• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Explain love, heroism and forgiveness if life is merely survival of the fittest?

Ransom itch

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
68
To me, as a guy who likes to think things through, something doesn't quite add up about Darwin's theory on the evolution of the human race. If Darwin is correct that we evolved from some kind of primordial soup where through millions of years plus genetics, the weakest on the earth perish and only the fittest survive, then why do we humans jump in heroically in the utmost danger to save the weaker one? Why do we love deeply, forgive and have an inbuilt capacity to discern right from wrong (a moral framework even)? Surely, we should be hardened to such responses and in fact, not even have the capacity to even consider such matters. We would be cold, calculated, amoral terminators, each to our own. Yet, we are not. Far from it. Survival of the fittest and human compassion are not compatible. In their purest form, they are as far apart as east is from west. Can anybody rationally explain this disparity?
 
Survival of the fittest and human compassion are not compatible.

why not


study a little game theory and you may find that the evolutionary benefits gained by cooperative interactions with members of ones own species probably outweigh the disadvantage to being jerks 24/7. for instance it gets progressively harder and harder to ensure you pass your genetics on if you keep killing everyone you meet.

and it's not like other animals don't have similar social structure.... everything from wolves to apes to dolphins.
 
It's more like two opposing poles we're caught between.

God wants to see which one you'll choose and will treat you thereafter.

It seems so basic, but there always seems to be much excitement about that. I tend to make stupid mindless choices because I have low impulse control. But at the same time I never set out to harm anyone so I'm still treated quite leniently.
 
If Darwin is correct that we evolved from some kind of primordial soup where through millions of years plus genetics, the weakest on the earth perish and only the fittest survive

This actually wasn't Darwin. The concept was developed by Hubert Spencer years later. Darwin's theory of evolution has more to do with adaptation to various things, like environmental conditions.

then why do we humans jump in heroically in the utmost danger to save the weaker one? Why do we love deeply, forgive and have an inbuilt capacity to discern right from wrong (a moral framework even)?

Because we're human? Compassion, altruism, and love are characteristics that humans possess.

Survival of the fittest and human compassion are not compatible.

Maybe if you're looking at this through an individualistic lens. As a species, compassion and altruism are essential for the survival of humanity. Without these traits, humanity never would have made it through pre-history.
 
why not


study a little game theory and you may find that the evolutionary benefits gained by cooperative interactions with members of ones own species probably outweigh the disadvantage to being jerks 24/7. for instance it gets progressively harder and harder to ensure you pass your genetics on if you keep killing everyone you meet.

and it's not like other animals don't have similar social structure.... everything from wolves to apes to dolphins.



I think OP is trying to say
evolution seems to say what makes species survive best is good and the opposite is evil.
Why do our morals so often disagree with this?
 
I think OP is trying to say
evolution seems to say what makes species survive best is good and the opposite is evil.
Why do our morals so often disagree with this?
I'm curious as to which morals we have that disagree with the species surviving.

To any of these scenarios about humans we have to add in something most animals don't have - a sense of being individual. Long before the Judaics came along we had the golden rule - treat others the same way you wish to be treated. That's a rule that acknowledges the individual and gives validation to treating other individuals well.

And it leads to better survival, not specifically for the race, but very specifically for the individual. Act like an arsehole and the tribe WILL get together and remove your breeding rights, usually with an axe or spear. Show concern for others, help them even when there is no apparent immediate selfish gain, and you tend to get better breeding prospects. So there IS a non-religious reason for being a moral person, for building and following a good ethical behaviour system.

And as I posted in a different thread, it's ahrd to see our morals coming from the Judaics when we look at just what they did with the system their god gave them. How many millions died, how many societies vanished forever, due to groups who had the highest of principles laid down AS LAW for them.

Alter the perspective a little and it becomes possible to see the Judaic law system as being imposed specifically on those people because they could not abide by the social structures all other groups found just and helpful. i.e. the rules were needed because those people involved are unable to control themselves on specifically the rules they hold as so important in their search for God.

