Explain love, heroism and forgiveness if life is merely survival of the fittest?

[ForEverAfter]

"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man."
-Charles Darwin

It is easier to "Love thy Neighbor," than it is to "Love thy Predator."
Disbelieving in evolution separates man from the animal kingdom.
Really, though, we are all the same.
Regardless of species or race.
We are God's children.

This is one of the reasons I believe Buddhism to be a superior religion to Christianity.
The Bible tells us, especially if it is interpreted literally, that we are better than animals.

Buddhism says: we were once animals.

Morality in the Bible is species-specific.
According to Buddha, the moral code pertains to all living things.

 

[swilow]

I'm not putting any words in your mouth.
Im not saying you said anything you didn't.
You said you don't "overly-value humans above all else".
It is my opinion you may think you don't but you do.
You're free to feel different.

You wrote "You are human, and if it comes down to you or non human ( in just about every case other human too)
you will choose you 100 out of 100 times"

-I did not. Big difference.

What I am saying is that, unlike the views of Christianity and many other religions of similar ilk, I choose not to think of humanity as the zenith of existence and just another part. I have much more loyalty to other humans then I do to anything else, of course; I am human. Again, I just don't think humans are special. Its incredibly destructive, the idea that humans have special privilege's. IMO.

 

[methamaniac]

You wrote "You are human, and if it comes down to you or non human ( in just about every case other human too)
you will choose you 100 out of 100 times"

-I did not. Big difference.

What I am saying is that, unlike the views of Christianity and many other religions of similar ilk, I choose not to think of humanity as the zenith of existence and just another part. I have much more loyalty to other humans then I do to anything else, of course; I am human. Again, I just don't think humans are special. Its incredibly destructive, the idea that humans have special privilege's. IMO.

Again I didn't say you SAID anything you didn't say.
I made an assertion that 100 times out of a 100 if it comes down to an animal trying to take your life (or another human)
if given the choice you will kill the animal before letting it kill you or another human.
That's all I did---make an assertion
No way at all putting words in your mouth.
The words are from my "mouth"

But lets say for the sake of argument I did......
Do you disagree with my assertion?

 

[ForEverAfter]

you do over value humans. You are human, and if it comes down to you or non human ( in just about every case other human too)
you will choose you 100 out of 100 times.

If it comes down to life and death between me and another human, I will kill that human also.
Doesn't mean that the other human has less value. I'll kill a fucking saint, if it means I live.

If it comes down to life and death between me and someone of another nationality, same goes.
Doesn't mean that the other nationality has less value.

Same goes for animals.

 

[methamaniac]

Actually, you did put words in his mouth.
You told him how he would behave, in a particular situation.
You asked a question and answered it for him.

No dude,
Putting words in someone's mouth would be saying
You said...."XXXXX"
When infact they didn't say "XXXXX"
The only thing that would remotely lend this to a broader version of putting words in someone's mouth would be if in fact if Willow disagreed with my assertion.
And a key point- I never asked a question,
I made an assertion.

If it comes down to life and death between me and another human, I will kill that human also.
Doesn't mean that the other human has less value. I'll happily kill a fucking saint.
Same goes for animals.

You're over-simplifying things, again.

I can't help I can make things simple☺
We are talking about human life compared to animal life. Always favoring human life over animal life by definition means you favor humans over animals.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Putting words in someone's mouth does not imply that format.
You can "put words in someone's mouth" by implication.

You can also ask questions, by implication, without the format of a question.
Having said that, your assertion is probably correct... but it doesn't prove anything.

...

Always favoring human life over animal life by definition means you favor humans over animals.

I don't always favor human life over animal life.

I favor my life over all other life, in the sense that - selfishly - I want to live.

When did either willow or myself say we always favor human life over animal life?
Are you putting words in our mouth?

Most people do, perhaps. But I don't.

(You've changed it from value to favor.)

...

