us. Thats a good thing for BBers, these aren't research chems like Mephedrone and their ilk.
Enjoy your cycle, and train hard
 
The above read is by no means a scientific study.

It does however explain the general principals in Layman's terms and in a broad stroke. However, I have read study's that exhibit the same results. I'd be happy to try and dig them up for you if you wish. Oh, and keep up the good work Hunterdog!

/V
 
Hunterdog said:
No apology necessary. I'm not sure. I have posted on a few other forums and yes I do use the Hunterdog handle whenever I post, but then again, I have encountered forums where that name is already taken. It's the name of my great working German Shepherd "Hunter"..................the best dog God ever made. I've just kept the name all these years.

Just to be clear however, I'd have to know which forum you are referring to. I don't post often. Was he a big massive 58 year old Adonis? :-D He was? Okay, not me then.

The only forums which come to mind are Primordial Performance and BodyBuilding.com
Click to expand...

Sorry I cant even recall the exact site or time of post. If it was yours, I found it to be an excellent log on running a Sarms s4 cycle though. I was very informed and got good insights as to the effects of this stuff. Yes, we have two pure bred shepards and they are the best!
 
Man I must be weird, ive gone the reverse route, from starting with predominantly injectable steroids cycles, to now only using oral steroids (Var and Tbol).

Back when I would actually inject oil based steroids though, it was my preference to go for shorter esters, and in some experimental cases, freebases encapsulated within hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin for subcutaneous skin pop shots.

Sustanon blows, theres no REASON to use it unless its the only testosterone you can get your hands on. If you have a choice, then Sustanon shouldnt even be considered twice. If you've got the stomach for it, long esters shouldnt even be considered twice either. Best cycle I ever ran (gains wise) involved Spofa Superanabolons (HG nandro phenylprop) and Nordic Virormones (HG test prop), those were the smoothest oil-based injections ive ever had, literally no pain whatsoever. I believe Supers and Viros use ethyl oleate, thats some superb stuff verse the heavier/thicker oils most AAS use. Id pay top dollar to have those again and would probably do another injectable cycle if I could source some, but theyre hard as shit to come by, especially since raw deal.
 
OK...You got me thinking LSN, very good comments
I have a little experience with Nordic, and if memory serves ( It was 6-7 years ago ) Much less pain and great results., and I hate standard prop simply because of the pain. I also despise the eod shooting schedule, waaay to much maintenance. You seem to be in a hurry to see results, slow down man, it's a journey, not a race. I have a lot of experience with suspension products,again an eod schedule, but also, fast results and good clearance times. maybe these are more your flavor. I have no experience with the other one you mentioned
Also, yeah, you are weird going to orals later in your life, or maybe you are burned out from all of those high maintenance products you used earlier. Now, it;s more important than ever that you watch your liver values like a hawk. I'll explain in a second.
As far as orals go however, who can argue with anavar and Turinabol? I also love these 2 at my stage in this journey. My only concern with these is the obvious 17aa issue. Get your blood work done brother. Personally, I look for Primobolan first for it's hepatic safety. I keep the hairloss in check with Nizoral, believe it or not, thats all I need for that. My faves at this stage in my life are anavar, primo, test, and HGH ( my only high maintenance issue, but so worth it ). For the 58 year old dude, I would have Anavar,andriol, turinibal and Primobolan ( injectible Primo if possible ) with his test base at the top of the list. Not all of them at the same time, Pick two with the test. Well. actually the best by far at his age would be HGH, but thats big money and maintenance so it might not be feasible for him,
Finally, I'm not going to keep defending sust, I don't give a sh*t. It just works great for me at any dose. Maybe I'm just lucky, don't care. Interesting story, I have an anti aging doc that runs my HRT. 3 decades of gear has permanently shut me down. I OK with that, I played the game for many years and had lots of fun. Plus I have a decent base when I decide to go on cycle, and PCT is a whole lot easier. Anyway I started HRT on test cyp, had wild fluctuations, luckily, blood work and begging convinced my doc to let me try Sust, I get that online compounded at a great pharmacy. My blood work is now perfect. all in high range of normal, all the time. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but it's mine so I like it. I shoot every 10 days, which is very nice for me. So I'm not discussing Sust again, you don't like it, you don't use it. For me, I doubt that will ever do any steroid eod again. The only time eod was worth it for me was with Tren, or actually converted fina, now that was fun. Tren and Winny had me very strong and ripped. That was the summer of Tom!! best summer ever!!! Bye guys
 
Problem with buying primo is your chance of getting ripped. You might get EQ or just nothing at all. You'd have to really trust your source.

I used to use Nizoral but didn't feel it added any benifit over just minoxidil. Plus it smells like a medcine cabinet.
 
That's to funny, and so true that Nizoral smell is funky. But the chicks dig it baby.
Luckily, it works for for me. The EQ thing does make sense in a small way I guess. I always wondered...how the heck did primo all of a sudden become so affordable a few years ago. I thought it had to do with the increased availability of the raw material.
I'm on EQ now, so I do like it, and use it all the time, it's cheap and quite effective for me at only 400mg per wk. But, If I'm buying primo, and I get EQ, man I am pissed. I don't believe I've ever had fake primo, but then again, I believe that I've never had fake anything.
Wishful thinking I'm sure. I don't use minoxidil, that's gotta smell too right? Do you ever use finasteride? Why did we hijack this poor dudes thread?
Sorry dude, give us an update on your cycle, unless your liver, kidneys and prostate have all exploded. Aww what the hell, tell us about that to, crawl over to the keyboard and update us bro.
 