Those who CAN control themselves and act as decent humans don't actually need to have a God imposing laws under threat of eternal damnation. :D
 
Those who whine about love the most and loudest usually get laid. The quiet, dignified ones not so much.
 
The term “fittest” has been mischaracterized by popular culture as connoting physical strength and prowess, domineering brutality and the like. But the sense of the term is really much broader than this constellation of associations implies. The central idea of natural selection is so powerful because it gets closer than any other concept to being tautological without falling into the fallacy (though many have argued it goes in head first). Whatever behaviors an organism exhibits that result in its surviving and reproducing, i.e., that are a good “fit” for it, survive themselves, no matter their nature. That is the “fit” in “fittest,” even if by some strange quirk of fashion and circumstance one day prancing around in a frilly dress while drinking wine coolers confers an irresistible sexual advantage to asthmatic dweeby males, there it is.

Though I believe compassion is as close to a self-evident virtue as such concepts get, it's also true that its codification in various religious systems was integral to the evolution of human civilization -- that is, to keeping the big dumb guys from simply smashing and raping their way all through eternity. Nietzsche famously described piety as disguising the will to power, a way for the physically inferior to control the strong, or to employ morality as a deceptive advantage. Despite his take, I believe we can value compassion for its own sake while admitting and appreciating that it has functioned historically according to naturalistic principles.
 
Last edited:
Humans have a higher level of awareness than animals, due to their frontal cortex development. We can delay gratification, as humans… even at our most low level instinctual drives.

Also, animals are not scared to die.
Think about death for a minute .. this awareness, free will, compassion (and empathy, identification with others)… right/wrong… and growth.
Compassion is part of what will keep our species functioning together.
Survival of the fittest is not isolated, and separate from others in the individual. Strength 'is'' compassion - not weakness.

It's the jumping in you mentioned that makes us human, love.
 
Animals are also very psychic, but they just seem to see it as a normal part of life, and don't make a big deal about it.
 
True ^
And animals can respond in odd ways when their animal friends die they live with, I've seen this - although they don't conceptualize death… and do things to prevent the inevitable.
 
I'm curious as to which morals we have that disagree with the species surviving.

Well for starters nature says that it is better to let those that are diseased, dumb, deformed, dificient etc. die off. But we will go to great lengths to save the aforementioned. Why do we waste our resources on these folks?

Also, we as humans don't really do what is best for the species as a whole. Self preservation is definitely the norm.
 
Last edited:
Survival of the fittest just means whoever can live long enough to procreate, in the most literal sense. It's environment, fitness, and luck which determine which random traits survive to make it through to the next generation.

The English language is clumsy because love only has one expression. In other languages, there's love that is sexual, love that is familial, love that is romantic, love that is deep, sentient and even spiritual; there are many kinds of love.

Some aspects of love can be linked to evolution, others IMO have nothing to do with it because human consciousness is not purely about our animal bodies, but also the soul plan. There's enough anecdotal evidence in the modern world, and verbose explanations in the ancient metaphysical systems, to describe, even if in crude detail, how we are not just these material bodies but more than that. Therefore, there can be non-animal love between sentient consciousnesses that is mutually exclusive from what the animal body is neurochemically defining as love. It's rare though, in today's world. Most people operate from their animal body and not much else.

It makes no sense to forgive someone that has seriously harmed you or almost killed you, yet people do it all the time. It also makes no sense to save someone at the cost of your own life, if in biological terms you are more fit than that individual. We hear stories of people sacrificing themselves all the time for higher causes. Unlike other animals, humans have mind and ego, which makes us do things that have nothing to do with the laws of nature: i.e. completely trash the planet for temporary material gain even though it could doom us and everything else, create and implement systems that can kill millions or theoretically billions of people, etc.

If it were about survival of the fittest and what's best for the species, then humans would be living in utopia by now due to our creative genius.
 