I have a three-legged cat.
He got hit by a car 2013.
He's a beautiful little animal.

On New Years Eve, last week, my girlfriend accidentally let him out at 11 o'clock at night.
The fireworks make him freak out, so I was really worried.
I couldn't find him anywhere, which is weird cause he doesn't usually leave the property.
I was on mushrooms and I was convinced he was dead.

I declared - out loud - that I would rather it be any of my co-workers that died.
My girlfriend said this was a weird thing to say, because it was obvious.
I value the life of my cat over most people on the planet.
I'd rather, for example, have you die.

As for an anonymous dolphin on the other side of the world versus an anonymous person on the other side of the world: they have equal value.
If anything, the dolphin has more value - to me - because our species is over-populated. (And animals are innocent.)

 

[methamaniac]

Putting words in someone's mouth does not imply that format.
You can "put words in someone's mouth" by implication.

You can also ask questions, by implication, without the format of a question.
Having said that, your assertion is probably correct... but it doesn't prove anything.

...



I don't always favor human life over animal life.

I favor my life over all other life, in the sense that - selfishly - I want to live.

When did either willow or myself say we always favor human life over animal life?
Are you putting words in our mouth?

Most people do, perhaps. But I don't.

(You've changed it from value to favor.)

...

I have a three-legged cat.
He got hit by a car 2013.
He's a beautiful little animal.

On New Years Eve, last week, my girlfriend accidentally let him out at 11 o'clock at night.
The fireworks make him freak out, so I was really worried.
I couldn't find him anywhere, which is weird cause he doesn't usually leave the property.
I was on mushrooms and I was convinced he was dead.

I declared - out loud - that I would rather it be any of my co-workers that died.
My girlfriend said this was a weird thing to say, because it was obvious.
I value the life of my cat over most people on the planet.

As for an anonymous dolphin on the other side of the world versus an anonymous person on the other side of the world: they have equal value.
If anything, the dolphin has more value - to me - because our species is over-populated. (And animals are innocent.)

Man, if you can honestly say you would rather your co-worker die than your cat than I am guilty in this instance of putting words in your mouth.
Shame on me....
and shame on you!
☺

 

[ForEverAfter]

Ha ha! I win!
Shame on you for not loving your kitty cat as much as you should!
I would rather 100 people I don't know die, than my little three-legged cat.

...

(When you're responding directly to the previous post, don't quote the entire thing. It serves no purpose.)

 

[methamaniac]

Ha ha! I win!
Shame on you for not loving your kitty cat as much as you should!
I would rather 100 people I don't know die, than my little three-legged cat.

...

(When you're responding directly to the previous post, don't quote the entire thing. It serves no purpose.)

Yes, you win.
1st place in unethical Olympics.
Good night/morning

 

[ForEverAfter]

There's nothing unethical about loving my kitty.

Good night.
Don't let the bed bugs bite, unless - of course - you'd like to feed them.

 

[methamaniac]

I don't harm bed bugs they could be my great great great grandpa......
*Rolls eyes and puts on soft sleeping music*

 

[ForEverAfter]

Bed bugs are distantly related to you.
Obviously not your great great grandpa.
More like your billionth cousin.

...

(Apologies for derailing the thread, people.)

 

[limonov]

Explain love, heroism and forgiveness in terms of Darwin? Easy:

Love allows me to form a bond with someone who will bear and care for my children, allowing my genes to advance. Beyond this building emotional connections with people beyond my genetic relatives allows me and those related to be to live comfortable, secure lives as well as allowing for new genes to be absorbed into 'my' gene-pool. This gives both me and my offspring a greater opportunity to reproduce and so on.

