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EU Referendum Discussion: Well That Worked Out Well Didn't It

Brexit, should we stay or should we go?

  • Total voters
    44
Shimmer.Fade said:
France seems dead set on stopping it for the time being. I believe they will until they get something better out of the deal ;)

It is not a sure thing here either. Many politicians are calling for more time, and lamenting overly complicated English legal jargon which will take time to sort out.

I totally agree with you that there are times for radical change. I just think we have seen many radical changes recently, and getting back to a more stable norm would be a better spring board for a more healthy type of change.

Who knows? I know if these plutarchs attempt to go much further the time for radical change will become more and more appropriate. It is just with these things there will always be opportunists and populists looking to high-jack the momentum. This is why I feel we must be careful, especially in modern times. If we are not able to create the change we need to benefit the majority of us through political means then it is time IMO to start thinking about more drastic measures. We aren't far off from such a time, but our systems are still working to some extent. Let's see what happens with the continued outing of wealthy elites avoiding taxes, and the laws which must be changed to address this. If nothing happens we will be approaching a corner.
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Well i tend to think that protest, strikes and civil disobedience, shading into rebellion, are political means, and some of the best tools in the arsenal; democracy doesn't end at the ballot box, and when it does you get the pseudo democracy we currently live in.

On further reading, France and Italy deciding against TTIP will only affect their implementation of it and won't necessarily affect the wider treaty's progress (and i don't believe them anyway); i had heard of some of the opposition building to it in Germany, but again i suspect the usual suspects will still be pushing for it, with all their usual advantages.

From Cameron's enthusiastic plea for TTIP yesterday, it doesn't look like UK government will start opposing it any time soon; despite the capital made out of it by the brexit tories, many people insist that it's the UK that have been the ones pushing it most in the EU, just like we've been the ones holding back bank and tax haven regulation (cos we run most of the tax havens and the city (the biggest tax haven)) - i expect any post-brexit tory (or tory/UKIP, or blairite new labour/dimleb) government to be just as enthusiastic for it - these greasy careeroids know what side their corruption is buttered on.
 
The Brussels Business - Interesting documentary (been on RT a couple of times) about the murky world of EU lobbying and the corporate influence at the heart of the commision; specificaly the European Rountable of industrialists (don't know if any relation to cecil rhodes' creation (probably just in spirit)). A little bit nerdy but very relevant and sinister - interviews with lobbyists are revealing. Corruption which doesn't even seem to realise it's corruption, just the way of the world/business; same as in britain (of course while looking down our noses at all those 'corrupt' third world countries who are still as uncouth as to use brown envelopes).

Also, clip of Tony Gosling talking about the nazis setting up a cartel system at the end of the war which (he suggests) may have been the prototype of the EU (this wouldn't surprise me, though i'd consider the oligarchs/bankers behind hitler to have more in common with oligarchs of the rest of the world (and even be the same people), than german people particularly; same as all oligarchs (i just remember about the 'business plot' planned against FDR to set up a fascist government in US about the same time as Hitler got going)

(sorry i haven't got any pro EU videos - just turn on the telly)
 
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Hard choice, personally if I were British I'd vote for an exit, mostly hoping that it would bring a slowing of the inward migration flow, as unrealistic as it might seem.

Either way you're run by effete cunts whether in Westminster or Brussels.

In a way I'd say you now have a chance to get out on your own terms before the whole house of cards comes down, I think inevitably, the EU is doomed, within the next decade it will all end. The euro currency union as it is, it's not sustainable. I believe we(Italy) will end up like Greece in the next few years, this would lead to an increase in nationalism, a blame-it-all on the Brussels bureaucrat mindset, a few riots, and a quick move back to the lira. Unlike Greece we actually produce quite a bit and do not rely on imports at least for essential stuff like food and medicine, hopefully given we'll be run by a right wing junta, maybe Putin will make us a discount for the gas in exchange of a couple of Mediterreanean military bases.

Get out now, before you're made to bail out a whole legion of bankrupt Mediterreanean countries.
 
So what is everyone thinking now? After changing between in and out countless times I think I've settled on out.

I imagine there will be temporarily worse economic conditions if we do leave but think it's only a matter of time before the euro goes bang. Probably better to get out now before the whole lot comes down.
 