To me, as a guy who likes to think things through, something doesn't quite add up about Darwin's theory on the evolution of the human race. If Darwin is correct that we evolved from some kind of primordial soup where through millions of years plus genetics, the weakest on the earth perish and only the fittest survive,

Darwin's theory is about natural selection. Its not about weakness or strength, its about the traits that are most likely to be spread because they, in some way, increase the survival time and thus potential for reproduction of a member of a species. This has no moral or ethical meaning. The way nature works is impartial. It is humans, only humans, who place values upon things, like delusions of strength and weakness. These things do not exist in nature, but we humans often perceive human ideals and values in nature. Nature is neutral, but yes, your species will die out if they evolve a maladaptation, something which inhibits their ability to survive and reproduce.

Think of a panda before determining that nature will always opt for strength. Whatever works at that time will survive; evidently, this is short-lived due to the masses of extinct species that no longer exist.

then why do we humans jump in heroically in the utmost danger to save the weaker one? Why do we love deeply, forgive and have an inbuilt capacity to discern right from wrong (a moral framework even)? Surely, we should be hardened to such responses and in fact, not even have the capacity to even consider such matters. We would be cold, calculated, amoral terminators, each to our own. Yet, we are not. Far from it. Survival of the fittest and human compassion are not compatible. In their purest form, they are as far apart as east is from west. Can anybody rationally explain this disparity?

Are you sure its not your fairy-tale vision of goodness that does not exist and is incongruous with reality? What makes you think that a moral framework exists? How can we possibly innately know right from wrong, when neither category can be shown to exist in nature, from whence we emerged? Perhaps this moral framework is our instincts, for which we should derive no pride given that we had no hand in it. It strikes me as very Christian, to try and raise humans up above all others on earth, and indeed, this over-measuring of our capacities has destroyed so much of our inheritance. Far from being self-aware caretakers, we act out are instinctive animal nature on a global scale, from which we cannot turn back. I'm sorry, I simply do not see humans as any better then any other forms of life.

I certainly believe in compassion, love, forgiveness, altruism, and I see that they absolutely exist, complete, alongside hatred, fear, envy, violence. There is no disparity in the manifestation of our fictitious nobility. The only disparity and cognitive dissonance that I perceive is the denial of the true nature of humanity as separate from, and above, the weeping world.

Again though, I think the differing points of view on this topic are related to our perception of a deity or higher power. I don't believe in god, therefore I don't overly-value humans above all else.

edit: Though I see with some sorrow how seperate we all are from our true heritage, as citizens of earth which we share with life forms way more plentiful then ourselves. IMO, it is this seperation from the natural world that has caused us all this grief. If only we could go back to our toothless, dirty, caveman past! :D
 
Last edited:
Darwin's theory is about natural selection.

I would say at its core it's about accumulated random mutations that lead to new complexity. Mutations are the mechanism that can "add" info to the genome.
Which is why it is hard to believe theory seeing expressed mutations almost always (I am being generous with almost) bring disease, deformity, deficiency, or death. Not the best mechanism for creating new beneficial information that gives rise to complex structures and functions.
But I digress.....

Willow said:
It is humans, only humans, who place values upon things, like delusions of strength and weakness.
Female animals seem to always perfer stronger mate. Strength and weakness are not delusions in nature. Being strong or weak is a real thing.
What contradicting evidence makes them a delusion?
You would be better to argue that humans are the only ones who at times DON'T place values on strength and weakness.
Still hard argument tho.

Willow said:
Nature is neutral, but yes, your species will die out if they evolve a maladaptation, something which inhibits their ability to survive and reproduce.

Nature is far from neutral. Strong and cunning almost always gets the win.

Willow said:
I'm sorry, I simply do not see humans as any better then any other forms of life.
Mate, if you saw a dingo trying to eat a baby and you had a gun how fast would you smoke that Dingo?
Moral code is for man not animals.

Willow said:
I certainly believe in compassion, love, forgiveness, altruism, and I see that they absolutely exist, complete, alongside hatred, fear, envy, violence.

You believe in these things but don't believe we can know right from wrong?
If you believe they absolutely exist, who or what makes them absolute?

I don't believe in god, therefore I don't overly-value humans above all else.

Respectfully, Yeah you do over value humans. You are human, and if it comes down to you or non human ( in just about every case other human too)
you will choose you 100 out of 100 times.
Is that not the upside of value?
 