I use a bit of finasteride but if i use too much it kills my libido. And minoxidil is pretty odourless- its just a liquid that soaks into your scalp pretty quickly.
 
I'm the same way bro- very careful on the finasteride.
We should be glad we don't have gyno as well from this shit.
At least we have our hair, and low BPH.
looking at a lot of replacements for it.
Problem is, I'm very slow to start something new, a lot of reasearch.
I'll prolly start taking Sarms 4... in 2013!!
 
****UPDATE****

Two weeks into the injectable cycle and here are my observations thus far.

1. Previously observed prostate issues are getting better. Probably due to the Flomax. Don't mean to be crass here but I sure hope I can still ejaculate! Ughhh. Hate the possibility of that happening! But I was desperate. getting up every hour to pee a thimble full is a real pain and REALLY counter productive to the recovery.

2. Appetite seems to be waning from the previously observed enormous hunger issues. Probably because I've stopped the Dbol?

3. Yesterday (on day 12 of the inject. cycle) I began to notice oily skin issues. Not huge but definitely present.

4. Also yesterday I have noticed increased perspiration. Just in the arm pits but again, very obvious. Strange in the dead of winter and all.

5. The hoped for spike in libido has begun. (Oh happy days are here again!) Now I just need to find time with the girlfriend.

6. Strength and confidence in the weightroom are still present. Again, not huge gains but still, at 58, I hit it as hard as anyone in the gym at 4:00 in the morning anyway!

I'm still having a hard time fitting in 6 meals a day. really hard for me to do and I know how important it is to feed the machine while working hard and on cycle. I'll try some new things next week.

I loved the quote above when HereIAm said: "slow down man, it's a journey, not a race." That captures the entire bodybuilding mindset. It's a life style and NONE of us will ever, EVER arrive completely, but geeze what a bite in the ass while on the journey.

So...............overall, the prostate issues aside, no bad side affects at all.

Oh...................and the hCG works GREAT as does the Proviron. You got any idea how long it's been since this old man had wood in the morning? What a treat. And the twins are hanging low and full...................NOTHING like the other oral cycles I've done where they would suck up. HATED that!
 
Yo Hunterdog
Sounding great my man The only thing that concerns me., besides your BP ( you are checking that regular, you promised) .yeah I'm a worrier. Tthe prostate deal. I'm sure it's only BPH, but how fricken annoying must that be! Do you have access to avodart, Proscar (finasteride) and the like? If you do, please take a little. Start small if you like, break a tab of proscar into 4 pieces. That's roughly 1.25mg per dose or close to a propecia size dose. If that doesn't work, break it next time into 3 pieces.I'd like to fing the right dose to shrink the BPH, while minimizing the sides of the cure.I'd hate to kill that morning glory of yours. Your girlfriend would kill me.Dumb question, but describe your 6 meals a bit, maybe I can help with some suggestions there. One more dumb question, you know what you are doing with the HCG right?I'm gonna assume you know the protocol. Otherwise, as you may have noticed, I have a tendency to get a little...long winded. So I'll leave that alone unless you ask.
Now, lets hear the good stuff. The stuff that makes this all so fun.
What's the decrease in BF
Whats the increase in strength
Lets get some old Vs new measurements,
Tell us about the new women hitting on you.
Tell us about that obnoxious jerk ( no, not me)in the movie theater you made shut the hell up.
Cmon bro, the fun stuff!!! lets have some
P.S. ask LaSambra about any oily skin issues, I think he has a very cool remedy that I didn't know about
 
HereIam said:
Yo Hunterdog
Sounding great my man The only thing that concerns me., besides your BP ( you are checking that regular, you promised) .yeah I'm a worrier. Tthe prostate deal. I'm sure it's only BPH, but how fricken annoying must that be! Do you have access to avodart, Proscar (finasteride) and the like? If you do, please take a little. Start small if you like, break a tab of proscar into 4 pieces. That's roughly 1.25mg per dose or close to a propecia size dose. If that doesn't work, break it next time into 3 pieces.I'd like to fing the right dose to shrink the BPH, while minimizing the sides of the cure.I'd hate to kill that morning glory of yours. Your girlfriend would kill me.Dumb question, but describe your 6 meals a bit, maybe I can help with some suggestions there. One more dumb question, you know what you are doing with the HCG right?I'm gonna assume you know the protocol. Otherwise, as you may have noticed, I have a tendency to get a little...long winded. So I'll leave that alone unless you ask.
Now, lets hear the good stuff. The stuff that makes this all so fun.
What's the decrease in BF
Whats the increase in strength
Lets get some old Vs new measurements,
Tell us about the new women hitting on you.
Tell us about that obnoxious jerk ( no, not me)in the movie theater you made shut the hell up.
Cmon bro, the fun stuff!!! lets have some
P.S. ask LaSambra about any oily skin issues, I think he has a very cool remedy that I didn't know about
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I'm dialed in on the hCG. I'm doing about 350 iu e5D. Drawing it into an insulin syringe and injecting it subQ to either side of the belly button. It stings a bit because it's cold from refrigeration but other than that, it's duck soup. Strange how that actually gives me more discomfort during the injection vs the huge bore, long needle for the Test/Deca injection. Those truly are painless.
 
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