I was all for in but am worried about the future prospects of a job for my granchildren. Just staryted a new job and nearly half of the workforce are Polish. Now don,t get me wrong i like them and many are now good friends but where does it stop. I dont blame them for searching a better life and i know for sure i have not the balls to do it. Then if you vote out i reckon the working man will get shafted as we wont have our european rights and these tories would have us all back in the workhouse. So as you can see im in a quandary. I just wish we were told the truth and not all this scaremongering.
 
I must say I'm jolly well ashamed to be British at the moment. We shouldn't even be contemplating pulling out of Europe and retreating like cowards. If I were me, I'd have us all shot as traitors first! We need to hark back to the colonial days when this once great nation would have taken full advantage of the failing economies by marching in and giving Johnny Foreigner a right good kicking to show him who's boss. Then in return for bringing civilisation to these savages and allowing them to raise the Union Flag over every official building in Europe, they can provide us with slaves, er, I mean labourers, and prostitutes to keep our lads' peckers up at the front line. This is the British way, and the only way...
 
zombywoof said:
I was all for in but am worried about the future prospects of a job for my granchildren. Just staryted a new job and nearly half of the workforce are Polish. Now don,t get me wrong i like them and many are now good friends but where does it stop. I dont blame them for searching a better life and i know for sure i have not the balls to do it. Then if you vote out i reckon the working man will get shafted as we wont have our european rights and these tories would have us all back in the workhouse. So as you can see im in a quandary. I just wish we were told the truth and not all this scaremongering.
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Freedom of movement would inevitably by part of the trade deals ( that it would take a decade to negotiate )

Just ask Norway.

People move.

It's part of life, always has been, now even more so.
 
Well who am i to complain anyway after all the Irish have built half of the world even us up north
 
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In, not keen on the tories having any more power than they do now.
 
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

Working Conditions - Working Time Directive
Working Time Directive

To protect workers’ health and safety, working hours must meet minimum standards applicable throughout the EU.

The EU’s Working Time Directive (2003/88/EC) requires EU countries to guarantee the following rights for all workers:

a limit to weekly working hours, which must not exceed 48 hours on average, including any overtime
a minimum daily rest period of 11 consecutive hours in every 24
a rest break during working hours if the worker is on duty for longer than 6 hours
a minimum weekly rest period of 24 uninterrupted hours for each 7-day period, in addition to the 11 hours' daily rest
paid annual leave of at least 4 weeks per year
extra protection for night work, e.g.
average working hours must not exceed 8 hours per 24-hour period,
night workers must not perform heavy or dangerous work for longer than 8 hours in any 24-hour period,
night workers have the right to free health assessments and, under certain circumstances, to transfer to day work.

This alone is 75% of the way there for making me want to remain. Even the biggest employers would happily breach these small concessions to their workers comfort and well being if they could get away with it.

There would also be huge economic uncertainty for a couple of years if we left. Which leaves my mind virtually made up. Some kind of sustained campaign needs to made to make the EU more democratic though, it's not accaptable to have unelected civil servants making decisions that affect us, if that really is the case.
 
Despite my online persona as a grumpy owd cunt, I actually believe we should stay in the EU. The whole brexit campaign appears to be a veneer for a bunch of racist bastards banging on about 'them bloody forrins coming here stealing our jobs...' I have lot of respect for people who try to make a better life 100s of miles away and are prepared to work for it - unlike the fat lazy daily mail reading scroungers who do all the fuckin moaning. We have a very large Polish community round my way, and on the whole they are brilliant people (and their shops are great, full of cheap beer and vodka ;) ). My lad's best friend is Polish and his family are the nicest, hard working, humble neighbours you could wish to meet.

I've actually taken the time today to register to vote in this referendum - I never bother voting in UK elections, so I'm not sure if I'm even on the electoral roll.

But I really think we should be looking to a united world, not regressing into an insular bunch of xenophobic retards...
 
I sent off my postal vote yesterday to stay in...

First time I've voted in my life.....well I'm off work and bored!!
 
mydrugbuddy said:
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

Working Conditions - Working Time Directive
Working Time Directive
....
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The working week would be even shorter if it wasn't for good old blighty throwing our weight around in europe (France has got 35! - the french neolibs are trying to crush this currently, hence the tasty riots) - along with the US, britain used its influence to whittle away what was becoming a 'social europe' and make it into the neoliberal organisation it is today. While it still retains stuff like the working time directive, it also has all sorts of 'flexible labour market' bollocks thanks to neoliberals like us - the success of the EU project as it is now would be the same thing as the success of the neoliberal/globalisation project (ie becoming a region of an american/corporate world government (probably via TTIP and the like)). This makes sense as the EU was created by the CIA, according to this article (yes it's the telegraph, but it's Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (their only good one now Obourne left).