I would say at its core it's about accumulated random mutations that lead to new complexity. Mutations are the mechanism that can "add" info to the genome.
Which is why it is hard to believe theory seeing expressed mutations almost always (I am being generous with almost) bring disease, deformity, deficiency, or death. Not the best mechanism for creating new beneficial information that gives rise to complex structures and functions.
But I digress.....

Its about "the origin of the species through means of natural selection". That is what is at its core. Natural selection is not about intent or valuing, its about what works. Your statement questioning the benefit of mutation is belied by the entire set up that we exist within.

Let's not do this debate though, its extremely tedious. :|

Female animals seem to always perfer stronger mate. Strength and weakness are not delusions in nature. Being strong or weak is a real thing.
What contradicting evidence makes them a delusion?
You would be better to argue that humans are the only ones who at times DON'T place values on strength and weakness.
Still hard argument tho.

Nature is far from neutral. Strong and cunning almost always gets the win.

Both of those statements are examples of anthropomorphism. I think its a bit arrogant to decide that we understand the value systems of non-humans. Some species seem to feature the stereotypical sexual dimorphism that we see in humans, that being men being larger/more muscular then women. That this increased muscle can also translate to physical strength is but one aspect of this disparity. Of course, humans will perceive these as very specific qualities for which they have little evidence besides their own senses.

Nature is neutral. That a particular species survive or perish is immaterial to the overriding picture. Nature isn't playing on any one side, rather each emergent mutation is either reproduced or not, and that is as far as it goes. The death of a species, something that I see as hugely tragic, is not important to nature- in the slightest.

You believe in these things but don't believe we can know right from wrong?
If you believe they absolutely exist, who or what makes them absolute?

You misunderstand me. I am saying that I do not deny the truth of the human inner world- for humans. I've stated a hundred times that I beleive that values such as love and compassion and right and wrong are essentially human fictions or allegories to explain internal, subjective experiences, and that outside the human mind, these things don't seem to objectively exist. Humans seeing human traits in the external world IS a human trait.

Respectfully, Yeah you do over value humans. You are human, and if it comes down to you or non human ( in just about every case other human too)
you will choose you 100 out of 100 times.
Is that not the upside of value?

Respectfully, your habit of putting words into my mouth is annoying. I don't think that humans are better then anything else. That doesn't mean I am not biased in my actions towards humans. Ask yourself, how could I not be? I am only trying, in my life, to be a better person and that means denying the tendency towards anthropocentrism. A better person is not just a better person because of what they do for humans; in fact, quite the opposite.
 
Willow said:
Respectfully, your habit of putting words into my mouth is annoying. I don't think that humans are better then anything else. That doesn't mean I am not biased in my actions towards humans. Ask yourself, how could I not be? I am only trying, in my life, to be a better person and that means denying the tendency towards anthropocentrism. A better person is not just a better person because of what they do for humans; in fact, quite the opposite.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth.
Im not saying you said anything you didn't.
You said you don't "overly-value humans above all else".
It is my opinion you may think you don't but you do.
You're free to feel different.
 
While I have a biological tendency to value human life higher than other forms of life, I can see beyond that. Similarly, although I often feel chemically / hormonally compelled to stick my dick in every woman I see, I can see beyond lust. On a logical / philosophical level, I don't value humans higher than other forms of life. Transcending the needs of self / family / species - incidentally - is one of the many obstacles on the path towards enlightenment.
 
^
Do you put the value of a human above a tree, a bug, or a colony of bacteria?
Just curious
 
No, I don't.

For practical reasons, I must kill bacteria and bugs in order to survive.
Beyond that biological imperative, I acknowledge that life is life.

Let's assume two things:
a) dolphins value dolphin life above human life.
b) humans value human life above dolphin life.

Which one, if either of them, are correct?

Is human life objectively more valuable than dolphin life?
Is dolphin life objectively more valuable than human life?

Or, beyond survival and selfishness, is life just life?
And aren't we - as highly sentient beings - capable of seeing that?
 
Top