Heroism makes perfect sense if it an act, where I am killed in order to save genetic relatives- and this is often the case in such acts (in that people tend to act 'heroically' in defence of people more genetically similar to them against people less related). As long as, ultimately, there are more of my genes out there than there afterwards it doesn't matter if I die.

forgiveness is the most difficult one, but I think it relates to both the above points- firstly it provides stability and security which are good for the propagation of genes and secondly, we are far more likely to forgive people who are genetically similar to us than people genetically similar. So forgiveness absolutely makes sense if it acts to stop me from destroying 'my' genes in other people...if that makes sense? Which is probably why killing your parents is so horrifying and more taboo than even 'regular' murder...It's genetic murder.

The mind fuck is that the opposite is also true- it makes sense to hate, be a coward and bear grudges as long as in doing so you cause greater harm to those who are genetically dissimilar, as opposed to more genetically similar.

(Sorry to but in, but I noticed no one had tried to respond to the title of the thread)

 

[Journyman16]

Forgiveness has bad press. Forgiveness benefits NOT by forgiving others - that's just a load of crap. Forgiveness benefits when you forgive YOURSELF. You heal better, your immune system works better, you release stress that is putting you in fight or flight... So many benefits.

But Religion makes it about forgiving others - apart from letting go tensions, who gives a rat's arse if you decide to forgive those who did you so much wrong? What matters is what it does inside YOU.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Sometimes it helps you to forgive yourself if someone else forgives you first.

Religion isn't all about forgiving others.

 

[Journyman16]

Apart from Zen and Buddhism I can't recall any Religion that suggests forgiving yourself.

That aside I didn't imply Religion was 'all about' anything, so maybe I am reading your response incorrectly?

 

[ForEverAfter]

Apart from Zen and Buddhism I can't recall any Religion that suggests forgiving yourself.

In Catholicism, when someone is forgiven, they forgive themselves.
At least, that's the idea.
It's not particularly complicated.

But Religion makes it about forgiving others - apart from letting go tensions, who gives a rat's arse if you decide to forgive those who did you so much wrong? What matters is what it does inside YOU.

Forgiving others is a vital obstacle, on the path towards enlightenment.
It helps you forgive others, if you can forgive yourself, and vice versa. (Do unto others.)

If I do something wrong to someone and they forgive me, it is easier to forgive myself.

We are all sinners, therefore we should forgive unconditionally.
To bear a grudge is selfish. (He who casts the first stone.)

 

[ForEverAfter]

Colossians 3:13,

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."

John 3:19-20,

"By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything."

Philippians 3:13,

"Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,"

It helps you forgive others, if you can forgive yourself, and vice versa.

Luke 6:37,

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Matthew 6:12,

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Mark 11:25

"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."

...

For all your apparent intelligence and the vastness of your vocabulary, you - again - fail to understand the fundamentals of what you're discussing.

Go talk to a priest about self-forgiveness, then get back to me.

 

[Journyman16]

And for all your apparent confidence in what you think you know, every one of those quotes after your self-quote is about about God forgiving us, not self-forgiveness.

The first quote is about forgiving each other, not self, the 2nd is about trusting God will see us better than we see ourselves when we condemn ourselves (and so NOT forgiveness) and the 3rd is about ignoring the past and looking to the future.

I'm unsure why you think those might actually somehow show the bible as telling us to forgive ourselves, but perhaps hie yourself to a priest and work out what your issues are with Religion? Cast the mote from your own eye before looking for mine... OK? For someone who berates almost everyone with his 'knowledge' of the bible, you come across as quite nasty - perhaps less reading and more feeling might assist you to a better experience of the subject you so love to tell us all about?

Bye bye now...

 

[ForEverAfter]

that's just a load of crap

who gives a rat's arse

you come across as quite nasty

Check yourself.

I've already told you I don't appreciate your attitude towards Christianity.
There is a lot of unjustified animosity towards religion, on this forum.
Your tone is often inappropriate.

...

You don't understand the quotes, and it seems like you don't want to.
You cling onto other people's misunderstanding / misinterpretations.

Buddhism and Christianity have the same thing to say about forgiveness, essentially, they just say it in different ways.

God forgiving you, and you forgiving yourself, are inseparable.