Saying all that i also agree with you and fubar too. I'm genuinely undecided (this doesn't usually happen to opinionated old me). I just know i don't like to be manipulated, and Project Fear is only going to push me away - I'd rather some positive arguments for the EU, but i suspect there actually aren't any when you get into the details, except as a potential:

... Some kind of sustained campaign needs to made to make the EU more democratic though, it's not accaptable to have unelected civil servants making decisions that affect us, if that really is the case.
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This is the Yanis Varoufakis argument (DIEM25) and i'd like it to be possible - but then i ask, which is more likely: rebelling and protesting leading to the downfall of a UK post-brexit tory government, or doing the same across the EU (although France seems quite on the case atm). I think i'm teetering towards holding my nose and doing a Yanis, and then some Goldman Sachs type comes on the telly and makes me teeter the other way.
 
A number of EU countries are said to be seeking reforms of some kind or other; if we remain I doubt whether it's beyond our government to form allegiencies with the other disaffected countries. But we can only do this from within Europe, and if we can help form a solid block of countries united in seeking reforms it should not be impossible. 'You may say im a dreamer, but i'm not the only one'.

If all that fails to happen and things do turn out to be worse in than worse out, we can always have another referendum. Where has it been pledged that we can only have one per generation. After the very same thing being said throughout the Scottish referendum, it wasn't very long afterwards until talk started of a possible second referendum. We have nothing to loose by staying in, especially a reformed EU, but everything to loose by leaving.

The only thing we'd gain by leaving would be getting Boris as PM, and that's a dubious gain. Sure it would be entertaining. But I hope he can do more than be entertaining and charismatic if he does become our next PM if there is a Brexit..He will have to stop making "facts" up for starters, if he is to have any credibility.
 
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mydrugbuddy said:
A number of EU countries are said to be seeking reforms of some kind or other; if we remain I doubt whether it's beyond our government to form allegiencies with the other disaffected countries. But we can only do this from within Europe, and if we can help form a solid block of countries united in seeking reforms it should not be impossible. 'You may say im a dreamer, but i'm not the only one'.

If all that fails to happen and things do turn out to be worse in than worse out, we can always have another referendum. Where has it been pledged that we can only have one per generation. After the very same thing being said throughout the Scottish referendum, it wasn't very long afterwards until talk started of a possible second referendum. We have nothing to loose by staying in, especially a reformed EU, but everything to loose by leaving.

The only thing we'd gain by leaving would be getting Boris as PM, and that's a dubious gain. Sure it would be entertaining. But I hope he can do more than be entertaining and charismatic if he does become our next PM if there is a Brexit..He will have to stop making "facts" up for starters, if he is to have any credibility.
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The thought of Boris as PM is frightening - he plays the buffoon very well, but I suspect a much darker side would soon be revealed if he attained that position...
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
The thought of Boris as PM is frightening - he plays the buffoon very well, but I suspect a much darker side would soon be revealed if he attained that position...
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His dark side has already been on display with that Darius Guppy business.

And good points MDB: there does seem to be a general shift away from mainstream politics across the world and a feeling that there might be a paradigm shift in the works - we can hope that we ride that wave to push europe to be more democratic and less neoliberal. I fear that we might have to go through a Trump/Clinton/LePenn world and its consequences first and come out the other side (if we make it).

I'm teetering over to remain again now (oh wait a minute, the WTO head has just come on the telly...)
 
Vurtual said:
His dark side has already been on display with that Darius Guppy business.

And good points MDB: there does seem to be a general shift away from mainstream politics across the world and a feeling that there might be a paradigm shift in the works - we can hope that we ride that wave to push europe to be more democratic and less neoliberal. I fear that we might have to go through a Trump/Clinton/LePenn world and its consequences first and come out the other side (if we make it).

I'm teetering over to remain again now (oh wait a minute, the WTO head has just come on the telly...)
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Neo-liberalism is literally written into the EU 'constitution' (the TFEU). That cannot be changed without ripping it up and starting over.

ABSTAIN

Remain will make certain of winning with propaganda over the next three weeks anyway. You don't have to feel guilty of possibly letting the nutters (Farage etc) win because it ain't gonna happen. But I can't vote with these people. And I can't vote for the protection of capitalism, which is what Remain is.

Fuck 'em. If you're a revolutionary socialist, don't vote.
 
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